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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Cullen wasn't very harsh on mages in Dragon Age Origins. He even seemed to dislike the grim duties templars had of putting down possessed mages. So to him the same mages he felt he was being friendly to rose up and brutally betrayed and tortured him.

[Huntress]

@ Dave of Canada.

Under terms which mages agreed to.

Mages didn't agree to be jailed or seen as cursed one since birth, if they agree to that, point me in the direction, please. the circle were meant to be a place to school young mages.
 
How is this related to what I said?

Not related at all! I like the sound of the voice in my head. lol!
   

Yes, this will totally make mages not scare everybody.

Mages do not need to do that, already being done by the chantry and the templars while they are in the circles...


You mean the actions of a man, not the Order?

Well many people saw Anders action good enough to destroy the gallows full of innocent mages, tell me if am wrong? tell me that you spare this mages that didn't took part of anders plans and were in cells since act3 started? Tell me why the mages can die and found guilty for one man idiocy but the templar order is not guilty  for allowing rapists and murderes? if you want to lie, check you're house mirror please, you will not fool anyone here, the chantry and the templar order are as guilty of whats happening as the mages are. Mages want to be free and templars want to keep them in check, the chantry fears another tevinter or having the black divine laugh her assoff infront of the white divine in orlais.
    
Mages using magic against anti-magic knights and most spread out religion in all of Thedas.
mages can use blood-magic and NOT become demons you know, thats the problem right, mages still can turn to blood mages and kill the templars.

Considering that's not possible, wonderful plan.

The chantry has the hole market of lyrium with the dwarves, is not difficult for them to gain the lyrium and even less when a boat "queen of Antiva" droped a few boxes on a templars door steps.

Who is "harroman"?
My bad:Lord Pyral Harrowmont

How is Loghain related to Uldred:
http://www.youtube.c...Fq9gqaqOU#t=57s

becoming an abomination and wiping out the Circle? That happen after wynne let the circle knows about loghain betrayel, a fight broke when uldred try to leave the circle and lost an internal battle with a pride demon.

Modifié par Huntress, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:19 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lets get that dead horse put to rest. The Gallows was not full of "innocent mages". Innocent of Anders' crime? Sure. Innocent in a general sense? Not at all.

And mages turning to blood magic to fight the Templars are NOT going to help the amges in the long term. They may win a few battles against the Templars, but they will lose the war, since no nation will ever support the mages if they use blood magic. And it will actually only serve to prove the Templars right that mages simply can't be trusted and must be contained in their Circles, or as Saarebas.

[Gervaise]

According to Orsino, when the original Gallows Circle was set up, it was used as a dumping ground for all the worst mages from the rest of Thedas, in his words those who were one step away from being executed or made tranquil (so apparently it is not illegal for this to occur or why would he say this).   So I have a theory that the same applied to the Templars sent to guard them.  May be those Templars who had gained a rather dodgy reputation were sent there instead of being thrown out of the order.   

This became a sort of established thinking with regard to Kirkwall Circle, so that even when they started taking young mages who had done nothing wrong, it still tended to be thought of as a place for dodgy mages, which was not helped by the fact that mages in Kirkwall failed their harrowing far more than in other places and had a tendancy to turn to blood magic.   Likewise, whilst local recruits to the Templar order might be genuinely devout and moral individuals like Keran, hardliners and other less savoury characters also tended to get posted there or may have actually requested the transfer.

Unless the developers inform us to the contrary, I will always take it that Kirkwall was the exception to the rule with regard to how Circles were generally run and the treatment of the mages by the majority of Templars.  That doesn't mean I will necessarily support their re-establishment in the same form, since I already had objections to them after Origins but I doubt that is going to be a possibility anyway.

[Xilizhra]

Lets get that dead horse put to rest. The Gallows was not full of "innocent mages". Innocent of Anders' crime? Sure. Innocent in a general sense? Not at all.

Of crimes that can be blamed wholly on the templars for inducing.

[Herr Uhl]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lets get that dead horse put to rest. The Gallows was not full of "innocent mages". Innocent of Anders' crime? Sure. Innocent in a general sense? Not at all.

Of crimes that can be blamed wholly on the templars for inducing.

Just like how every person that breaks the law is the fault of the policeman. I think it is a large contributing factor in this case, but I doubt that there is any collection of people that doesn't have any bad eggs.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lets get that dead horse put to rest. The Gallows was not full of "innocent mages". Innocent of Anders' crime? Sure. Innocent in a general sense? Not at all.

Of crimes that can be blamed wholly on the templars for inducing.

Templars didn't induce the crime called magic upon them.

[Sisterofshane]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lets get that dead horse put to rest. The Gallows was not full of "innocent mages". Innocent of Anders' crime? Sure. Innocent in a general sense? Not at all.

Of crimes that can be blamed wholly on the templars for inducing.

This is where I think the game could have been fleshed out a bit more.  I've played DA2 in respect of being both a templar supporter and a mage supporter, and I didn't really get the sense either way that the CIRCLE mages were guilty of anything.  There were plenty running free out in Kirkwall that were doing bad, and at the end many were sneaking out to conspire against Meredith, but enough to annul the entire CIrcle?  I never saw enough evidence for that, and it made me thoroughly sick to support the Templars in the end.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lets get that dead horse put to rest. The Gallows was not full of "innocent mages". Innocent of Anders' crime? Sure. Innocent in a general sense? Not at all.

Of crimes that can be blamed wholly on the templars for inducing.

Ah yes. I suppose you have diffinitive proof that the Templars started it all? No? Huh, I guess you are just making stuff up then...

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lets get that dead horse put to rest. The Gallows was not full of "innocent mages". Innocent of Anders' crime? Sure. Innocent in a general sense? Not at all.

Sure it was.  There were a few blood mages mixed in there, who you may or may not consider guilty of crimes, but most were only guilty if you consider being a mage makes you inherently not innocent.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There were blood mages and conspirators both within the Circle, if Orsino had done his job and allowed the search, the whole situation would've been difused long before it culminated in war. But of course that would have cost his own life, and he was too much of a coward to ever lay down his own life for his fellows. Too bad really.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 16 novembre 2011 - 11:35 .

[AlexXIV]

I think Uldred and what happens in Kirkwall is only partly related. Uldred was a renegade mage, but he was first and foremost a bad person. I honestly think I would turn to bloodmagic if I was a mage and my enemies can nullify all but blood magic. Also, some people probably don't mind being locked in a golden cage. But I personally think a golden cage is still a cage. And the way templars are lording over mages is more than a provocation. There is nothing humble or sacrificial about their 'service'. They are full of paranoia and prejudice. Cullen is a good example. In DA:O he is obviously mostly scared if not panicked. I mean people like that should not be templars. Fear as they say is a good servant but a bad master.

So yeah Meredith's and by that the templar's actions managed to convince mages to turn to bloodmagic because they at some point realized that they never get a chance, not even if playing nice. That Bethany didn't turn to bloodmagic is all fine and nice, but if they didn't have bloodmages at all, the templars would have had an even easier job to kill them. So if all were like Bethany then there wouldn't even have been much of a fight.

The templars basically get what they ask for. I mean it is not hard to understand why a circle mage in Kirkwall would turn to bloodmagic. It is probably less curiousity, more self defense. And we all saw what happenend, Meredith forced an Annulment and so every bloodmage who warned the circle mages that something like that would happen would have been right in the end.

Also about alliance. I think mages that turn to bloodmages in the war don't need to hope for other allies. If many or most mages would use it there would be little to no chance for the templars to win this war. Since against bloodmagic, which is the most powerful there is, they have no defense.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There were blood mages and conspirators both within the Circle, if Orsino had done his job and allowed the search, the whole situation would've been difused long before it culminated in war. But of course that would have cost his own life, and he was too much of a coward to ever lay down his own life for his fellows. Too bad really.

Orsino's job is to stand up for his mages.  Even Meredith acknowledges this at one point IIRC.

And if Meredith had been allowed to search, then she'd have just used any evidence that she found as an excuse to annull the circle - and if she still didn't find any majorly incriminating evidence, she'd have seen that as evidence that things were being hidden and annulled the circle.

Not that it would have made any difference at all, since Anders would still blow up the Chantry.

And of course none of that would in any case stop the tower from being full of innocent mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Templars still have their resistance to magic and trainning in hunting ALL kinds of mages, especially blood mages. And with the mages turning to blood amges, every nation in Thedas would turn to aid the Templars, since a blood mage's existance cannot be tolerated by any sovereign state, which isn't ruled by blood mages itself.

[Realmzmaster]

The problem is that this war will not just be Mage and Templar. Like any war it will spillover into other areas and collateral damage on a large scale will occur. Also if the fight starts to spill into lands like the Dwarven kingdom I do believe we will see both mages and templars attacked in that case. The Quanri nor Tevinter will want to see this war spreading to their holdings. The conflict could escalate into world war with nations taking sided.

[WhiteKnyght]

Note: This topic is not an assault on Cullen's character. It's an assault of his repeating Templar BS.

GodWood wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
..is utterly ridiculous. If anything, it happened because they are too strict.

This statement is utterly ridiculous.
The Fereldan circle was incredibly lenient.

Tell that to Wynne who had her son stolen from her just for being the child of a mage. She might not even know that Rhys is her son in Asunder.

The Circle in Ferelden was not lenient. It's just that the way Meredith ran the Gallows made it look better by comparison.

Also if Greagoir had been more willing to send mages to Ostagar, the battle might not have been such a disaster-- with or without Loghain's aid. Out of hundreds of mages that were imprisoned in Kinloch Hold, they only sent SEVEN mages. One of whom was TRANQUIL.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Huntress wrote...

The templars are pushing the mages all the time

 
Under terms which mages agreed to.

Under terms which mages from a thousand years ago agreed to.*

A pack of idiots who were guilty over Andraste agreed to those terms. Willing participants, a religous militia, and permissions from kings and other rulers royally screwed up the future for millions of people.

These days plenty of mages speak agains their oppression, but were cowed into submission through intimidation.

The Templars take mages at a young age and put them in a place where they learn magic and few other useful/liveable skills and throw the fact that they can negate their spells in their faces. Instilling
a sense of hopelessness and fear. Which makes idiots like Wynne believe
the only way they can live is to bend over and take in the arse.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 17 novembre 2011 - 12:09 .

[Urzon]

[quote]The Grey Nayr wrote...

Tell that to Wynne who had her son stolen from her just for being the child of a mage. She might not even know that Rhys is her son in Asunder.

The Circle in Ferelden was not lenient. It's just that the way Meredith ran the Gallows made it look better by comparison.

Also if Greagoir had been more willing to send mages to Ostagar, the battle might not have been such a disaster-- with or without Loghain's aid. Out of hundreds of mages that were imprisoned in Kinloch Hold, they only sent SEVEN mages. One of whom was TRANQUIL. [/quote]

That isn't the Circle Tower fault.  Them taking away the child is a Chantry policy for all mages in all Circles, and it wasn't Greagoir's fault only seven mages went to Ostagar. His job is to only guard the mages in the Tower. The Grand Cleric has the final say in how many mages get sent where.
[/quote]

[quote] The Templars still have their resistance to magic and trainning in hunting ALL kinds of mages, especially blood mages. And with the mages turning to blood amges, every nation in Thedas would turn to aid the Templars, since a blood mage's existance cannot be tolerated by any sovereign state, which isn't ruled by blood mages itself. [/quote]

Which is true, but it will be a little to harder for the sovereign states to support a group that broke away from the Chantry. If they opening supported the templars (no matter how juste their cause is), it is still a slight against the Chantry. Since the Chantry is the main religon of the land, anyone that supports a rebel group that broke away from (openly/publicly mind you) it is basically saying the Chantry is wrong in the matter. Which is a BIG No No. Even if it is against blood mages.

The Chantry most likely wanted to try and solve the Mage/Templar war as peacefully as possible (the mages returning to the Circles). The templar disagreed, and they might have want the more "direct" approach (killing them) to the matter. If the soveriegn state supported the templars then, they will be supporting war against most if not all the mages. Not to mention, they will be obviously going against what the Chantry is saying what should be done. Which wouldn't go over well with the general population.

Sure, there are going to be alot of the common folk that agree with the templars. They are trying to get ride of the evil blood mages after all. Something they have been told since they were child, that those kinds of mages are the worse kind of evil and should be killed, but doing so would be going against what the Chantry says. People then start to loss their belief in the Chantry, and begin to think the Chantry is wrong on the matter.

Then the fanatical bloodthirsty mobs begin...

They find a mage. They try and kill the mage thinking they might be a bloodmage. Mage defend him/herself and kills some of the mob members before getting killed him/herself. The mob thinks it proved itself right, because if the mage wasn't evil he/she wouldn't have killed their people. They spread the word, and more people join the mobs.

All the while the Chantry is falling to pieces...

Modifié par Urzon, 17 novembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[dragonflight288]

That isn't the Circle Tower fault. Them taking away the child is a Chantry policy for all mages in all Circles, and it wasn't Greagoir's fault only seven mages went to Ostagar. His job is to only guard the mages in the Tower. The Grand Cleric has the final say in how many mages get sent where.

In the Mage Origin, he was staunchly opposed sending so many mages to Ostagar. He didn't want to send seven mages. And he absolutely did not want Amell or Surana to become a Grey Warden, even if they reported Jowan. He was arguing with Irving when the Warden meets Duncan for the first time over sending so many mages to Ostagar and the army wanting more of them.

Granted, later he supports the mages going to war because quite frankly, the blight changes everything.

Which is true, but it will be a little to harder for the sovereign states to support a group that broke away from the Chantry. If they opening supported the templars (no matter how juste their cause is), it is still a slight against the Chantry. Since the Chantry is the main religon of the land, anyone that supports a rebel group that broke away from (openly/publicly mind you) it is basically saying the Chantry is wrong in the matter. Which is a BIG No No. Even if it is against blood mages.

The Chantry most likely wanted to try and solve the Mage/Templar war as peacefully as possible (the mages returning to the Circles). The templar disagreed, and they might have want the more "direct" approach (killing them) to the matter. If the soveriegn state supported the templars then, they will be supporting war against most if not all the mages. Not to mention, they will be obviously going against what the Chantry is saying what should be done. Which wouldn't go over well with the general population.

Sure, there are going to be alot of the common folk that agree with the templars. They are trying to get ride of the evil blood mages after all. Something they have been told since they were child, that those kinds of mages are the worse kind of evil and should be killed, but doing so would be going against what the Chantry says. People then start to loss their belief in the Chantry, and begin to think the Chantry is wrong on the matter.

Then the fanatical bloodthirsty mobs begin...

They find a mage. They try and kill the mage thinking they might be a bloodmage. Mage defend him/herself and kills some of the mob members before getting killed him/herself. The mob thinks it proved itself right, because if the mage wasn't evil he/she wouldn't have killed their people. They spread the word, and more people join the mobs.

All the while the Chantry is falling to pieces...

All true. But it's important to remember that the templars had been recruited largely from religious fanatics who believe the Maker sanctions everything they do and that all magic is unholy and a curse. And those same templars are also addicted to lyrium. There will NOT be enough lyrium smugglers to supply an entire army of templars lyrium, nor will they have the coin to continually purchase it as Templar's are not allowed land and property.

Most sovereigns will not support a bunch of drug fanatics running around trying to get their fix. Templars who go long periods of time without lyrium will either die or go insane from the withdrawal.

If a sovereign supports the templars, they'll have to establish a lyrium supply to keep the templar's support and not out raping and pillaging their countries for lyrium and supplies.

Orzammar may see a huge rise in business.

[TEWR]

HiroVoid wrote...

Well, they have magic, so they aren't people like us.

That's not what Cullen says though. If it was what he said, there wouldn't be an issue. But he just says that they aren't people at all and that they are just weapons.

That's how the Qunari partially view their mages. At least the Qunari respect the Saarebas and -- in their own warped way -- care for them.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 
Under terms which mages agreed to.

Supposedly. I question the validity of it, though I will not dismiss it outright simply because it was Sister Petrine who wrote it.

 
You mean the actions of a man, not the Order?

It was widespread within the ranks of Kirkwall's Templars. Alrik and Kerras, and Alain even says that the Templars "ask" things of them even if Kerras was killed.

I'm unsure of whether or not it happens elsewhere, but I believe that no one would take the word of a mage on what was happening. There'd be no way to really prove it. It would end up being the Templar rapist's word against that of the mage victim's.

Now, unless there was a very rational Knight-Commander willing to investigate, I doubt the mage would be believed. He might even be Tranquiled.

Or just told to never bring it up again.

In either case, he's stuck being raped again under possible pain of death and there are only three ways out: suicide, killing the Templar, or going apostate.

And apparently the mage would still be blamed for all of that.

Mages using magic against anti-magic knights and most spread out religion in all of Thedas.

Wonderful idea to establish the thought that mages should be freed.

We don't know if they're fighting a legitimate frontal assault against the Templars or just hiding out. Both Kirkwall and Ferelden have become more pro-mage and more anti-Templar/anti-Chantry over the years. We also don't know what they might be doing. They might be helping the common folk as a way to show that the Templars aren't completely right about how mages should be treated.

Also, we don't know the events of Asunder. That's supposedly key to what's going on now.

Who is "harroman"?

Either Harrowmont or Lord Harrimann.

How is Loghain related to Uldred becoming an abomination and wiping out the Circle?

Loghain's related to Uldred's coup. Speak to Wynne, Niall, and maybe even the First Enchanter and they say that Uldred and Loghain were going to team up in exchange for the Circle being freed from Chantry control.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Well, they have magic, so they aren't people like us.

That's not what Cullen says though. If it was what he said, there wouldn't be an issue. But he just says that they aren't people at all and that they are just weapons.

That's how the Qunari partially view their mages. At least the Qunari respect the Saarebas and -- in their own warped way -- care for them.

That's exactly what he says. He doesn't say they aren't people. He says they cannot be treated as people. "They are not like you and me" because "At any moment any mage could become a monster. "He's talking about how dangerous they are.

[TEWR]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Lets get that dead horse put to rest. The Gallows was not full of "innocent mages". Innocent of Anders' crime? Sure. Innocent in a general sense? Not at all.

Of crimes that can be blamed wholly on the templars for inducing.

Just like how every person that breaks the law is the fault of the policeman. I think it is a large contributing factor in this case, but I doubt that there is any collection of people that doesn't have any bad eggs.

The police don't rape, torture, round up, slaughter, and who knows what else to the citizens. Whoever breaks the law in our society does it of their own volition.

I'd say that most -- if not all -- of the mages that committed crimes only did so because of the Templars.

Which isn't to say that Kirkwall may not have been home to some bad eggs naturally. It most likely was. But we don't really see much of the bad eggs within the Circle.

Of those that we do see, we have accounts from various people that prior to joining Kirkwall's Circle they weren't malicious.

Quentin is the only bad egg, and he's possibly from Starkhaven and was obviously very mentally disturbed and just barely clinging to sanity prior to his wife's death. And the Chantry doesn't teach the mages how to handle grief like that, which is a big mistake.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Cullen wasn't very harsh on mages in Dragon Age Origins. He even seemed to dislike the grim duties templars had of putting down possessed mages. So to him the same mages he felt he was being friendly to rose up and brutally betrayed and tortured him.

He also begins to act irrationally about the mages in the Mage Origin. At first he's kinda pro-mage -- or just lenient -- but you can clearly see from his dialogue that he's been entertaining a few different thoughts in his head.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Most sovereigns will not support a bunch of drug fanatics running around trying to get their fix. Templars who go long periods of time without lyrium will either die or go insane from the withdrawal.

If a sovereign supports the templars, they'll have to establish a lyrium supply to keep the templar's support and not out raping and pillaging their countries for lyrium and supplies.

Orzammar may see a huge rise in business.

NO. The withdrawal will not kill any Templar or drive them insane. The insanity in a Templar is a result of prolonged use of lyrium, called Lyrium Addlement, not a result of the withdrawal. As is seen in Samson, withdrawal is like having a bad itch that you can't scratch, but it just takes discipline and willpower to overcome any withdrrawal.

Nor is any nation going to worry toomuch about Lyrium, since peasants don't have any lyrium, the Templars won't be "raping and pillaging" to get it from them. Every Chantry must've had a supply of lyrium which the Templars can simply take, without killing anyone, since the Chantry is in no posistion to defend their lyrium stores, having lost the soldiers which defended them.
Besides, Lyrium is not going to be hard to acquire since the Chantry has also lost it's power to enforce its monopoly on lyrium trade.
So basically lyrium is one the least concerns in the whole conflict.