105 réponses à ce sujet

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Most sovereigns will not support a bunch of drug fanatics running around trying to get their fix. Templars who go long periods of time without lyrium will either die or go insane from the withdrawal.

If a sovereign supports the templars, they'll have to establish a lyrium supply to keep the templar's support and not out raping and pillaging their countries for lyrium and supplies.

Orzammar may see a huge rise in business.

NO. The withdrawal will not kill any Templar or drive them insane. The insanity in a Templar is a result of prolonged use of lyrium, called Lyrium Addlement, not a result of the withdrawal. As is seen in Samson, withdrawal is like having a bad itch that you can't scratch, but it just takes discipline and willpower to overcome any withdrrawal.

Your both right. Both cases causes insanity. Samson still gets his lyrium fix thats why he is not insane yet. Irminric on the other hand seems to have completely lost touch with reality.

Nor is any nation going to worry toomuch about Lyrium, since peasants don't have any lyrium, the Templars won't be "raping and pillaging" to get it from them.

Perhaps not for lyrium. but they still need food water nad other supplies. And history has shown that rogue armies need to "procure"it from the local peasants.

Every Chantry must've had a supply of lyrium which the Templars can simply take, without killing anyone, since the Chantry is in no posistion to defend their lyrium stores, having lost the soldiers which defended them.

If thats true mages will do the same thing. And most likely this is not true. Their are more parties interrested in lyrium then just the mages and templars

Besides, Lyrium is not going to be hard to acquire since the Chantry has also lost it's power to enforce its monopoly on lyrium trade.
So basically lyrium is one the least concerns in the whole conflict.

LOL? before this lyrium whent straight to the templars. Now its scatterd as hell and you say its and improvement.just LOL

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...
Your both right. Both cases causes insanity. Samson still gets his lyrium fix thats why he is not insane yet. Irminric on the other hand seems to have completely lost touch with reality.

Irminric was suffering from withdrawal. Temporary insanity can be  sympton of several different kinds of withdrawals. Permanent insanity is NOT a sympton of withdrawal. Once you get through the rough patch, you will be clear minded again.

DKJaigen wrote...
Perhaps not for lyrium. but they still need food water nad other supplies. And history has shown that rogue armies need to "procure"it from the local peasants.

Given that Templars probably have a treasury of their own, since they got fortresses all around Thedas which would all need upkeep, the Templars aren't going to have to kill anyone for the first long time. And they could just start taking donations from different villages, for saving their asses from those of the mages who are going to prey on the commoners.

DKJaigen wrote...
If thats true mages will do the same thing. And most likely this is not true. Their are more parties interrested in lyrium then just the mages and templars

Mages will do the same thing. Everyone will try to get their hands on the lyrium, which means it will also be more accesible. If everyone starts having lyrium, you can get lyrium everywhere. That is how something being everywhere works.

DKJaigen wrote...
LOL? before this lyrium whent straight to the templars. Now its scatterd as hell and you say its and improvement.just LOL

I will refer you to my previous statement...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 17 novembre 2011 - 11:25 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Urzon wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Tell that to Wynne who had her son stolen from her just for being the child of a mage. She might not even know that Rhys is her son in Asunder.

The Circle in Ferelden was not lenient. It's just that the way Meredith ran the Gallows made it look better by comparison.

Also if Greagoir had been more willing to send mages to Ostagar, the battle might not have been such a disaster-- with or without Loghain's aid. Out of hundreds of mages that were imprisoned in Kinloch Hold, they only sent SEVEN mages. One of whom was TRANQUIL.

That isn't the Circle Tower fault.  Them taking away the child is a Chantry policy for all mages in all Circles, and it wasn't Greagoir's fault only seven mages went to Ostagar. His job is to only guard the mages in the Tower. The Grand Cleric has the final say in how many mages get sent where.

The Circle of Magi is the Chantry's prison for mages. It's just as much the Circle's fault as the Templars and Chantry that people's children get stolen.

Also you're wrong about the Grand Cleric. Irving was the one who chose to uphold the treaty the mages have with the Wardens. And when Duncan came to the tower for the same reason, Greagoir was complaining about it and Duncan only got one recruit.

Besides, the KING ordered the Circle to aid them against the blight and 7 mages isn't helping. It's a token gesture.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Urzon wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Tell that to Wynne who had her son stolen from her just for being the child of a mage. She might not even know that Rhys is her son in Asunder.

The Circle in Ferelden was not lenient. It's just that the way Meredith ran the Gallows made it look better by comparison.

Also if Greagoir had been more willing to send mages to Ostagar, the battle might not have been such a disaster-- with or without Loghain's aid. Out of hundreds of mages that were imprisoned in Kinloch Hold, they only sent SEVEN mages. One of whom was TRANQUIL.

That isn't the Circle Tower fault.  Them taking away the child is a Chantry policy for all mages in all Circles, and it wasn't Greagoir's fault only seven mages went to Ostagar. His job is to only guard the mages in the Tower. The Grand Cleric has the final say in how many mages get sent where.

The Circle of Magi is the Chantry's prison for mages. It's just as much the Circle's fault as the Templars and Chantry that people's children get stolen.

Also you're wrong about the Grand Cleric. Irving was the one who chose to uphold the treaty the mages have with the Wardens. And when Duncan came to the tower for the same reason, Greagoir was complaining about it and Duncan only got one recruit.

Besides, the KING ordered the Circle to aid them against the blight and 7 mages isn't helping. It's a token gesture.

The children aren't "stolen" from the mages. They are taken away. Stolen would imply a crime is commited, but what happens in the Circle is fully within the laws, and even rational, since it is not a safe enviroment for a child to grow up.

7 mages IS a  lot of help, considering there was no mages otherwise. Also you have no idea how many mages actually volunteered to join the army. And furthermore, more than 7 mages may also endanger the army, since mages can and do become abominations at the most inoppertune times.
Also, you don't send everything you got into a single battle, especially not a battle you will still have a chance of losing. If more amges had been sent and the battle still lost, the Circle would've been crippled and incapable of assisting Ferelden in the Blight. Which would be quite bad.

[Sons of Horus]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Urzon wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Tell that to Wynne who had her son stolen from her just for being the child of a mage. She might not even know that Rhys is her son in Asunder.

The Circle in Ferelden was not lenient. It's just that the way Meredith ran the Gallows made it look better by comparison.

Also if Greagoir had been more willing to send mages to Ostagar, the battle might not have been such a disaster-- with or without Loghain's aid. Out of hundreds of mages that were imprisoned in Kinloch Hold, they only sent SEVEN mages. One of whom was TRANQUIL.

That isn't the Circle Tower fault.  Them taking away the child is a Chantry policy for all mages in all Circles, and it wasn't Greagoir's fault only seven mages went to Ostagar. His job is to only guard the mages in the Tower. The Grand Cleric has the final say in how many mages get sent where.

The Circle of Magi is the Chantry's prison for mages. It's just as much the Circle's fault as the Templars and Chantry that people's children get stolen.

Also you're wrong about the Grand Cleric. Irving was the one who chose to uphold the treaty the mages have with the Wardens. And when Duncan came to the tower for the same reason, Greagoir was complaining about it and Duncan only got one recruit.

Besides, the KING ordered the Circle to aid them against the blight and 7 mages isn't helping. It's a token gesture.

Those were some powerful mages though including the senior enchanters Wynne and Uldred. Remember 7 mages can really do a lot of damage and these are some of Ferelden’s most powerful. Hardly a token force.

As for Duncan, of course he would like to recruit as many mages of quality as possible.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Irminric was suffering from withdrawal. Temporary insanity can be  sympton of several different kinds of withdrawals. Permanent insanity is NOT a sympton of withdrawal. Once you get through the rough patch, you will be clear minded again.

Mate stop pulling things from your ass. That tibid of information is never given.

Given that Templars probably have a treasury of their own, since they got fortresses all around Thedas which would all need upkeep, the Templars aren't going to have to kill anyone for the first long time. And they could just start taking donations from different villages, for saving their asses from those of the mages who are going to prey on the commoners.

Probaly not. Because if you want to control a bunch of lyrium addicted junkies you do not give them a large sack of gold. Its far more likely that the chantry controlled the treasury. Worst case scenario for the templars is if they where financed by the formari.

Mages will do the same thing. Everyone will try to get their hands on the lyrium, which means it will also be more accesible. If everyone starts having lyrium, you can get lyrium everywhere. That is how something being everywhere works.

Dude seriously it does not work. Being everyone doesnt mean its at the right spot. And if others gain lyrium it means the templars have less lyrium. But that bit logic seems to escape you

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Templars still have their resistance to magic and trainning in hunting ALL kinds of mages, especially blood mages. And with the mages turning to blood amges, every nation in Thedas would turn to aid the Templars, since a blood mage's existance cannot be tolerated by any sovereign state, which isn't ruled by blood mages itself.

Well I think the lore says that templars have trouble resisting bloodmagic, and also that it is the most powerful and dangerous. Dangerous enough to cause things like the Blight and probably worse. And that's basically how Uldred could take over the mages tower. If they can only mind control a part of the templar army it is enough to give them a tough break. They are not all willpower-supermen. Also we saw in Kirkwall already that not all templars stand as one behind their leader or commander. So if the templars seperate from the chantry I can imagine that some chantry-loyal templars stick with them rather than going with the rogue templars who put the law in their own hands like a lynch mob. Basically I suspect that the templars lose about half their force just by former templars quitting their job and either support the Chantry, the mages, or maybe just return home and help defend their families. And I doubt the 'fallen' templars will have too much support in the general population either for the mere fact that they split from the chantry. Fear of mages or not, most people still believe in the Maker and Him being represented by the Chantry. And without backup from 'divine right', templars are just a group of genocidal warmongers. Killing because they can.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 novembre 2011 - 01:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Irminric was suffering from withdrawal. Temporary insanity can be  sympton of several different kinds of withdrawals. Permanent insanity is NOT a sympton of withdrawal. Once you get through the rough patch, you will be clear minded again.

Mate stop pulling things from your ass. That tibid of information is never given.

I'm talking about actual real world withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal in our world are rarely fatal (and often not actually fatal, but the addict dies from lack of sustenance or other).

DKJaigen wrote...

Given that Templars probably have a treasury of their own, since they got fortresses all around Thedas which would all need upkeep, the Templars aren't going to have to kill anyone for the first long time. And they could just start taking donations from different villages, for saving their asses from those of the mages who are going to prey on the commoners.

Probaly not. Because if you want to control a bunch of lyrium addicted junkies you do not give them a large sack of gold. Its far more likely that the chantry controlled the treasury. Worst case scenario for the templars is if they where financed by the formari.

If you want them to controll and upkeep their fortresses you HAVE to give them money to be able to do so. Especially since tehre is no internet or banks in Thedas, so the Chantry would ahve to place actual sacks of gold in the fortresses which would need them.

DKJaigen wrote...

Mages will do the same thing. Everyone will try to get their hands on the lyrium, which means it will also be more accesible. If everyone starts having lyrium, you can get lyrium everywhere. That is how something being everywhere works.

Dude seriously it does not work. Being everyone doesnt mean its at the right spot. And if others gain lyrium it means the templars have less lyrium. But that bit logic seems to escape you

The Templars didn't "have" any lyrium to start with. They could only get it through the Chantry. Now taht everybody can get it, the Templars can get it from anywhere, without your scenario of pillaging and killing villagers. And as I've said before, they won't even need to buy it anytime soon, since they already got their own stores with lyrium, which has to run dry (or be clsoe to empty), before the Templars have to buy more.

[maxernst]

From what we see, it might not have been inappropriate to send only seven mages. The ones we know he sent (Uldred and Wynne) were both senior enchanters; they may well all have been among the best mages available. Also, Irving's comment to Wynne that "she was never one to shy away from adventure" suggests to me that Wynne's seen battle outside the Circle Tower before.

Just from what we see in the games, it looks to me like mages don't just turn into abominations at random times,they turn into abominations when in desperate, extremely stressful situations. If you send a large number of inexperienced mages who've lived in a tower and never been forced to fight for their lives before into a war, I think it's almost inevitable that some of them would turn into abominations. My suspicion is that Wynne is typical of the mages that were sent to Ostagar, mages that he was most confident could handle the situation. Although, as Uldred shows, experience is no guarantee that you won't become an abomination in the right circumstances.

@EmperorS--are you sure Thedas doesn't have some form of banking? I would find that surprising, given its overall "high medieval" feel.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm talking about actual real world withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal in our world are rarely fatal (and often not actually fatal, but the addict dies from lack of sustenance or other).

But this is lyrium and we have no way of knowing whats it effects are  of long term withdrawal. so stop pulling "facts°  from your ass

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If you want them to controll and upkeep their fortresses you HAVE to give them money to be able to do so. Especially since tehre is no internet or banks in Thedas, so the Chantry would ahve to place actual sacks of gold in the fortresses which would need them.

They have to give nothing. Most likely a cleric  trained in financial matters handeld such matters for the templars.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Templars didn't "have" any lyrium to start with. They could only get it through the Chantry. Now taht everybody can get it, the Templars can get it from anywhere, without your scenario of pillaging and killing villagers. And as I've said before, they won't even need to buy it anytime soon, since they already got their own stores with lyrium, which has to run dry (or be clsoe to empty), before the Templars have to buy more.

You realise that now everybody has it that they are going to bleed the templars dry of gold. what you describe is a black marketeers wet dream.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm talking about actual real world withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal in our world are rarely fatal (and often not actually fatal, but the addict dies from lack of sustenance or other).

[/quote]
But this is lyrium and we have no way of knowing whats it effects are  of long term withdrawal. so stop pulling "facts°  from your ass[/quote]
Its called logical deduction... I wouldn't expect you to understand. I can try and explain this to you... You have an unknown, which shares many similarities with something you already know well. Therefore you assume that it will have a similar outcome. Death and insanity being an absolute rarity to actual withdrawal, it is only logical to assume the same for lyrium, until otherwise stated.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If you want them to controll and upkeep their fortresses you HAVE to give them money to be able to do so. Especially since tehre is no internet or banks in Thedas, so the Chantry would ahve to place actual sacks of gold in the fortresses which would need them.
[/quote]

They have to give nothing. Most likely a cleric  trained in financial matters handeld such matters for the templars.[/quote]
And this Cleric is going to haul off with the treasury from a fortress all on his own? Gotcha....

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Templars didn't "have" any lyrium to start with. They could only get it through the Chantry. Now taht everybody can get it, the Templars can get it from anywhere, without your scenario of pillaging and killing villagers. And as I've said before, they won't even need to buy it anytime soon, since they already got their own stores with lyrium, which has to run dry (or be clsoe to empty), before the Templars have to buy more.
[/quote]

You realise that now everybody has it that they are going to bleed the templars dry of gold. what you describe is a black marketeers wet dream.[/quote]
[/quote]
And you of course realize that the countryside will be fileld with an unusual high amount of rampaging abominations and mages, which the people will want removed. Gold and lyrium is what the Templars will accept as payments, for handling the people's problems.
Since trading lyrium won't be illegal after the Chantry can't enforce their monopoly, it won't be a black market, but just a plain regular supply and demand.

[Realmzmaster]

Irminric is suffering from lyrium withdrawal as stated by Alistair if you have him with you. If lyrium follows the same psychological and physiological affects as the real-world drugs (dependent on the drug) it is modeled on once Irminric is given lyrium the effects of the withdrawal will reverse. But there is a difference between addiction and physical dependence. Addiction is a psychological state. Physical dependence is physiological state. Some drugs do both.

Irminric may have only a physiological dependence on the drug not necessarily an addiction which is psychological. It is the physical dependence that is affecting the mind and body.

He is most likely disoriented and delusional not temporarily insane. He is lucid enough to ask that you give his ring to his sister and have her pray for him. But , this my humble opinion.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Irminric is suffering from lyrium withdrawal as stated by Alistair if you have him with you. If lyrium follows the same psychological and physiological affects as the real-world drugs (dependent on the drug) it is modeled on once Irminric is given lyrium the effects of the withdrawal will reverse. But there is a difference between addiction and physical dependence. Addiction is a psychological state. Physical dependence is physiological state. Some drugs do both.

Irminric may have only a physiological dependence on the drug not necessarily an addiction which is psychological. It is the physical dependence that is affecting the mind and body.

He is most likely disoriented and delusional not temporarily insane. He is lucid enough to ask that you give his ring to his sister and have her pray for him. But , this my humble opinion.

Physical dependency aren't all that lethal either (or common), and are treated by giving minimal amount of the drug in question. So if the Templars actually do end up having a hard time getting lyrium, they will have to ration their leftover lyrium, which will in turn naturally downgrade their physical dependency (if they even get those), which would in turn eliminate their lyrium problem altogether. So while you are right, I still maintain my point, that lyrium will be the least concern of the Templars.

[maxernst]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Irminric is suffering from lyrium withdrawal as stated by Alistair if you have him with you. If lyrium follows the same psychological and physiological affects as the real-world drugs (dependent on the drug) it is modeled on once Irminric is given lyrium the effects of the withdrawal will reverse. But there is a difference between addiction and physical dependence. Addiction is a psychological state. Physical dependence is physiological state. Some drugs do both.

Irminric may have only a physiological dependence on the drug not necessarily an addiction which is psychological. It is the physical dependence that is affecting the mind and body.

He is most likely disoriented and delusional not temporarily insane. He is lucid enough to ask that you give his ring to his sister and have her pray for him. But , this my humble opinion.

Physical dependency aren't all that lethal either (or common), and are treated by giving minimal amount of the drug in question. So if the Templars actually do end up having a hard time getting lyrium, they will have to ration their leftover lyrium, which will in turn naturally downgrade their physical dependency (if they even get those), which would in turn eliminate their lyrium problem altogether. So while you are right, I still maintain my point, that lyrium will be the least concern of the Templars.

Perhaps that's what they should do, but counting on addicts to be able to ration themselves is not a safe bet.  It's clear for example that Samsun has not been able to do that, though it would obviously be in his best interests to do so.  He's still a lyrium addict years after leaving the Templars.

[DKJaigen]

¨EmperorSahlertz wrote...


Its called logical deduction... I wouldn't expect you to understand. I can try and explain this to you... You have an unknown, which shares many similarities with something you already know well. Therefore you assume that it will have a similar outcome. Death and insanity being an absolute rarity to actual withdrawal, it is only logical to assume the same for lyrium, until otherwise stated.

its still pulling facts from your ass. You dont know it to be certain so stfu about.

And this Cleric is going to haul off with the treasury from a fortress all on his own? Gotcha....

Who says the treasury is in the fortress

And you of course realize that the countryside will be fileld with an unusual high amount of rampaging abominations and mages,

Along with a pillaging templar army. templars are not bound by moral code an as such are far worse then mages who are. This something the population will find out the hard way.

which the people will want removed. Gold and lyrium is what the Templars will accept as payments, for handling the people's problems.

I think the people will gladly pay the mages to safe them from the templars.

Since trading lyrium won't be illegal after the Chantry can't enforce their monopoly, it won't be a black market, but just a plain regular supply and demand.

You ****ing hypocrite. first you blabber how chantry law  must be obeyed but when its inconvenient you simply ignore it. That the chantry is not able to maintain the laws doesnt mean its not illegal.

[Urzon]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The Circle of Magi is the Chantry's prison for mages. It's just as much the Circle's fault as the Templars and Chantry that people's children get stolen.

Also you're wrong about the Grand Cleric. Irving was the one who chose to uphold the treaty the mages have with the Wardens. And when Duncan came to the tower for the same reason, Greagoir was complaining about it and Duncan only got one recruit.

Besides, the KING ordered the Circle to aid them against the blight and 7 mages isn't helping. It's a token gesture.

It is a policy of the Chantry, aka: it's a law. There is nothing criminal about it. Sad as it is, it is better for the child to go Chantry than to stay at the Circle. Unless of course, you want to raise a completely defenseless baby around a bunch of children learning magic, that have no control what so ever. Not to mention, the random abominations that gets into the tower either by possession of humans or animals.

Yes, Irving is did uphold the treaty with the Grey Warden. You have to remember that he was only allowed to go because Greagoir said it was ok. Irving might be in control of all the mages, but it is Greagoir's job to guard and contain the mages, but since it was during a Blight; Greagoir thought it was in his best (and the Chantry's) interest to allow them to go.

Duncun would be well within his rights, as the Warden Commander, if he recruited all the mages within the Circle Tower. Would that be the right thing to do? No. It all comes down to politics. The Chantry doesn't like to lose control of the mages it has, and one going to the Grey Wardens (in it's mind) is losing control of one. As seen by Anders. Since the Grey Wardens are a neutral faction, it is best for them not to anger as many powerful organizations as possible. The Chantry being close to the top of that list, since it covers most of Thedas. While Greagoir didn't like losing that single mage, Duncan had the right to recuit him/her, but if he recuited more than that single one; that might have damaged the relationship between the Grey Wardens and the Chantry.

While seven mages might not seem like alot, there were alot of very powerful mages in that group. Not to mention, it isn't a good idea for alot of mages to be on a battlefield, since mages have to open themselves up to the Fade to cast spell. On the battlefield, alot of blood is going to be split, and alot of people are going to die. If a whole army of mages are opening the Fade in that area, with all that blood and death; there is a chance the mages might accidently rip the Veil open. Which could unlease all kinds of madness.

[DKJaigen]

Urzon wrote...

While seven mages might not seem like alot, there were alot of very powerful mages in that group. Not to mention, it isn't a good idea for alot of mages to be on a battlefield, since mages have to open themselves up to the Fade to cast spell. On the battlefield, alot of blood is going to be split, and alot of people are going to die. If a whole army of mages are opening the Fade in that area, with all that blood and death; there is a chance the mages might accidently rip the Veil open. Which could unlease all kinds of madness.

Magic doesnt work that way.

[Urzon]

DKJaigen wrote...

Magic doesnt work that way.

Magic originates from the Fade, the realm where Spirits dwell and humans and elves visit when they dream. As such, using it can draw the attention of the beings on the other side of the Veil, leading to an increased risk of demonic possession.

Mages can only cast spell if they pull magic from the Fade, thus they have to form a connection to it to pull in magic. That is how the templar abilities work, they can server this connection to the Fade and stop the mage's spellcasting. The only spells that get around this is spells powered by blood magic.

Death, spilled blood, and repeated spell casting can weaken the Veil in the area. The biggest example of this is Kirkwall. Since the magisters basically build the whole city on a lake of blood, the Veil in the area is super thin, next to nonexistent, and the Veil can't heal itself since they build the city in a rune pattern to stop it happening.

And, it has been stated in lore before that places where great battles (or death) has happen had the Veil tear in the area.

[WhiteKnyght]

Mages aren't at as much risk as the Templars make you think.

If you play a Circle Mage Origin or a Mage Hawke, how often do you have demons whispering in your ear and haunting your dreams? Even when you use blood magic, nothing happens to you.

All the mages turned abominations I've seen have been willing participants. Not taken against their will like the Templars propaganda says.

And Tevinter is an empire full of blood mages. But it's been standing for thousands of years. The place might be violent and cutthroat, but that's not because of magic. That's just their culture. The same way Orlesians are obsessed with fanciness, Antivans are obsessed with assassins, and Fereldans are big dog lovers.

[maxernst]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Mages aren't at as much risk as the Templars make you think.

If you play a Circle Mage Origin or a Mage Hawke, how often do you have demons whispering in your ear and haunting your dreams? Even when you use blood magic, nothing happens to you.

All the mages turned abominations I've seen have been willing participants. Not taken against their will like the Templars propaganda says.

And Tevinter is an empire full of blood mages. But it's been standing for thousands of years. The place might be violent and cutthroat, but that's not because of magic. That's just their culture. The same way Orlesians are obsessed with fanciness, Antivans are obsessed with assassins, and Fereldans are big dog lovers.

The vast majority of mages are in Circles in Tevinter, and that was true even in the old Imperium.  The magisters are powerful, and experienced, and, as a result, rarely become abominations.  As for "all the mages" being willing participants, the only ones we actually know that of are Connor and Marethari.  We don't know for sure with Uldred.  We do know that Merrill believes it to be a risk, which is why she brings Hawke along with her--do you think Merrill thinks that because of the Templars?  We see mages become abominations when their lives are threatened, whether it's willing or not, it's difficult to say.  It doesn't matter whether they're willing or not, if they're not, it just means that many mages ARE willing to become abominations. 

Bioware hasn't bothered to create all kinds of additional content for mages that aren't accessible to other characters, but its noteworthy that no mage in the game ever says that meeting up with demons and other spirits in the fade is some freakishly rare thing.  If that were propaganda, don't you think some of the anti-Templar mages you meet would say so?  You also can chug lyrium potions at will without ever experiencing addiction, and use blood magic in public without the Templars lifting a finger.  Do you also conclude that lyrium addiction doesn't exist and Templars don't really mind maleficarum running around?

Modifié par maxernst, 17 novembre 2011 - 10:22 .

[maxernst]

dafangirl wrote...

I agree Chantry law states mages must go to the circle. I think the sheer problem with the circle lies in the much controlled, not so very good, limited education received once there. Wynne remarks re Cullen's prison, "and this cage, I've never seen anything like it." Really? how long have you been educated here. Though, unlike Morrigan, she also doesn't recognize she's in the Fade, enough said.

Templar leniency? more like Chantry oversight and an inadequate educational system in place.

Does Morrigan recognize that cage (serious question, can't recall if she has anything to say)?  It's most likely something created by blood magic, so it's not suprising that Wynne wouldn't recognize it.  You're calling her uneducated because she can't recognize one spell?  There are other magical traditions than what are taught in the Circle.  Dalish magic is different.  The magic Morrigan learned from Flemeth is different.  That doesn't mean that the circle education is so horribly limited.

As far as not recognizing she was in the Fade, I always figured the reason it was obvious to Morrigan was because the demon's idea of her mother was so jarringly false, that she knew something was wrong immediately.

[Realmzmaster]

There are strategic and tactical reasons the whole Circle is not involved. Friendly fire alone is a consideration in the heat of battle. Example select the mage army in the fight with the ArchDemon. You will find that the group does far more damage to your group than the enemy. Even a simple spell like Winter's Grasp causes damage to the surrounding units.Mages are best used as long range artillery in large group battles to attack the enemy before the ground troops engage or as medics to heal the wounded troops.

The reason why Tevinter still stands is because it has adopted rules to govern magical use in its lands. Magical duels are fought to settle disputes. The magisters do not allow unbridled magic use in the cities. Research is controlled. Everyone in Tevinter is not a mage. Those people are needed to make the country run otherwise Tevinter would collapsed.

An allusion to this can be seen in the BG games where in a particular city magic is controlled to the point that any spell cast without authorization brings an immediate response from the security force and officials that govern the city. Repeated breaking of the rules will have the offender
placed in a magic prison.

I can only assume that Tevinter would have some kind of system like it.

[Wulfram]

maxernst wrote...

As far as not recognizing she was in the Fade, I always figured the reason it was obvious to Morrigan was because the demon's idea of her mother was so jarringly false, that she knew something was wrong immediately.

I always figured that it was because the demon's trap didn't rely on her not realising it was the fade - if the Warden hadn't shown up, Morrigan would probably have continued arguing with her fake mother until her real body died.

[DKJaigen]

Wulfram wrote...

maxernst wrote...

As far as not recognizing she was in the Fade, I always figured the reason it was obvious to Morrigan was because the demon's idea of her mother was so jarringly false, that she knew something was wrong immediately.

I always figured that it was because the demon's trap didn't rely on her not realising it was the fade - if the Warden hadn't shown up, Morrigan would probably have continued arguing with her fake mother until her real body died.

I see here you wish to see a mage fail no matter how succesful she is.

[Herr Uhl]

dafangirl wrote...

A more "survival of the fittest" Antivan Crow attitude might be better, confidence team-building exercises, something.

Yeah, team building.

The only way they can survive the brutal process and prove themselves worthy is by surviving every test the Crows throw at them, including killing their peers.

I'd imagine people would be less pleased with the Crow system than the Circle one.