131 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

TBH, I wouldn't have known a hanar or an elcor was a "species with members capable of calculus" if I saw one for the first time either. And, even now, I'm not sure what to think of the Keepers.

[wright1978]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Watch out the spoilers.

And, I hope they do MASS EFFECT 2 CHARACTERS justice...

Ditto. Ohh and one mission isn't justice.

[Xilizhra]

That's no reason for actively hating religions. I just don't want to become religious and feel offended by ppl trying to convert me. Besides that I believe in "live and let live" - and if ppl become happy with God, I don't see any reason to stop them.
Just an example. "I'm no fan" is overrated and could mean everything from "not actively supporting this" to "I dislike this". In my case it's close to the first statement and it also applies for Ashley.

Colloquially, "I'm not a fan of" is generally the same as "I don't like," which generally means "I dislike." It's a bit of a mathematician's answer otherwise.

"Saren can kiss his turian ass goodbye..." ==> "Saddam can kiss his iraqi ass goodbye"
Wouldn't mind that at all. Ashley is a soldier and soldiers tend to say such stuff. No racism detected.

A lot of soldiers are somewhat racist. I find that highly believable.

It's just that: Ashley never used her belief to offend or deny any aliens - at least not in my game.

Not directly, but many people are extremely sensitive about the combination.

TBH, I wouldn't have known a hanar or an elcor was a "species with members capable of calculus" if I saw one for the first time either. And, even now, I'm not sure what to think of the Keepers.

Elcor wear clothes, hanar run shops and preach, keepers operate control panels, and the Citadel doesn't even like having pets on board thanks to limited living space. There are no nonsentient animals in the area at all.

[Mr. Brainheart]

Bioware has claimed that the "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" line was glitched/bugged and was only supposed to trigger when close to a keeper.

In Ashley's case it seems to be about trust, she doesn't trust aliens (which she explains through the famously misinterpreted bear/dog analogy) She feels humanity needs to depend on themselves and not cling too much to aliens, since (she thinks) they.

"I'm not a fan of" could in my mind easily be translated to "I don't trust", it doesn't mean she has a dislike of all things alien. Also she doesn't go very far in this, she's firmly against terra firma and Cerberus.

There's no doubt about her being reserved towards aliens, partly due to her naïvety and what she thinks happened to her grandfather, partly due to the realist she is. She's certainly isn't perfect in this regard, but this is not xenophobia or racism. Her blunt manner of stating things makes it harder to see that, atleast that's what I believe.


Also I just hope every character will be done justice!

Modifié par Mr. Brainheart, 16 novembre 2011 - 06:17 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
Elcor wear clothes,

This is Cairo, he works for the US Navy.

Xilizhra wrote...
[H]anar run shops and preach,

Well...yeah!  Hearing them talk would be different.

Xilizhra wrote...
[K]eepers operate control panels,

That's what I mean!  The Keepers are closer to biological machines than they are to people.

Xilizhra wrote...
[A]nd the Citadel doesn't even like having pets on board thanks to limited living space. There are no nonsentient animals in the area at all.

But if I didn't know that...

Modifié par General User, 16 novembre 2011 - 06:23 .

[Xilizhra]

Bioware has claimed that the "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" line was glitched/bugged and was only supposed to trigger when close to a keeper.

Who... also wear backpacks and operate control panels. That doesn't help much at all.

In Ashley's case it seems to be about trust, she doesn't trust aliens (which she explains through the famously misinterpreted bear/dog analogy) She feels humanity needs to depend on themselves and not cling too much to aliens, since (she thinks) they.

The analogy was very badly written. I can hardly blame people for misinterpreting it.

There's no doubt about her being reserved towards aliens, partly due to her naïvety and what she thinks happened to her grandfather, partly due to the realist she is. She's certainly isn't perfect in this regard, but this is not xenophobia or racism. Her blunt manner of stating things makes it harder to see that, atleast that's what I believe.

It is xenophobia. Just a mild form. But it'd not an insuperable blemish; you don't need to keep denying it.

This is Cairo, he works for the US Navy.

Speech-capable?

[Xilizhra]

Well...yeah! Hearing them talk would be different.

Translators make their bioluminescence audible.

That's what I mean! The Keepers are closer to biological machines than they are to people.

"Animals" still makes no sense.

But if I didn't know that...

Then you'd be somewhat Bushesque in being underinformed of the customs of the place you're going to.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is Cairo, he works for the US Navy.

Speech-capable?

There are a few ways an alien who never saw a dog before could find that out.  One of which would be to try and strike up a conversation.  Any humans in the area would get a real kick out of that!

Modifié par General User, 16 novembre 2011 - 06:33 .

[JaerWolfe]

I think what most VS fans are asking for is less justice and more character consistency or even character integrity. We want the characters we fell in love with in ME1 to have more than just a name in common with that same character in ME3. From what the spoilers have revealed it seems that the name and voice actor are the only things that will be the same leaving fans frustrated and very much confused.

There is a definite vibe that we are being punished because we didn't choose the 'correct' companion.

ME2 was very unsatisfactory for VS fans. We were the only ones left with nothing resolved. In fact, you can say that things very much devolved. When you add the Genesis comic to the mix, it seemed very much like a slap in the face...I speak particularly as a Kaidan fan who did not recognize the description in that comic as being anything like the character from ME1.
So comes ME3 and our hope for the resolution we have so far not only be denied, but mocked for wanting. The spoilers did nothing to allay these fears and much to make them worse.

As a Kaidan fan, I want character consistency. I want the same character who would not cut corners, who methodically thought things out in ME1 to have some glimmer of similarity in ME3. I don't want a 'good kid'.

I am aware that the primary writer for Kaidan's character is no longer attached to the ME franchise and I believe the same can be said of Ashley's character writer. I believe that the primary writer for Kaidan's character is the same one who wrote Jacob and Thane...and I see a very disturbing pattern in the resolution of those characters as well. As if because the original writers are no longer there to maintain the integrity of their creation, that integrity is lost.

We VS fans don't want a story that revolves solely around the VS. We want a story involving them where we are reminded of why we fell in love with them in the first place.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well...yeah! Hearing them talk would be different.

Translators make their bioluminescence audible.

I'm not saying you have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure it out, only that someone could be forgiven if they didn't know just by looking.

Xilizhra wrote...

That's what I mean! The Keepers are closer to biological machines than they are to people.

"Animals" still makes no sense.

Makes as much sense as calling them "people."  Neither label really fits.

Xilizhra wrote...

But if I didn't know that...

Then you'd be somewhat Bushesque in being underinformed of the customs of the place you're going to.

Maybe.  But, in fairness, "we don't have any pets/animals here" isn't the sort of thing a person who isn't planning on moving to the Citadel is necessarily bound to remember.

[Mr. Brainheart]

Well, I define xenophobia as an unreasonable fear of, in this case, aliens. I don't believe Ashley her beliefs are very unreasonable, I feel like the comments she makes are, in light of the situations, not without reason. So it's true that it's slightly unreasonable of her, so if that for you falls under xenophobia than we just define the same thing differently.

At the same time, some people blow it out of proportions and confuse what I'd call her realism for racism (this is where I agree with the writer),I mean, she doesn't think humans are superior creatures, she clearly states that ingame.

[Belisarius09]

people are still so dumb when it comes to horizon...

ok i read this once, and i thought it was a great way of putting things.
imagine you have a girlfriend. during your time together you are your girlfriend are actively involved in the civil rights movement. then, you die, and then two years later you come back to life, and you've started working for the kkk. you run into your girlfriend and she sees you're working with the kkk. imagine how she would feel about that.

ashley opposed terra firma, she was never xenophobic, she was just cautious as were most humans of the other races and as were most of the other races towards humans.

to understand someone you need to walk around in their shoes.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not saying you have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure it out, only that someone could be forgiven if they didn't know just by looking.

So she didn't know the hanar existed and they were large jellyfish before coming to the Citadel? Yes, I think I can blame her for that... if she really is that information-averse, which would seem to reflect even more poorly on her.

Makes as much sense as calling them "people." Neither label really fits.

Regardless, the line is still stupid.

Maybe. But, in fairness, "we don't have any pets/animals here" isn't the sort of thing a person who isn't planning on moving to the Citadel is necessarily bound to remember.

And being unable to recognize sapient beings as being such?

Well, I define xenophobia as an unreasonable fear of, in this case, aliens. I don't believe Ashley her beliefs are very unreasonable, I feel like the comments she makes are, in light of the situations, not without reason. So it's true that it's slightly unreasonable of her, so if that for you falls under xenophobia than we just define the same thing differently.

They're somewhat unreasonable, yes, and that falls under the same purview.

At the same time, some people blow it out of proportions and confuse what I'd call her realism for racism (this is where I agree with the writer),I mean, she doesn't think humans are superior creatures, she clearly states that ingame.

She doesn't say that they are. I don't trust her to not think it a little.

[CrazyRah]

I just hope they do every character regardless of name and prior scene time

[Izhalezan]

No Justice in ME3 please, he blew up a church and started a war back in his home realm.

[Clara Shepard]

SAGEHONOR wrote...

This thread is started in regards to some of the backlash that Bioware  has recieved when it came to a character they liked. More specifically, the VS. I didn't read any spoilers.. But I did have Lots spoiled for me. I am aware of some of the main plot points and character situations.

In ME2 we had Liara, VS, and Wrex unable to make their way to the normandy. For obvious reasons.. However..

Wrex is understandable.. But we still get a heart warming reception on Tuchanka and we are able to have a nice conversation with him about his plans for the Krogan. Liara, we get a DLC and even the chance to romance her again.. With the VS, we get a railroaded 2 minute cameo.... And I like how we can convince an indoctrinated spectre ( Saren ) to kill himself. We can gain someones loyalty ( Tali ) By lying and yelling at her admiralty board.. We can talk a squadmmate ( Garrus ) into not killing someone. But we cant convince the VS that we had good intentions working with Cerberus...

Then there is the strong hypocrisy among the fans when it comes to these characters... for example...

Ashley Williams: " I have a concern about the aliens "
The majority: RACIST!!! XENOPHOBE!!!! RACIST B****

Tali is very close minded about the Geth but noone ever ridicules her for that.


Ash gives a few hints throughout the game that shows she believes in god.
The majority: RELIGIOUS ZEALOT!! HYPOCRITE!!

I dont think we can even call her relgious. She states she believes in god. But I dont recall her reading the bible or praying  or saying anything really extreme... I feel the religious part about her is a bit exaggerated

In ME2 we get a religious assassin who tries to tell you he's not responsible for the people he killed. He prays for himself after killing his targets.. Even though he says he feels nothing and isnt responisble for the people he kills. " A hired gun " is what he considers himself.

The majority: KAIDAN IS BORING!!! KAIDAN IS A WHINER!!
How is he a whiner? Can somebody show me at least one scene where he seemed to be whiner?? He's boring because he comes across as subtle with hidden strength and not all in your face renegade like

Wrex/Grunt/Garrus/Jack

Sometimes I wonder if these people even bothereed talking to Ash/Kaidan just to get their perspective rather than just dismissing them as these things.

I was told about what happens with them in ME3.. And it seems like we are once again gonna get put into "Forced Friendship" with characters like Tali, Garrus, Thane, etc.. While the VS is made to look...  you know.. Bad

I am aware that things can change. I just hope these characters are done some justice after being railroaded in ME2

True to that, true to the indeed.  If they make Kaidan look really bad... it will have solely been because the devs like seeing their fans cry... cruel, cruel world

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not saying you have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure it out, only that someone could be forgiven if they didn't know just by looking.

So she didn't know the hanar existed and they were large jellyfish before coming to the Citadel? Yes, I think I can blame her for that... if she really is that information-averse, which would seem to reflect even more poorly on her.

I guess.  Maybe if Ash was on a mission to Kahje she'd have been a little more diligent in research.  But for the Citadel... if I were taking a trip to New York or London I wouldn't bother to learn the ins and outs of the customs, etc. of every single ethnic group in those cities.  I know it's not the exact same thing, but still...

Xilizhra wrote...

Makes as much sense as calling them "people." Neither label really fits.

Regardless, the line is still stupid.

I'd call it inappropriate.  The sort of thing an obnoxious tourist might say, but totally unbecoming for a soldier in uniform.  I would have reprimanded her on the spot.

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe. But, in fairness, "we don't have any pets/animals here" isn't the sort of thing a person who isn't planning on moving to the Citadel is necessarily bound to remember.

And being unable to recognize sapient beings as being such?

I think she was able to recognize them, just not instantly.

Modifié par General User, 16 novembre 2011 - 07:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This is Cairo, he works for the US Navy.

Speech-capable?

There are a few ways an alien who never saw a dog before could find that out.  One of which would be to try and strike up a conversation.  Any humans in the area would get a real kick out of that!

If it was an Asari, she might try to understand it by melding.

Best. Scandal. Ever.



"Commander Shepard? I think I knew one of your relatives once. Only she was on four legs. And had a tail."

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 novembre 2011 - 07:21 .

[CptData]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's no reason for actively hating religions. I just don't want to become religious and feel offended by ppl trying to convert me. Besides that I believe in "live and let live" - and if ppl become happy with God, I don't see any reason to stop them.
Just an example. "I'm no fan" is overrated and could mean everything from "not actively supporting this" to "I dislike this". In my case it's close to the first statement and it also applies for Ashley.

Colloquially, "I'm not a fan of" is generally the same as "I don't like," which generally means "I dislike." It's a bit of a mathematician's answer otherwise.

I think that's just a ... unusual statement to find a polite word.
And only because I think 99% of mankind are "no fan ofs" of some stuff. And 95% would say they're "no fan of your understanding of 'no fan of' ... "

Seriously, I like the debates with you, they're refreshing. But in that case I'd say you got the short stick.

Won't go down any further that road

"Saren can kiss his turian ass goodbye..." ==> "Saddam can kiss his iraqi ass goodbye"
Wouldn't mind that at all. Ashley is a soldier and soldiers tend to say such stuff. No racism detected.

A lot of soldiers are somewhat racist. I find that highly believable.

Never was a soldier. I think I'll never become one, either because too old already (almost 30) but also since I can tell you most of the wars currently fought, the wars before and after today are pretty much useless.
And why? Brothers fighting brothers. Yesterday it was because of religious reasons and resources. Tomorrow it's about resources and religions. And today all mixed together. I'm no pacifist, no way, I do understand the concept of war and know exactly when you can't avoid the fight. It's just that nearly ALL of the wars including both world wars were quite pointless.

In a word: I don't wanna give my life in a pointless war.

Sorry, don't wanna make a political discussion out of this.

Not directly, but many people are extremely sensitive about the combination.

I dunno how to write down the stuff I am right now thinking without offending half of western world. The combination "religious" and "xenophobic" seems to be quite common since 9/11/2001 tbh. Won't go any further here.
Therefore I think it's funny people are offended by that combination. I'm not, not a bit, and I'm open minded, atheist, a strong believer in grassroots democracy and whatnot ... maybe ppl are offended because Ashley feel like a mirror to them and they realize how stupid they act if not put to ground? Ashley GETS put to ground by paragonizing Shepard ...


Again, sorry for political statement. I really, really wanna put stuff like this out of the forums.


*** edited to keep things civilized *** :innocent:

Modifié par CptData, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:10 .

[Xilizhra]

I guess. Maybe if Ash was on a mission to Kahje she'd have been a little more diligent in research. But for the Citadel... if I were taking a trip to New York or London I wouldn't bother to learn the ins and outs of the customs, etc. of every single ethnic group in those cities. I know it's not the exact same thing, but still...

Telling the difference between an Arab and an Indian, say, is indeed not the same thing as recognizing the huge jellyfish people.

[DCopeland]

I'll be glad when I get the chance to kill the VS off.
Twice

[Had-to-say]

Yes, Ashley is very flawed, most humans are. To me that makes her more real than these so called heroes. Life comes prepackaged with baggage.

[solvill]

Belisarius09 wrote...

people are still so dumb when it comes to horizon...

ok i read this once, and i thought it was a great way of putting things.
imagine you have a girlfriend. during your time together you are your girlfriend are actively involved in the civil rights movement. then, you die, and then two years later you come back to life, and you've started working for the kkk. you run into your girlfriend and she sees you're working with the kkk. imagine how she would feel about that.

to understand someone you need to walk around in their shoes.

This

[Drone223]

I think VS fans want Bioware to stop making them the hate magnet of the ME trilogy and want them to be treated like any other character in Shepards team.

As for Ashley being a "racist relgious (sp)" zealot, that isn't true at all as
1. She is willing to work with Salerian STG team without being told so by Shepard
2. She talk's to Tali and hope's her people will be able to find a new place to live
3. She disaprove's of Terra ferma and Cerberus
4. Her mistrust of alien's is due to the fact they will put their own agenda first, just like any goverment
5. Shepard can persuade her to trust alien's more  
6. She says she believe's in god that's it she says nothing more, she doesn't act like "zealot" in any way
7. She suggest that you talk to Liara after the mission on Noveria