131 réponses à ce sujet

[1136342t54_]

Nightwriter wrote...

That's a valid argument. But I feel Ash draws race lines where she should be drawing government lines. My issue is with the supposed statement, "Assume every alien is a nationalist because of race." That's still seeing species before the individual, yes? I'm not saying it's unreasonable -- humanity is the new kid in a playground full of strange playmates -- but I do think it means making unfair assumptions and sewing unnecessary distrust at a crucial inter-species social stage.

Its not unfair assumptions. Thats like saying its unfair to claim a American is loyal to his or her country. It is a perfectly reasonable assumption.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Doofe2012 wrote...

It really sucks that I have to read fanfiction to experience a satisfying, emotionally sound story about Shepard and a VS. In all honesty, I want to see my canon MaleShep marry Ashley. But I really doubt I'll be seeing that in ME3. (note: I haven't read any spoiler leaks)

If they aren't changing the script from the leak, it's safe to say that they sadly won't be getting justice. The personality of Ashley (can't say for Kaiden cause he's always dead, although probably him too) changed drastically in ME2, and then in the script in ME3 given a certain event that took place. It just didn't make sense for the Ashley Williams from ME1 to do that specific thing in ME3. Now again that particular portion of the script could have been scrapped, but the fact that it was in there in the first place is a testimony of how they haven't kept certain ME1 characters consistent with their beliefs/personality. 


-Polite

[Ricinator]

Yes, i dont want Ashley/Kaiden getting taken off the squad roster 30 min into the game and having to pick them up 1 hour before the final missions.

[Iakus]

Nightwriter wrote...

That's a valid argument. But I feel Ash draws race lines where she should be drawing government lines. My issue is with the supposed statement, "Assume every alien is a nationalist because of race." That's still seeing species before the individual, yes? I'm not saying it's unreasonable -- humanity is the new kid in a playground full of strange playmates -- but I do think it means making unfair assumptions and sewing unnecessary distrust at a crucial inter-species social stage.

Perhaps, but how many asari are Earth citizens?  How many Hanar serve on Alliance ships?  The governments are the Batarian Hegemony, not the Khar'Shan Hegemony.  the Turian Hierarchy, not the Palavan Hierarchy.  The Hanar Illuminated Primacy, not the Kahje Illuminated Primacy.  They've been spacefaring for centuries, if not millenia.  And they've remained racially homogenous, for whatever reason.  This is what Ash sees.  Race and government going hand-in-hand.

[xCirdanx]

I really hope they do justice to every romance the player choose. It´s the end of a series. 3 games, many years, so many fans and people have such an attachment to their loved characters, that it is difficult, BUT doable.

God I hope, that at last every romance (if a possible future one) gets an ingame cinematic at the end. Don´t tell me that it is too much to ask  >.<

[Total Biscuit]

iakus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

That's a valid argument. But I feel Ash draws race lines where she should be drawing government lines. My issue is with the supposed statement, "Assume every alien is a nationalist because of race." That's still seeing species before the individual, yes? I'm not saying it's unreasonable -- humanity is the new kid in a playground full of strange playmates -- but I do think it means making unfair assumptions and sewing unnecessary distrust at a crucial inter-species social stage.

Perhaps, but how many asari are Earth citizens?  How many Hanar serve on Alliance ships?  The governments are the Batarian Hegemony, not the Khar'Shan Hegemony.  the Turian Hierarchy, not the Palavan Hierarchy.  The Hanar Illuminated Primacy, not the Kahje Illuminated Primacy.  They've been spacefaring for centuries, if not millenia.  And they've remained racially homogenous, for whatever reason.  This is what Ash sees.  Race and government going hand-in-hand.

The main reason these species tend to not fully homogenise is quite simple; Species cannot interbreed. It's got nothing to do with keeping the outsiders down or power struggles based on xenophobia in the long run, but making sure theres someone in charge to stop you being swamped with members of a species with a faster reproduction rate.

I mean look at the only two races without any real unified government; the Asari who can breed with anyone, and the Krogan who did it too much and were severely punished for it. When you get down to it, MAss Effect is a fantasy based on real life here on Earth, so it's hardly surprising that sex is the main driving force behind it's universe.

[CptData]

iakus wrote...

Tus why an a counter to the "Ash is racist" arguement that I hold to is "Ash is a nationalist"  However human the other races seem to be, they are still beholden to foreign governments.  And as such have agendas and motives not necessailly in line with the Alliance.  As such, humans (the noncorporate, nonpolitician types at least) are those on "her side" and thus take priority in saving.   With certain exceptions for those who have proven themselves, of course.  

At least Ash is a patriot. She loves serving in the Alliance and she's a proud member of her species. Does that make her a bad person? (Hey, my PoV is quite unique being a German and therefore not allowed to be a patriot without being mistaken as something worse). So I can understand Ashley: she simply loves who she is and what she stands for - not a bad thing.

Must say in days like these it's hard to find a person that stays true to him/herself. It seems to be accepted a person changes his/her opinions to please everyone, giving up the very own position. Why that? Why are people feeling offended if someone stays true to his/her position and don't accept THEIR opinion as his/her own?

I think that's one of the reasons why Ashley gets a lot of hate - she does not accept Shepard's ideas without questioning them. She does not accept his PoV without asking why he thinks so. She has her own position, her own personality. And that makes her a tad more authentic than other characters.

[Drone223]

^Sadly for most fans they only like character's that bow down to Shepard like royalty, Shepard isn't the center of the universe

Regarding what happen's to the VS, there may be change's and hopefully they are for the best, But in the end the only the way to find out for sure is to play ME3 when its released

[onelifecrisis]

Drone223 wrote...

^Sadly for most fans they only like character's that bow down to Shepard like royalty, Shepard isn't the center of the universe

Regarding what happen's to the VS, there may be change's and hopefully they are for the best, But in the end the only the way to find out for sure is to play ask about ME3 when after its released

Fixed that for you 

[Iakus]

CptData wrote...

At least Ash is a patriot. She loves serving in the Alliance and she's a proud member of her species. Does that make her a bad person? (Hey, my PoV is quite unique being a German and therefore not allowed to be a patriot without being mistaken as something worse). So I can understand Ashley: she simply loves who she is and what she stands for - not a bad thing.

Must say in days like these it's hard to find a person that stays true to him/herself. It seems to be accepted a person changes his/her opinions to please everyone, giving up the very own position. Why that? Why are people feeling offended if someone stays true to his/her position and don't accept THEIR opinion as his/her own?

I think that's one of the reasons why Ashley gets a lot of hate - she does not accept Shepard's ideas without questioning them. She does not accept his PoV without asking why he thinks so. She has her own position, her own personality. And that makes her a tad more authentic than other characters.

I never said it makes her a bad person.  I actually find her loyalty one of her more admirable qualities.  Her flaw, I think , is pessimism.  Until a person as proven themselves, she's willing to believe the worst in humans, just as in aliens.  She sees it all the time

"A Williams must be better than the rest, if only to avoid suspicion"

[Estelindis]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Drone223 wrote...
play ask about ME3 when after its released

Fixed that for you 

I dunno...  I want to play ME3 unspoiled (though I can no longer play completely unspoiled since a jerkish troll posted a bunch of spoilers to the Kaidan and Ashley threads), so that I experience the full emotional impact of events surprising me as they happen.  The trouble is, if Bioware have really done the things to some characters that the spoilers say, then I do not want them to get my money anymore.  It would be fairer for me to start by denying revenue to the ME franchise since it would be the one that had given me a slap in the face, rather than not buying DA3 because I couldn't believe in Bioware anymore.  I just don't know what to do.  I'm certainly not cancelling my pre-order any time before the last week, in any case.  It's only fair to give Bioware a chance to use the rest of this time to make the game as good as it can be, hopefully including getting rid of any plot elements that sounded like they came from a bad fanfic.  If that means delaying the release of the game, I'm okay with that.

[onelifecrisis]

Estelindis wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Drone223 wrote...
play ask about ME3 when after its released

Fixed that for you 

I dunno...  I want to play ME3 unspoiled (though I can no longer play completely unspoiled since a jerkish troll posted a bunch of spoilers to the Kaidan and Ashley threads), so that I experience the full emotional impact of events surprising me as they happen.  The trouble is, if Bioware have really done the things to some characters that the spoilers say, then I do not want them to get my money anymore.  It would be fairer for me to start by denying revenue to the ME franchise since it would be the one that had given me a slap in the face, rather than not buying DA3 because I couldn't believe in Bioware anymore.  I just don't know what to do.  I'm certainly not cancelling my pre-order any time before the last week, in any case.  It's only fair to give Bioware a chance to use the rest of this time to make the game as good as it can be, hopefully including getting rid of any plot elements that sounded like they came from a bad fanfic.  If that means delaying the release of the game, I'm okay with that.

Sorry to hear about that troll. In my experience, if you ask on the net for "opinions without spoilers" about a recently released game, that's exactly what you get. But I suppose there's always a chance that someone will troll you with spoilers.

[Estelindis]

onelifecrisis wrote...

In my experience, if you ask on the net for "opinions without spoilers" about a recently released game, that's exactly what you get. 

*bops self on head*  Of course!  Ask for opinions without spoilers!  Sometimes I don't see the obvious thing right in front of me.  (I had just been thinking in terms of waiting to see if the spoilers turned out to be accurate or not.)  Sorry and thanks.  :-)

EDIT: Of course, the trouble with that is that popular opinion on the game wouldn't necessarily reflect what my opinion would be if I played it.  Word of mouth about Alpha Protocol was awful around release time, but I adored that game when I played it.

Modifié par Estelindis, 17 novembre 2011 - 03:11 .

[onelifecrisis]

Oh, sure, no problem. BTW I think it's usually best to put the "without spoilers" part in bold, caps, coloured text, just to be safe. ;-)

[onelifecrisis]

Estelindis wrote...

EDIT: Of course, the trouble with that is that popular opinion on the game wouldn't necessarily reflect what my opinion would be if I played it.  Word of mouth about Alpha Protocol was awful around release time, but I adored that game when I played it.

Very true. It helps if you know a handful of people who's opinions you respect. Otherwise you're just taking a very small random sample out of a very big set. But still, it's better than nothing.

[Troika0]

I think the greater problem with the VS characters--greater even than the almost comical character assassination (as it's generally perceived)--is their complete lack of individual characterization. They've become another victim of Bioware-style choice-and-consequence and are presently little more than pallet swaps: they fill the same roles in the plot, take the same actions within those roles, even their dialogue is largely the same barring a few token references by Ashley to her sister and Kaidan to his--I don't know--his whatever. They stopped being separate after ME1 and are now just the male and female avatars for this meta-character called the "Vermire Survivor."

[Gabey5]

There is nothing wrong with flaws. That makes them more appealing

[Estelindis]

Flaws can make a character more (or less) appealing, if written correctly. If written poorly, they can lead to wall bangers.

[CptData]

Troika0 wrote...

I think the greater problem with the VS characters--greater even than the almost comical character assassination (as it's generally perceived)--is their complete lack of individual characterization. They've become another victim of Bioware-style choice-and-consequence and are presently little more than pallet swaps: they fill the same roles in the plot, take the same actions within those roles, even their dialogue is largely the same barring a few token references by Ashley to her sister and Kaidan to his--I don't know--his whatever. They stopped being separate after ME1 and are now just the male and female avatars for this meta-character called the "Vermire Survivor."

Lets second that until ME3 shows us differently.

To be honest, I, as an Ash fan, don't feel offended by the thought Ashley or Kaidan fill the same role in ME3. I WILL feel offended if:

- Kaidan turns to Ashley and Ashley becomes Kaidan (mixed characters)
- there are no "special" assignments for Ashley or Kaidan - Ashley -> family, Kaidan -> some L2 assignment
- romance arcs are identical in any way even the spoken lines

So lets say as long as Ash & Kaidan only fill the same role in the main plot but with distinct differences in side plots and or assignments I'm fine.

[Tropulous]

My guess is that Bioware is aiming for emotional torque with the VS.

The overriding goal of all storytelling is to get a reaction from the audience. In the case of Mass Effect, part of this would mean making the players sympathise with the characters and feel attached to them, so that when the sh*t hits the fan, you, the player, feel the hit just as much as the characters do. These kind of punches are excellent at getting the player involved with the story, and make for a more personal experience when playing the game.

In the case of the VS, I think the reason why the writers are dumping so much drama in the relationship of Ashley/Kaidan with Shepard (and the player, by extension) is exactly that: to get a reaction of us, to put us on an emotional rollercoaster. That way, when all the tension resolves, their relationship with the player leaves a longer lasting impression than if it had stayed the same all the time. That way, when we look back at all we've gone through with them, we'll feel proud of them for overcoming the obstacles the plot has put them through.

I believe this is what Bioware intends to do with the VS, or at least this is what the (admittedly messy and incomplete) spoilers have led me to think. But I'm concerned about how much they will succeed at implementing these intentions. Player punches only work when the players care about the characters, and there's many players who don't care about Ashley/Kaidan, or flat-out hate them. They have the right to do so, sure... but they're losing part of the impact of the game.

So, the point of this is... in order to do justice to their characters, the game should make us care for them again. Give them moments where their characterization, their positive qualities are shown. If possible, give them some awesome moments, too: they work wonders for winning the hearts of many players. As some of the previous posts have said, "We want a story involving them where we are reminded of why we fell in love with them in the first place". Once you have that, then you can start throwing the dramatic moments. Otherwise, they will fall flat for everyone who isn't a fan of the characters.

[onelifecrisis]

Tropulous wrote...

My guess is that Bioware is aiming for emotional torque with the VS.

The overriding goal of all storytelling is to get a reaction from the audience. In the case of Mass Effect, part of this would mean making the players sympathise with the characters and feel attached to them, so that when the sh*t hits the fan, you, the player, feel the hit just as much as the characters do. These kind of punches are excellent at getting the player involved with the story, and make for a more personal experience when playing the game.

In the case of the VS, I think the reason why the writers are dumping so much drama in the relationship of Ashley/Kaidan with Shepard (and the player, by extension) is exactly that: to get a reaction of us, to put us on an emotional rollercoaster. That way, when all the tension resolves, their relationship with the player leaves a longer lasting impression than if it had stayed the same all the time. That way, when we look back at all we've gone through with them, we'll feel proud of them for overcoming the obstacles the plot has put them through.

I believe this is what Bioware intends to do with the VS, or at least this is what the (admittedly messy and incomplete) spoilers have led me to think. But I'm concerned about how much they will succeed at implementing these intentions. Player punches only work when the players care about the characters, and there's many players who don't care about Ashley/Kaidan, or flat-out hate them. They have the right to do so, sure... but they're losing part of the impact of the game.

So, the point of this is... in order to do justice to their characters, the game should make us care for them again. Give them moments where their characterization, their positive qualities are shown. If possible, give them some awesome moments, too: they work wonders for winning the hearts of many players. As some of the previous posts have said, "We want a story involving them where we are reminded of why we fell in love with them in the first place". Once you have that, then you can start throwing the dramatic moments. Otherwise, they will fall flat for everyone who isn't a fan of the characters.

If BW were trying to get "emotional torque" then it would make more sense for them to do it with a popular character like Garrus. Why do it with the VS? A lot of players who started with ME2 never even met the VS, except for that quick bit on Horizon. And, as you said, a lot of the ME1 players who did meet them didn't like them.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 18 novembre 2011 - 03:10 .

[crimzontearz]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Tropulous wrote...

My guess is that Bioware is aiming for emotional torque with the VS.

The overriding goal of all storytelling is to get a reaction from the audience. In the case of Mass Effect, part of this would mean making the players sympathise with the characters and feel attached to them, so that when the sh*t hits the fan, you, the player, feel the hit just as much as the characters do. These kind of punches are excellent at getting the player involved with the story, and make for a more personal experience when playing the game.

In the case of the VS, I think the reason why the writers are dumping so much drama in the relationship of Ashley/Kaidan with Shepard (and the player, by extension) is exactly that: to get a reaction of us, to put us on an emotional rollercoaster. That way, when all the tension resolves, their relationship with the player leaves a longer lasting impression than if it had stayed the same all the time. That way, when we look back at all we've gone through with them, we'll feel proud of them for overcoming the obstacles the plot has put them through.

I believe this is what Bioware intends to do with the VS, or at least this is what the (admittedly messy and incomplete) spoilers have led me to think. But I'm concerned about how much they will succeed at implementing these intentions. Player punches only work when the players care about the characters, and there's many players who don't care about Ashley/Kaidan, or flat-out hate them. They have the right to do so, sure... but they're losing part of the impact of the game.

So, the point of this is... in order to do justice to their characters, the game should make us care for them again. Give them moments where their characterization, their positive qualities are shown. If possible, give them some awesome moments, too: they work wonders for winning the hearts of many players. As some of the previous posts have said, "We want a story involving them where we are reminded of why we fell in love with them in the first place". Once you have that, then you can start throwing the dramatic moments. Otherwise, they will fall flat for everyone who isn't a fan of the characters.

If BW were trying to get "emotional torque" then it would make more sense for them to do it with a popular character like Garrus. Why do it with the VS? A lot of players who started with ME2 never even met the VS, except for that quick bit on Horizon. And, as you said, a lot of the ME1 players who did meet them didn't like them.

and in some cases people who met them in ME 1 are miffed enough about the changes made to them (well, the apparent changes....in particular with ashley) that are liable to just dislike them in ME3

[shepskisaac]

We''ll see. The fact Kaidan got the best armor out of ME3 squadmates makes me more optimistic regarding how BioWare treats him

[crimzontearz]

^^ I am so pissed now

[onelifecrisis]

IsaacShep wrote...

We''ll see. The fact Kaidan got the best armor out of ME3 squadmates makes me more optimistic regarding how BioWare treats him

Pfft, you're just a pushover.