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[TheButterflyEffect]

In response to someone else's post since it was, as usual, locked before I could reply.

No,
all of the ending for the Warden suck. None of them are positive in the
least, and it pisses me off because after all that arse busting work,
and our Warden isn't allowed to have ANY rewarding happiness whatsoever in their life. Like I said, come Awakening your family and friends still don't want you back, you fellow Wardens have abandoned you and want nothing to do with you, your boyfriend/girlfriend has ditched you and refuses to ever touch you or look at you again despite the fact that you gave them your goddamn heart, you have no kin or real friends, and you're homeless. You're forever a drifter.

Total. Bollocks.

The point of playing in such a crapsack world is to work hard in order to make it less crapsacky. In this case, no matter what you do or how many good things you've done, you get zero respect or recognition for what you've done and the world is still just as crapsacky as ever. Elves especially are the most pathetic, rubbish elves I have EVER seen in any form of fictional media.

Just like Garahel. The bloke was an elf. And the fact that he was an elf, to everyone else that automatically invalidates all his selfless sacrifices. Just like you and yours. No one will ever appreciate you or love you as a person and your sacrifices will never mean squat to them.

The Warden's life is so utterly worthless and meaningless, they're never allowed to be happy ever, and that's just so depressing. For me it makes me never want to play this game again. Rubbish.

I still ask why it wasn't an option to just let all these disgusting, miserable people and this miserable world die. There's no reason why they should be allowed to be happy while you're only allowed to be miserable.

Let's see:



Dwarf Noble: Declared a paragon and gets the throne after Harrowmont. Yes, but everyone still hates your ass and will always be convinced you killed that fat mofo of a brother of yours.



Dwarf Commoner: Declared a paragon, and family ennobled. No,
you're sterile so only Rica and your mom really get to be noble.
Everyone still spats on you because you've got no stupid caste. Plus, the endings to Awakening are all genericized, so no mention of you being a Paragon and crap is ever made.



City Elf: Is ennobled and made bann of the Alienage. But to the
whole world, you're still a damn elf. And if Anora becomes Queen, she
ends up striking down your people again just like before, so you're
right back at square one.



Dalish Elf: can get land for the Dalish. And you stil can't ever
go back to your tribe and be a normal elf again, you have no parents
and your friends still don't want you back.



Human Noble can marry Anora or Alister depending on gender, and can choose to become the new Teryn of Gweryn. Which
is hardly a reward because no one will shut up about your sterility
issue, and you still can't ever go back to Highever and live your life
again. You'll never be a noble or be happy again.



So there are nothing but bad endings.

The protagonist is always the butt monkey, the one who gets the short end of the stick. Why? Why can't we acheive anything better through our actions? Poor chap.

[Klidi]

I saw that first thread and it was locked before I could react to this nonsense.

I hope you are aware that those bold parts are mostly your own interpretations and not facts, yes?

If you're determined that your Warden will never be noble or happy again and that everyone will hate them, it's your choice.

My Surana, for example, was quite happy that he was out of the Tower, he was probably the first elf ever who became and Arl, was a good friend with the King, sterility didn't bother him as he's a gay and he lived with his lover happily, even though Crows tried to destroy that several times.

So please stop trying to enforce your negativism to all of us. And if you the game is such crap, well the solution is easy - just stop playing it, no?

[TheButterflyEffect]

Then Zevran, like all the others, ditches you to run off to Antiva for no apparent reason. Hmph.

[Klidi]

He didn't 'ditch' me. He left for Antiva, yes, and my Warden knew there was a very good reason if he was willing to separate from him. That's why after Awakening he went to Antiva to pick him up. They killed lot of those pesky Crows and remained toghether after that.

Again - if you want to believe that your Warden is the most miserable creature in the universe, feel free, it's perfectly fine with me.

Just don't present it as a fact that is true about all Wardens.

[TheButterflyEffect]

It is. Your life is ruined, you're tainted forever, because apparently only Fiona is the one who is allowed to be cured. And God is an arse. And the whole concept of Drakespan is so retarded, only the Tevinter dudes were transformed but how this... uh... whatever it is? became a transmissable "disease " is never explained.

No home, no family, and zero respect, especially if you're an elf/dwarf. To the whole world you're just a loser Warden and Wardens are all useless losers. Scotland/Fradlan doesn't want NONE of you no matter how much you sacrifice. No one cares that their mutilated carcasses would be scattered about a field of dead dirt if it weren't for you. No one cares that the planet would have gone kaput if it weren't for you (though frankly, I would be all too happy to see this stupid world and all these jerks in it go up in flames. Again, I ask why we could not simply abandon it - it's a piece of crap and there's no salvaging it. Kind of like how there was no salvaging Troy.)

Oh, and your fellow Wardens sit up the Anafels happy as clams, including that colossal loser Altair apparently (who doesn't even have the decency to send you a letter explainging what the hell that's all about), and none of them will have anything to do with you. They don't even give anything more than passing acknowledgment to your achievements (as a VERY unwilling hero. Thing I hate most about this game, why the hell were we FORCED to become stupid accursed Wadrens? Why couldn't we ask Duncan if we could serve him in some other way? In fact, why couldn't we simply ditch him in the wilderness? Everyone else seems free to accept or decline joining, and free to leave anytime after joing, why not us? So retarded).

Your sacrifices are meaningless to everyone. Nobody cares about you or anything you have ever done. They're very reluctant to recognize your achievements at all. Poor Garahel died for nothing, he was an elf so no one gives a steaming crap about him. Poor chap.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[actionhero112]

You realize that you are talking about a game whose common theme IN ALL CHARACTERS, is that they are outsiders on the fringe of society. None of these characters are arguably brought together by choice, as they have all been essentially exiled from their chosen callings. (with the exception of Alistair)

Therefore, its not surprising that once the common cause that kept them together disappears, that they go their separate ways.

Also, your warden's name goes down in history in every instance. That in itself should be a reward. You stopped the apocalypse. Everyone knows, and respects you.

And what do you expect, that generations of traditions and superstitions change in a matter of a couple years? As if. DA:O is a 'dark fantasy' and it certainly lives up to the genre it is placed in.

I mean, it seems like you are nitpicking here.

[Klidi]

Harrwomont, good? Really? He is civil and polite, yes - to nobles and people that are useful for him. But listen how he talks about casteless. Harrowmont might seem nice, but he want to keep the traditions that brought dwarves to crisis. It is logical, if you think about it, that to continue in that policy will ruin dwarf kingdom.

Bhelen is ruthless and arrogant, but he wants to change the society and caste system. He is willing to do necessary reforms, that could give dwarves a chance for fresh start.

So no, the game doesn't force you to side with the bad guy, the game tries to force you to listen and notice what's going on in Orzammar and then use your brain, think about it all and choose the solution you consider the best for the dwarven society.

The consequences of that decision are then shown in the epilogue.

[Tryynity]

So let me get this right.... TBE is not a big fan of Dragon Age Origins & Awakenings 

is there a thread regarding their opinion on DA2 Ive not yet had the joy of discovering ?

I'd hate to miss anything...

[ShimmeringDjinn]

@OP
Is there anything you actually like about this game?

[Klidi]

The Wardens were not common tourists in Orzammar, criticising different culture. They were asked to decide who will be the next king and in which direction will the dwarves go. They were asked to do this by dwarves themselves.

If someone asks the outsider to make decision for them, then he must be ready to bear consequences. And if someone asks the outsider to decide for them, then he has no right to complain or ask 'who are you to judge us'.

If any dwarf told that to any of my Wardens, they would be really angry. They'd say - 'Who am I? Why, the one you asked to sort your mess because you were not able to do so yourself.'

[Merilsell]

Aww, another thread about Awakening now? How refreshing. Can I have some cheese to the whine, please?

[Blitzkrieg0811]

This OP again? Your ability to avoid the banhammer is legendary

[FaeQueenCory]

I lived happily ever after with Alistair...
"Some claimed she returned to Alistair, her true love, and a life far away from both Ferelden and the royal court. Some say that she served the Grey Wardens elsewhere, Alistair at her side, or that the two of them were seen often at the palace in Denerim. After a number of years, however, neither she nor Alistair were seen again. perhaps they undertook some mission on behalf of the Grey Wardens, or departed for their own adventures, or... simply disappeared. Most assume their tale is far from complete..."

Really.... as long as Alistair and my Warden lived together for the rest of his 30 years... I'm happy. (Actually I'd probably figure out how to duplicate Duncan's magical dagger... so we could BOTH live out our natural life.... Or have by friend, The Architect, just make me one... Cause I'm sure it'd come up over the may sessions of tea we'd have.)

[The Minority]

*inb4 this thread gets high-jacked by cybering from the "usual suspects"*

[Merilsell]

^ This 

Modifié par Merilsell, 29 novembre 2011 - 02:13 .

[pplr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If you are not a Dwarf, you are an outsider and a Grey warden too. As an outsider you should respect other people tradition, no matter how good or bad it is in your opinion, it doesn't matter, because you are an outsider.


While Harrowmont, his view about caste, it is a Dwarven tradition and custom. As an outsider, she must respect it and not involve in such thing. Harrowmont is like you said, noble, civil and polite. She didn't see Harrowmont men killing on the street. So logically, she will help Harrowmont.


Demonizing Harrowmont and angelize Bhelen in the epilogue is ridiculous...

I'm not sure spoilers are allowed here but the cat seem long out of the bag on this thread so here are a couple of points.

@Nizaris1

BS, as someone else already pointed out you are asked to make a choice.  And if the dwarven kingdom gets messed up becuase of what choice you make then that is at least partly on your Warden.

About "tradition"....  utter BS.

Even if you weren't called upon to make a choice if someone was getting beat up in the street and you let it happen because that was "tradition" in whatever town you visited then failling to help that person may at least partly be on you.

If you and the other person were outnumbered and you realized you'd just get beat up alongside that person then ok-less guilt for/on you.

But "tradition" is not alway a good excuse.

Sometimes you are a guest so going along with "tradition" is the polite thing to do.  Fine.  But when you were called on to make a choice so at that point being "polite" even fades away as suddenly you are in a position where you are expected to make a judgement call.

You're half right about Harrowmont and Bhelen.  Both are jerks (neither is an angel nor a demon).

Bhelen has no problems lying, cheating, or murdering, to get to the top-to me this is both unethical and perhaps a sign he is a pscyopath.

Harrowmont is a nice guy in person but he is perfectly comfortable with letting innocents (people who have done others no wrong) starve in the streets.

When you get to it both of them have horrible sides that would make me prefer to have neither be a leader.  But you're stuck with the choice between those 2.  So from those 2 you make a judgement call.

The downside of this is that those who starve due to or are killed by either one's enforcers are the downside of that call.  There may be an upside to each but it is up to you to try to figure out both the upside and downside of each figure.


@BHE (or on her/his comments)

Some of those criticism may be fair.  If you are made a Paragon or Bann or Noble or even a respected person and everyone treats you badly then that isn't fair and may even run counter to what the epligoue of DA:O said.

Thus the game add on Awadenings perhaps should have had scripts with more consistency or at least have a better explanation of how you go from newfound respect to general disrespect.

But life may not be as bad as you make it out to be either.  As a matter of fact I think some of your summarizations are inaccurate-that is wrong.  Not everyone hates you and you may still be in a position where of authority, where some people respect you, and/or where someone cares deeply about you based on your decisions.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

The Minority wrote...

*inb4 this thread gets high-jacked by cybering from the "usual suspects"*

*inb4 jokes about the usual suspects and "crappy endings"*

[Blitzkrieg0811]

mrcrusty wrote...

*inb4 jokes about the usual suspects and "crappy endings"*

Oh, you bastard...

[pplr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Surely if the Warden survive (not dead killing Archdemon) and then hear what happen in Orzamar, she will say "****....."

Perhaps, but that is, in part, because you didn't look terribly hard at the possible effects of this important decision before you made it.

Part of the info came from each candidate and their choosen/paid speakers but part of it came from other dwarves.

What did the cripple dwarf woman do to become born castless?  How about the other dwarves who were born that way?

Why is it so horrible if a dwarf visits the surface?  Even for one week and they are somehow rejected-where is the justice in that (hint there isn't and even if you claim they were warned that doesn't make it just-it may make them martyrs for willing to suffer a penatly for doing something they see as necessary or right)?

Getting killed in Orzamar is not Dwarven tradition, only some bad and evil Dwarves do such thing.

Yes and no.  it is an open tradition that provings sometimes kill people and an open tradition that people sometimes starve in the streets.

It may be a hidden tradition that the sons and daughters kill each other in order to get the throne.

Now each of those may be evil and carrying them out may be an evil act but it doesn't mean that they cannot be part of a tradition and that at least that part of tradition is evil.

I don't agree, i have played Dwarf Noble, i don't see evil in Harrowmont. he is true to his tradition and a gentlemen. 

I played through both the Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner origins.  Harrowmont is true to his traditions-including the evil parts of those traditions.

That is where Harrowmont gets (and hints at) his own cruelty.

Being polite and a gentleman *to you* doesn't mean he cannot be *evil and cruel* to others.

pplr wrote
Bhelen has no problems lying, cheating, or murdering, to get to the top-to me this is both unethical and perhaps a sign he is a pscyopath.

That is why he is the evil one who will not bring Orzamar to glory.

Correction, that is why there is a good argument he wouldn't bring Orzammar to glory.  The fact is that ruthlessness and corruption among the leaders of a nation has brough nations to ruin.

But, as I pointed out before, Harrowmont is cruel in his own way.

So it isn't like Bhelen "is the evil one" as they are *both* evil in their own way.

pplr wrote...
Harrowmont is a nice guy in person but he is perfectly comfortable with letting innocents (people who have done others no wrong) starve in the streets.

That is not true, the epilogue can be made he make sure the system run well, no innocent dwarf being oppressed. being a casteless doen't mean the caste dwarves can do what they want to them. There are always rich and poor in anywhere in the world. Just being true to tradition doesn't make someone evil. Harrowmont is by character willing to listen, willing to investigate, know what is just and not just

BS, and you just made that last bit up about Harrowmont because he was nice your dwarf noble and was willing to investigate the problems of your dwarf noble.

Harrowmont was perfectly willing to ignore the problems of the casteless.

And he proved it.

My argument is based on logic. Someone like Bhelen will not bring glory to the empire. He is like Dwarven Hitler. Yes Hitler in history bring German to technological breakthrough and "glory", but in what cost? How many people die in his hand? Bhelen will be like Hitler if he rule.

Or he is like Castro.  Ruthless and unjust to his political enemies (to the point where he may belong in prison rather than the head of a nation), but still improving his nation in other ways.

Harrowmont is like a KKK member.  Nice to most white people (or most nobles) but horrible for others (casteless instead of black people).

Like I said before.  Each is evil in his own way.  The question is if you investigated enough to spot the evil in each one before making your choice.

If I had my way neither would be king-but that isn't an option in the game.

Modifié par pplr, 29 novembre 2011 - 03:10 .

[Klidi]

Nizaris1 wrote...

"Some claimed she returned to Alistair, her true love, and a life far away from both Ferelden and the royal court. Some say that she served the Grey Wardens elsewhere, Alistair at her side, or that the two of them were seen often at the palace in Denerim. After a number of years, however, neither she nor Alistair were seen again. perhaps they undertook some mission on behalf of the Grey Wardens, or departed for their own adventures, or... simply disappeared after they had  the most gruesome death in the Deep Road....Most assume their tale is far from complete..."

fixed

You know, if they disappeared and their story is FAR FROM COMPLETE - put in capital and bold, because you clearly overlooked it before - then they obviously did not go and die in the Deep Roads. That's logic, you know. If they were dead, their story would be complete.

And while it is tradition of the Grey Wardens to go for their Calling to the Deep Roads, it doesn't necessarily mean that they followed that decision.
- maybe they decided not to and committed together a suicide by taking a poison, when their time came
- maybe they died during some adventure
- maybe they found cure

The epilogue doesn't say it and it's up to everyone how they role-play it for their Warden.

So please, stop enforcing your own biased views to everyone as the only correct. It is... silly, to put it mildly.