261 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Some are less subjective, more informed, studied, analytical and consistent than others.

I am not fond of this false dichotomy of 100% objective vs 100% subjective, where more often than not it's in between and the goal to strive for is on the left.

I think the term you are looking for is intersubjectivity or shared subjectivity which is not the same thing as objectivity.  There's no dichotomy...objectivity (by the strict definition) isn't even possible when discussing standards that come from people, either as individuals or a group.

Trying to define standards that most people agree on is one thing, but that doesn't make them objective because most people agree to them.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Objective standards depending on how they define an RPG, which then allows them to nominate DA2 and Deus Ex (very different games), and not TW2. Their definition of an RPG might be subjective, but they can be objective when judging games according to that definition.

That's intersubjectivity.   These rules and definitions are subject to change with time/culture/etc. so they cannot be objective in the purest sense of the word (i.e., independent of contingencies).

I think it's going to be nearly impossible to get most video game players and reviewers to agree on one set of standards to measure a game and then more defined standards for measuring specific parts of the game (combat, story, etc.).  What makes for good combat?  What makes for an interesting political story?  These answers will depend on the reviewer.  Some think the DA2 political story was good...you don't.  It's subjective.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...
That's intersubjectivity.   These rules and definitions are subject to change with time/culture/etc. so they cannot be objective in the purest sense of the word (i.e., independent of contingencies).

I am not interested in going to semantics at the moment (and I disagree that some objectivity is not possible). So sure, I said before "some semblance of objectivity" and not objectivity in the "strict sense of the word". 

EDIT: furthermore, like I said earlier, the standards can be and are subjective, but one can objectively adhere to them. For instance, I might like a game more than others because it caters to my personal interests, but if I rate other games higher because they conform better to the agreed upon criteria despite the fact that I like them less, then I am being objective with accordance to these accepted criteria. If you want another way to formulate it, then "consistent and with a suppressed bias".

 Some think the DA2 political story was good...you don't.  It's subjective.

No it's not.
The only standard we have that we can base our assement on is real life and DA2's political plot is ridiculous in that regard. Those who believe otherwise are simply wrong. 

They can believe it was interesting, that is subjective. But they are innacurate if they say DA2's political plot was realistic.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 novembre 2011 - 09:37 .

[AshedMan]

I predict Skyrim for Game of the Year. It is unbelievably awesome! It might even be better than Morrowind.

[hoorayforicecream]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

 Some think the DA2 political story was good...you don't.  It's subjective.

No it's not.
The only standard we have that we can base our assement on is real life and DA2's political plot is ridiculous in that regard. Those who believe otherwise are simply wrong. 

They can believe it was interesting, that is subjective. But they are innacurate if they say DA2's political plot was realistic.

I don't believe anyone mentioned realism anywhere until you just brought it up. Her position was that some found the story "good" and/or "interesting". Equating either of those terms to "realistic" is foolish at best, and a strawman tactic at worst.

[Morroian]

AshedMan wrote...

I predict Skyrim for Game of the Year. It is unbelievably awesome! It might even be better than Morrowind.

Right now Skyrim is not just GOTY for me but possibly GOAT.

[Faust1979]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Nameless one7 wrote...

Dragon age 2 was a good game, there's nothing wrong with it being on that list and the witcher 2 not being on it. I thought Dragon Age 2 was a lot better then the witcher 2.

Not sure if serious or sarcastic.

why is it so hard for some people to believe that there are people that liked Dragon Age 2? I liked the game a lot and have played through it several times. It's an awesome game. 

[Sylvianus]

There aren't much rpgs in a year, It seems decent that DA2 is nominated. Especially when Dark Soul is nominated lol.

Otherwise, The witcher 2 isn't a multiplatform rpg, unlike DA2. We can't evaluate it on the same level. ( sales, we don't know if this game would sell well on console as much as on the pc. )

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 novembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[Rockworm503]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Also, off the top of my head, both PC Gamer and the Escapist rated TW2 lower. BEFORE you say that they were paid off or that they are idiots, that instantly proves your claim that none of the major reviewers rated it lower, wrong. Unless you don't consider them major reviewers...

Yes I don't consider them.

Major reviewers = Gametrailers, IGN and Gamespot. Hell even Xplay gave it a 5/5 score,

As for the escapist? Yeah I bet they didn't get bought off when their own site was full with DA2 banners pre-launch.

LMAO didn't every website have Skyrim ads everywhere for months?  You can't claim one site got paid off for having ads in their websites unless your going to do that with all of them.
Your hatred for DA2 trancends simple logic.

[xkg]

Sylvianus wrote...
Otherwise, The witcher 2 isn't a multiplatform rpg, unlike DA2. We can't evaluate it on the same level. ( sales, we don't know if this game would sell well on console as much as on the pc. )

Maybe more like "isn't a console game" rather than "multiplatform"

Lets see:

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword  -  Wii only game
Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception  -  PS3 only game

Yet they both are nominated for GOTY award.
http://www.spike.com...ame-of-the-year

And about sales ... The Legend of Zelda isn't even out yet so this argument is very weak.

Modifié par xkg, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:13 .

[Sylvianus]

xkg wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Otherwise, The witcher 2 isn't a multiplatform rpg, unlike DA2. We can't evaluate it on the same level. ( sales, we don't know if this game would sell well on console as much as on the pc. )

Maybe more like "isn't a console game" rather than "multiplatform"

Lets see:

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword  -  Wii only game
Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception  -  PS3 only game

Yet they both are nominated for GOTY award.
http://www.spike.com...ame-of-the-year

And about sales ... The Legend of Zelda isn't even out yet so this argument is very weak.

Okay let's be MORE clear for fools like you.

Zelda , yes it isn't a multiplatform, but it will be sold by  millions. It is already expected to be one of the biggest games on wii, and one of the largest sales.

So that's why Zelda and Uncharted for ps3 are taken into account.

The witcher 2 ? Not more than 500 000.

The pc only isn't enough to evaluate compared to the others games. Data are as much important as subjective opinions.

It would be the same for Skyrim not even released , and yet, already nominated. Because of sales expected.

Do you understand now ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:36 .

[Rockworm503]

Lets be honest here.
As far as Spike is conserened PC gaming doesn't even exist anymore.

[Zanallen]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Lets be honest here.
As far as Spike is conserened PC gaming doesn't even exist anymore.

It exists in the PC game category.

[DukeOfNukes]

My most anticipated game isn't on there...Darksiders 2...WOOT

EDIT: also, how am I supposed to vote on GOTY when 1 of the titles isn't out yet.

As to DA2...name 5 actual RPG's that came out this year. I'll give you 3: Skyrim, Dark Souls, Witcher 2....

Modifié par DukeOfNukes, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:47 .

[Sylvianus]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Lets be honest here.
As far as Spike is conserened PC gaming doesn't even exist anymore.

Honest about what ? I don't care what you think about Spike, if you want to think there is a plot against pc gamers, do it, I'm not interested in such things. But don't come to me to contest my opinion simply because based on something else that your theory.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

 Some think the DA2 political story was good...you don't.  It's subjective.

No it's not.
The only standard we have that we can base our assement on is real life and DA2's political plot is ridiculous in that regard. Those who believe otherwise are simply wrong. 

They can believe it was interesting, that is subjective. But they are innacurate if they say DA2's political plot was realistic.

I don't believe anyone mentioned realism anywhere until you just brought it up. Her position was that some found the story "good" and/or "interesting". Equating either of those terms to "realistic" is foolish at best, and a strawman tactic at worst.

Key word was "political". They can think the story was good, that was not the point. I am talking about a specific domain within that story.

What constitutes a "good political plot" is how much it conforms to the only objective standard we have, which is real life politics.

You can find a political plot very interesting, but if from an objective academic perspective, it's bad (as in unrealistic, over the top, very poorly concieved...etc), then it's bad. No amount of interest will change that, and those interested don't have to care. 

[Jestina]

Another awful list.

Dark Souls...Isn't that a console game? Maybe if this was a console only list.
Deus Ex is not an RPG. Should have been in the adventure category.
DA II should be buried in a landfill and forgotten about.

Skyrim should win by default as there is no competition this year.

[Rockworm503]

Sylvianus wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

Lets be honest here.
As far as Spike is conserened PC gaming doesn't even exist anymore.

Honest about what ? I don't care what you think about Spike, if you want to think there is a plot against pc gamers, do it, I'm not interested in such things. But don't come to me to contest my opinion simply because based on something else that your theory.

The proof is right there guy.
You can ignore it all you want but the whole awards show will be using consoles to show off everything.

There is a PC catagory but that doesn't mean anything when the rest of the catogries are consoles. 
No conspiracy here Spike believes more people are on consoles.  Their appealing to their audience its that simple.

[Jonp382]

Sylvianus wrote...

xkg wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Otherwise, The witcher 2 isn't a multiplatform rpg, unlike DA2. We can't evaluate it on the same level. ( sales, we don't know if this game would sell well on console as much as on the pc. )

Maybe more like "isn't a console game" rather than "multiplatform"

Lets see:

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword  -  Wii only game
Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception  -  PS3 only game

Yet they both are nominated for GOTY award.
http://www.spike.com...ame-of-the-year

And about sales ... The Legend of Zelda isn't even out yet so this argument is very weak.

Okay let's be MORE clear for fools like you.

Zelda , yes it isn't a multiplatform, but it will be sold by  millions. It is already expected to be one of the biggest games on wii, and one of the largest sales.

So that's why Zelda and Uncharted for ps3 are taken into account.

The witcher 2 ? Not more than 500 000.

The pc only isn't enough to evaluate compared to the others games. Data are as much important as subjective opinions.

That's very misleading. CD Projekt Red themselves stated that The Witcher 2 had sold almost a million copies through to August. Seeing how they sold 940,000 then, it's reasonable to assume that they've sold over a million by now.

[DukeOfNukes]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What constitutes a "good political plot" is how much it conforms to the only objective standard we have, which is real life politics.

lol wut? So if I write a story about Indonesian politics, that means it's a bad political plot by default?

Dragon age 2 was nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. It was nowhere near as good as the 1st game, but that doesn't make it terrible. It was still good, and the main story held my interest. It was all the loathsome sidequests, running through the same 3 areas repeatedly that made it frustrating for me. The story itself was interesting, if unfocused.

[DukeOfNukes]

Jestina wrote...

Dark Souls...Isn't that a console game? Maybe if this was a console only list.

How does Dark Souls lose simply because it's a console game? Did you play it? Do you know ANYTHING about it?

[Nope Dot Avi]

DukeOfNukes wrote...

My most anticipated game isn't on there...Darksiders 2...WOOT

EDIT: also, how am I supposed to vote on GOTY when 1 of the titles isn't out yet.

As to DA2...name 5 actual RPG's that came out this year. I'll give you 3: Skyrim, Dark Souls, Witcher 2....

Diablo III and Deus Ex 3. There's 5.

If you count JRPG ports, Devil Survivor: Overclocked, Persona 2, and Ni No Kuni.

All absurdly better than DA2.

Modifié par Nope Dot Avi, 18 novembre 2011 - 06:52 .

[PaulSX]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Nameless one7 wrote...

Dragon age 2 was a good game, there's nothing wrong with it being on that list and the witcher 2 not being on it. I thought Dragon Age 2 was a lot better then the witcher 2.

Not sure if serious or sarcastic.

Though both games disppointed me, I also like DA2 better. I personally hate TW2's combat especially those stupid boss fights qtes and longwinded dialogs. TW1 in my opinion was vastly better.

[DukeOfNukes]

Ok...a few things

1) Diablo 3 didn't come out this year.
2) Devil Surivor and Persona 2 are re-releases. I'm not 100% sure, but I'd imagine that makes them instantly not eligible.
3) Ni no Kuni hasn't been released in the west yet, and as such, most likely isn't eligible.
4) I've honestly never heard of Deus Ex 3 being refered to as an actual RPG. Most of what I've heard is that Deus Ex 3 is a shooter with "RPG elements" (ie the ability to upgrade). I only played the demo, so I have no real clue of which is the truth...suffice to say I'm a little skeptical of people calling it an RPG. I don't generally consider something an RPG unless you have a certain level of control over where you are/what you're doing...and it seemed like a fairly standard shooter to me.

[Lord_Valandil]

Faust1979 wrote...

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Nameless one7 wrote...

Dragon age 2 was a good game, there's nothing wrong with it being on that list and the witcher 2 not being on it. I thought Dragon Age 2 was a lot better then the witcher 2.

Not sure if serious or sarcastic.

why is it so hard for some people to believe that there are people that liked Dragon Age 2? I liked the game a lot and have played through it several times. It's an awesome game. 

There's nothing wrong with you or other people liking the game.
I like a lot of "bad" movies, and I don't think that I'm stupid because of that. But I'm not going to pretend that Resident Evil or Sucker Punch deserve an Oscar for Best Flick.
So, I respect the fact that some people like (or even love) DA2. But to think it's better than The Witcher 2 or that it's the cream of the crop is going way too far.
And no, I'm not a "Witcher fanboy"...but come on.

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

How did DAII get nominated?

Because,
despite all of everyone's b*tching, it's a very good game. It's nothing
like DA:O, but it's still a very good game, and you'd be ignorant or
simple to say otherwise. Look at what's out there today, and look at
DAII. It's better than most, and that's a fact.

What is a "fact"?
That it's better than some crappy shovelware and some horrible little titles? Well, yes, even the widely hated Sonic the Hedgehog '06 is way better than Drake of the 99 Dragons. So what?
That's like saying that dying poisoned is good because it's not as bad as dying by drowning.


P.S. I don't intend any offense to you guys, or to someone else.
I know sometimes I can look "aggressive" or maybe rude, or maybe I worry too much about that. Anyways, if you don't like my tone you can tell me. It's not my intention to offend anyone.
Cheers.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 18 novembre 2011 - 07:40 .