261 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

billy the squid wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If people think that an idiotic political plot was interesting, then good for them. But it's simply not a good political plot, because what makes a political plot good is precisely how political it is (as in, complex, not bipolar and simple....etc). 

A good political plot has to be...political?

Regardless....saying that an ingame political plot has to be 'politcal' or 'complex' and mirror real life for it to be good is still a subjective measure.

Yes, or it is no longer a political plot. Rather pointless isn't it.
 

I'm pretty sure the idea behind j's statement was that for a political plot to be good, simply being political doesn't necessarily make it good.

A romantic plot for instance can be romantic as hell and still not necessarily be good.

A combination of both elements (cover the subject at hand thoroughly AND do it in a good way) is what makes a good "insert topic of choice" plot.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 19 novembre 2011 - 02:24 .

[jlb524]

It's just nonsense to say a what discerns a bad political plot from a good political plot is that the latter is 'political'. Isn't the former political too (even if it's 'bad' in someone's opinion)?

The statement isn't really saying anything.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...

It's just nonsense to say a what discerns a bad political plot from a good political plot is that the latter is 'political'. Isn't the former political too (even if it's 'bad' in someone's opinion)?

No, the former aims to be political but fails at it (DA2) or is mediocre in its portrayal (all other bioware games I played). The latter succeeds in being close to representating politics as it is in real life (TW2). In otherwords, succeeds at being political.
It is not a matter of opinion.

@ Z
Hence I keep emphasizing that I am only talking about the political plot. The story can be great with ****ty politics, that's not the point. The point is, ****ty politics is ****ty politics, it's not a matter of opinion.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 novembre 2011 - 03:04 .

[billy the squid]

jlb524 wrote...

It's just nonsense to say a what discerns a bad political plot from a good political plot is that the latter is 'political'. Isn't the former political too (even if it's 'bad' in someone's opinion)?

The statement isn't really saying anything.

It is the connotation that politics has, it is complicated and largely grey with factionalism, backstabbing and machiavellian intreagues. Placing two opposing factions in a story and making it A vs B without the details and complexity inherent in any and all political systems, doesn't make it a political plot it just makes it one faction vs another, something which I can expect from a more tradditional story with clearly deleniated groups.

Paticularly when groups are represented as a homogenous mass, with no disagreement or infighting, it becomes poor in the simplictic portrayal of how factions and individuals operate seperately and as a social group. It is no longer political as it represents nothing of how politics operates it is rendered down to one theme against another.

Mages vs Templars, Freedom vs Security... whether one enjoyed the plot or the theme is not an issue in my mind, it had merit, but the implementation was lacking as it retained none of the hallmarks which are associated with politics.

Modifié par billy the squid, 19 novembre 2011 - 03:08 .

[Chromie]

Billy give us a lawyer joke.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Z
Hence I keep emphasizing that I am only talking about the political plot. The story can be great with ****ty politics, that's not the point. The point is, ****ty politics is ****ty politics, it's not a matter of opinion.

I know what you mean, we discussed that quite a while ago in the old group when I made the analogy to the comparison between the DAO and ME2 romances (about which one had more depth, which wasn't really a subjective matter).

And this is just me being silly because I think sillyness is needed now... but ***ty politics can still be realisitc. Have you not seen the stupid moves some politicians make in real life? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
And this is just me being silly because I think sillyness is needed now... but ***ty politics can still be realisitc. Have you not seen the stupid moves some politicians make in real life? 

Sure they do, it's part of the human condition. But they function within a whole lot of other dynamics, international, regional, domestic....etc, usually in interaction with several factions and sub-factions. Incompetence is not apolitical.

Overflowing the thing with incompetence and insanity, with a simplistic bipolar dichotomy without even trying to explore inner-faction relations is another thing. But we already discussed that

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 novembre 2011 - 03:13 .

[jlb524]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, the former aims to be political but fails at it (DA2) or is mediocre in its portrayal (all other bioware games I played). The latter succeeds in being close to representating politics as it is in real life (TW2). In otherwords, succeeds at being political.
It is not a matter of opinion.

I'm not arguing which one is closer to real life.  I've never played TW2 (won't either).  DA2 had political issues....oppression of a group of people, for instance.  class issues.  These are real life things.

I'm saying that the criteria:  "a political story must be close to real life politics for it to be good" is an opinion.  And I'm still not sure who's politics you mean, as there are varying theories and areas within that subject body.  Which is 'best'?  

[billy the squid]

Ringo12 wrote...

Billy give us a lawyer joke.

A new client had just come in to see a lawyer.

"Can you tell me how much you charge?", said the client.
"Of course", the lawyer replied, "I charge £200 to answer three questions!"
"Well that's a bit steep, isn't it?"
"Yes it is", said the lawyer, "And what's your third question?"

I'm not a lawyer so I'm not such a deplorable person, but I studied law, so I picked up some of the bad habits along the way.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
And this is just me being silly because I think sillyness is needed now... but ***ty politics can still be realisitc. Have you not seen the stupid moves some politicians make in real life? 

Sure they do, it's part of the human condition. But they function within a whole lot of other dynamics, international, regional, domestic....etc, usually in interaction with several factions and sub-factions. Incompetence is not apolitical.

Overflowing the thing with incompetence and insanity, with a simplistic bipolar dichotomy without even trying to explore inner-faction relations is another thing. But we already discussed that

And I even agreed with you back then! 

Still do regarding which game has the better political plot between TW2 and DA2.  Not even a contest really... imo anyway. :innocent:

billy the squid wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Billy give us a lawyer joke.

A new client had just come in to see a lawyer. 

"Can you tell me how much you charge?", said the client. 
"Of course", the lawyer replied, "I charge £200 to answer three questions!" 
"Well that's a bit steep, isn't it?" 
"Yes it is", said the lawyer, "And what's your third question?"

I'm not a lawyer so I'm not such a deplorable person, but I studied law, so I picked up some of the bad habits along the way.

Haha, one of my law teachers (before I dropped out of law school) used to make that joke too.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 19 novembre 2011 - 03:23 .

[Chromie]

billy the squid wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Billy give us a lawyer joke.

A new client had just come in to see a lawyer.

"Can you tell me how much you charge?", said the client.
"Of course", the lawyer replied, "I charge £200 to answer three questions!"
"Well that's a bit steep, isn't it?"
"Yes it is", said the lawyer, "And what's your third question?"

I'm not a lawyer so I'm not such a deplorable person, but I studied law, so I picked up some of the bad habits along the way.

I can't tell which is the joke

jlb524 wrote...


I'm not arguing which one is closer to real life. I've never played TW2 (won't either). DA2 had political issues....oppression of a group of people, for instance. class issues. These are real life things.

Yea it did but it was executed very poorly. Real shame you don't plan on trying Witcher 2 so you can see how a game that actually not only does it well but uses the politics to enhance the characters.

Modifié par Ringo12, 19 novembre 2011 - 03:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...
I'm not arguing which one is closer to real life.  I've never played TW2 (won't either).  DA2 had political issues....oppression of a group of people, for instance.  class issues.  These are real life things.

Done poorly (simplistic bipolar dichotomy, no exploration of inner-faction politics, over the top insanity and idiocy...etc etc). Having political issues does not make a plot good politically. 

I'm saying that the criteria:  "a political story must be close to real life politics for it to be good" is an opinion.  And I'm still not sure who's politics you mean, as there are varying theories and areas within that subject body.  Which is 'best'? 

Again, all theories agree on all factors at play, they disagree on the importance (for instance, Neo-Realists argue that nation states are the primary actors in itnernational relations, while Neo-Liberals, not unaware of the importance of states, argue that international organizations also play an important role and help alleviate the anarchic status of international politics). You will not see a political theory saying that all conflicts are solely about two factions opposed to each other, with an overflow of idiocy and insanity, with no exploration whatsoever of the inner-faction politics. That is simply gibberish. 

Real life politics is the only standard we have by which we can judge if a political plot is political, so no it's not an opinion.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 novembre 2011 - 03:34 .

[jlb524]

If I played the game, I might agree that TW2 is better in that area (or not). I don't know.

Still, at the heart of it all, that's an opinion. I don't know why people hate that word. There's really nothing wrong with opinions if you can back them up reasonably. You all seem to have good reasons for thinking TW2 is better for politics and that's fine (you're not saying it simply to troll or whatever). But I don't agree with feeling that this is 'fact' and that anyone who disagrees is dumb.

[billy the squid]

Ringo12 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Billy give us a lawyer joke.

A new client had just come in to see a lawyer.

"Can you tell me how much you charge?", said the client.
"Of course", the lawyer replied, "I charge £200 to answer three questions!"
"Well that's a bit steep, isn't it?"
"Yes it is", said the lawyer, "And what's your third question?"

I'm not a lawyer so I'm not such a deplorable person, but I studied law, so I picked up some of the bad habits along the way.

I can't tell which is the joke

 I didn't notice that.

Modifié par billy the squid, 19 novembre 2011 - 03:34 .

[slimgrin]

jlb524 wrote...

If I played the game, I might agree that TW2 is better in that area (or not). I don't know.

Still, at the heart of it all, that's an opinion. I don't know why people hate that word. There's really nothing wrong with opinions if you can back them up reasonably. You all seem to have good reasons for thinking TW2 is better for politics and that's fine (you're not saying it simply to troll or whatever). But I don't agree with feeling that this is 'fact' and that anyone who disagrees is dumb.

Human motivation - that which we can see, and that which we can try to perceive before it happens. This is what TW2 is all about.

Maybe DA2 did this as well. I didn't play it.

Modifié par slimgrin, 19 novembre 2011 - 03:43 .

[jlb524]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Real life politics is the only standard we have by which we can judge if a political plot is political, so no it's not an opinion.

You can't imagine another type of political situation that doesn't follow real life?

I agree that judging X in a game for how close it is to real life isn't an opinion, but I think that saying X in a game should be close to real life in order to make a game good is an opinion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...
I agree that judging X in a game for how close it is to real life isn't an opinion, but I think that saying X in a game should be close to real life in order to make a game good is an opinion.

I never said that. I said, if a game wants to have a good political plot, then it should be as close to real life politics as possible for it to be deemed good *politically*. I never argued that DA2 was bad because of that (it scores low for me because of that, because that's what I personally focus on). And I even forgot what brought this on in the first place.

Anyways, gtg. Cheers! 

[billy the squid]

jlb524 wrote...

If I played the game, I might agree that TW2 is better in that area (or not). I don't know.

Still, at the heart of it all, that's an opinion. I don't know why people hate that word. There's really nothing wrong with opinions if you can back them up reasonably. You all seem to have good reasons for thinking TW2 is better for politics and that's fine (you're not saying it simply to troll or whatever). But I don't agree with feeling that this is 'fact' and that anyone who disagrees is dumb.

On a slight tangent I dislike opinions being regarded as sacrosanct, ie: "well that's just your opinion" argument. Opinions can simply be outright wrong, paticularly if they are based on misinterpretation or erroneous information, if they then persist despite evidence to the contrary, then I consider them daft, although ususally by that point I've lost interest and wandered off somewhere.

In this case I don't consider those who hold an opinion that DA2 was good, daft, dumb or starved of oxygen. I didn't paticularly like it, but it doesn't bother me if they did, but I don't think that there should be any illusion that TW2 in terms of detail on factions alone far outstrips DA2.

Edit:
It doesn't make DA2's story bad, but it tried to create a political plot and largely failed, reverting back to the staple idea of both two dimesional factions in direct opposition to one another, doesn't make for a very intricate political plot. It works as a more traditional senario, but then why try to make it political in the first place if the necessary detail was not going to be put in, indeed much of the ground work in the lore was noted in DAO, but didn't appear in DA2, a wasted opportunity really, when the premise of the conflict was good.

Modifié par billy the squid, 19 novembre 2011 - 04:05 .

[jlb524]

I still think that is ultimately subjective b/c....well, let's pretend in the future that most people believe a good political plot in a game has to be as far from real life politics as possible (for whatever reason). Maybe they want it to be simpler? I don't know.

billy the squid wrote...
On a slight tangent I dislike opinions being regarded as sacrosanct, ie: "well that's just your opinion" argument. Opinions can simply be outright wrong, paticularly if they are based on misinterpretation or erroneous information, if they then persist despite evidence to the contrary, then I consider them daft, although ususally by that point I've lost interest and wandered off somewhere.

I agree.  I'm saying that your opinions seem to be good ones as you can back them up and they are reasoned.

billy the squid wrote...

In this case I don't consider those who hold an opinion that DA2 was good, daft, dumb or starved of oxygen. I didn't paticularly like it, but it doesn't bother me if they did, but I don't think that there should be any illusion that TW2 in terms of detail on factions alone far outstrips DA2.

I'm not aruging that it doesn't.

I just think that saying 'good political plot' = 'complexity and realism' is an opinion.  I do think it's a reasonable opinion to have.

Modifié par jlb524, 19 novembre 2011 - 04:04 .

[KenKenpachi]

Just to throw a Monkey Wrench into all of these, keep in mind it was once politics to just take a battle axe to the head of whomever did not agree with you, or to burn there whole city to the ground. Also even the nature of politics in modern times swings from "Lets shake hands then stab each other in the back tomorrow" too..... "Ellections? **** that." *Passes out AK's*

The Idea of there being a political "Norm" is a ****ing joke. Politics are a reflection of a society, its rules, customs, and what is and isn't allowed. In Japan a Minister may still kill himself when he fails, in England he drives away to live in a mansion. In South Korea its not uncommon for some crap that makes the WWE look like childs play to break out in the chamber. While in America even using "harsh" words can get you thrown out.

The "normality" is a lie and a dellusion that those who are disgusted with what they see use as a means to not change, as that takes effort. And most people are the sorts who will always take the easiest path. Why change **** nad run the risk of getting killed, when you can just **** and moan. Or on the other end those who like what they see, and want to keep the cattle in line.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 19 novembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[fchopin]

I can not take Spike seriously when DA2 is nominated for best rpg and TW2 is not. Do not even care which game wins when the real rpg's are not included in the selection.

[DukeOfNukes]

How do you figure that Skyrim and Dragon Age are not real RPG's?

[CroGamer002]

Pious_Augustus wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Because there are people who actually loved that game?

You had a Romance with Anders didnt you

Not yet and I'm not looking forward doing it.

It's just awful.

[Ultai]

Well at least it's in the pc game section, it's only worthy contender is Minecraft.

Skyrim wins by default at this point though, possibly even GOTY.

[xkg]

This award is a huge joke, seriously.

Two separate categories for sport games : "Indivdual sport games" Team sport games" but not even SINGLE category for strategy/rts games ?
WTF ? where is Sengoku ? Where is Shogun 2 ?

And all categories stiniks of consoles.
Because of course game like Uncharted have better graphics than maxed out TW2 or BF3 - LMAO what a laugh.

Modifié par xkg, 19 novembre 2011 - 11:36 .