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Thermal Clips: On/Off switch in the menu?


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#126
robarcool

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Bluko wrote...

I find it highly amusingly the Devs create an Action Mode (even though no one in my recollection has ever asked for such a thing), but creating an Old School Mode with weapons that function like ME1? Nah...

Look my issues with Thermal Clips isn't that I can't play the game with them or any such thing. It's just the simple reality that I do not find the introduction of ammo "fun" in the series. I know the opposite is true for others. But from what I can tell there are significant amount of people who did like the Overheating Mechanic better. No we are probably not the majority. (I'd wager most people are indifferent to Thermal Clips being introduced rather then being for/against it.) But it is quite aggravating to see all our pleas brushed aside, especially in light of how Thermal Clips have failed to create any better sort of weapon balance.

Personally I'd be happy if there was just even one personal weapon that used a legitimate overheat mechanic you know as a sort of throwback thing. Maybe just a pistol, but hey that's something. Anyways while I doubt Bioware will ever do anything to bring back Overheating Mechanics I do have two suggestions for how Thermal Clips could be better implemented:

1) Individual Shots cannot be perserved from an ejected Thermal Clip

To me the fact that you can eject a clip, yet still retain shots from that clip is silly. Also I'd say it defeats the purpose of reloading altogether. I mean what's the purpose of manual reloads if you keep all your "shots" anyways? Convenience? I thought Thermal Clips were suppose to make the game more challenging/interesting for the player. 

If you eject a Thermal Clip manually you should lose any remaining shots. The only excuse I can see being made against is that it makes the game too hard. Which I find pretty laughable considering what a cake walk ME2 is.

2) Ammo is awarded per Kill

Seriously does anyone like picking up ammo? I mean really? Does anyone really like scrounging  to find ammunition on a regular basis? I don't and it's easily the most tiring feature of shooters.

Having "ammo drops" introduces a number of potential problems. First of all it discourages disposing of enemies by non-conventional means. Yes Bioware did implement a feature so that Thermal Clips jump out of enemies before they fall off a ledge. But this still remains a poor concept as enemies that are out of the player zone cannot re-supply players for spent ammuntion.

I.E. Say there's a level with Snipers on towers that the player cannot reach. Any shots the player expends cannot be re-supplied by them dropping ammo. The only solution to such a problem is to introduce a convenient ammo cache for the player. (And this was exactly how Grunt's mission worked. Gee sure is nice Thermal Clips keep popping out of the ground for me to kill Varren!)

Ammo awarded per kill would be a much better system. I mean so long as you can keep killing your enemies efficiently you don't have to worry about an ammo shortage or  having running out in the open like a complete moron simply to pick up another clip. This would also free up Bioware to include as many enemies as they want in a mission. Since as long as you can keep killing enemies your gun stays filled.

This concept could even be expanded to award more Ammo for more skilled kills. Say you get a Headshot, well then you get  an Extra Clip as a reward for your marksmens abilities. This could also allow a player who has run out of ammo to use Biotics or Tech to get ammunition for the weapons again.

Also the Ammo per Kill still penalizes players with poor accuracy. If you can't hit or kill anything then you don't get any ammo. But on the plus side it is also more player friendly as so long as player kills their enemy, even if they struggle too, they get a re-supply for their efforts.

ME1's Auto-Loot feature for enemies was a nice idea, but poorly implemented via the game's items and inventory. Why not bring a good idea back for an actual useful purpose?

Well, one problem with ammo award per count is that it will give people almost zero incentive to move out of cover during a fight, except for vanguards of course. Why would anyone get out of cover if they are getting their regular supply of ammo right where they are crouching behind a crate? I don't say that I like moving around for clips, but ammo per kill will make the game a little too easy.
What I think is that they need to beef up the ammo drop dynamically based on player skill (something L4D does with the no. of Zombies) and a huge maximum ammo count. So, if you are skilled, you get somewhat less ammo and if you need help, you have more ammo to fill up your whole pool.

#127
robarcool

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Also, nothing is better than an AI that knows how to flank and be a real pain for the player.

#128
Chuvvy

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I don't think this is a ridiculous request, considering they've implemented modes that completely remove dialog from the game, and modes that completely remove combat.

#129
Bogsnot1

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Juha81FIN wrote...

Why bother, modders get around it either way.


This.
If you dont like the way the devs make their games, then buy on PC and learn how to mod. Otherwise, you are just complaining about the resitrcitions you placed upon yourself.

#130
Eckswhyzee

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If you thought thermal clips was bad from a lore perspective, ammo for each kill is even more nonsensical.

robarcool:
What I think is that they need to beef up the ammo drop dynamically based on player skill (something L4D does with the no. of Zombies) and a huge maximum ammo count. So, if you are skilled, you get somewhat less ammo and if you need help, you have more ammo to fill up your whole pool.

-That's definitely a good idea as well. Personally, I'd give the player a larger starting ammo pool, with more ammo for combat classes (Soldiers get the most, then Vanguards and Infiltrators, and then the other classes). Ammo would not be dropped from enemies at all, and would be resupplied by caches found throughout the environment.

Another random idea - you can fabricate thermal clips in the field by using your omni-tool. However, this will consume resources or credits.

@Slidell505
They don't have a mode that removes combat. Doesn't it just set the combat difficulty to the easiest?

Oh and one final thing, I recall the drop rate for ammo in Mass Effect 2 to be rather low, as I often resupplied from power cell boxes or ammo caches.

EDIT @Bogsnot

YES +100

Modifié par Eckswhyzee, 19 novembre 2011 - 04:11 .


#131
Someone With Mass

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robarcool wrote...

Also, nothing is better than an AI that knows how to flank and be a real pain for the player.


Phantom says hi.

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#132
Swampthing500

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Despite the incredibly backwards path Bioware has taken to implement ammo-clips, I find them a welcome addition. They improve combat because you have to actually aim and plan your shots, knowing that ammo is limited.

Modifié par Swampthing500, 19 novembre 2011 - 05:13 .


#133
Ghost-621

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Personally I preferred ME1's system of overheating and heat-sink/frictionless materials or rail extension/scram rail materials modifications that would either decrease or increase heat output and consequently, number of shots.

Wanna know a gigantic reason why? Because it was unique. Different from your typical shooter with pool ammunition.
Wanna know another gigantic reason? It made sense in the Mass Effect universe, and fit it better than renamed ammo clips.

But to appeal to a wider (COD, Halo, GOW) audience, we have overused and boring gun mechanics too. Bioware knows this, I know this, and you know this, regardless of how hard you fight to dismiss the truth.

Modifié par Ghost-621, 19 novembre 2011 - 06:16 .


#134
Someone With Mass

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ME1's gun system was hardly unique, because Halo did that about six-seven years before Mass Effect.

By the way, letting guns overheat all the time on purpose? Not a good idea.

Not to mention that just because it's unique doesn't mean it's good.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 19 novembre 2011 - 06:34 .


#135
Patius Mehaffius

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crimzontearz wrote...

thermal clips make no sense without a codex entry specifying they also provide more power to the gun they "service"


seriously......Bioware should just retcon this and go for a simple active cool down system ala GoW2-3


If you mean the turret stuff, I agree.


It would be awesome if you had say, 5 thermal clips. The work in any weapon (except heavy weapons), but you only get five of them.

Your guns function similarly to ME1, but they overheat faster. Once your gun overheats, you can let it cool down, but at a slower rate than in ME1, OR, you can eject and replace your thermal clip. Also, instead of a heat meter, you have a VI given value of "estimated bullets" left. If you stop firing, this number will slowly crawl up to a number (like 10 for a pistol, 45 for the revnant, 5 for a shotgun, etc.) Different guns regen ammo at different rates, but a full clip takes about 15 seconds to regenerate if overheated for any gun. On the other hand, if the gun doesn't fully overheat, the cooldown phase is reduced by 50%, only taking 7.5 seconds to go from the minimal level of rounds (let's say, 5% of a clip) to being fully refilled.

Then, to make things more interesting, there are only a few clips a mission. Like just two clips.


I know Bioware won't, but that's kind of how I imagined it worked in the ME universe anyways. Heat sinks that were basically the overheating mechanism from ME1, but ejectable once they reached a certain point. Obviously, for game play and design purposes, they wouldn't impliment it. And I really don't mind. The ammo system's a little faster for me anyways.

#136
Ghost-621

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Someone With Mass wrote...

ME1's gun system was hardly unique, because Halo did that about six-seven years before Mass Effect.

By the way, letting guns overheat all the time on purpose? Not a good idea.

Not to mention that just because it's unique doesn't mean it's good.


Hm. You know, the only time I seemed to intentionally overheat my gun was when I was messing around. As for "all the time," don't make me laugh. Fire with a brain, get the right mods, and you're good to go. I'm not even talking about the cryo rounds.

Halo's plasma guns were different from mass effect's. Poor comparison.

#137
Belisarius09

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Tiny Spoiler below***

I don't see why they can't accommodate this portion of the fan base with a simple on off switch.

they've gone through to trouble to make 3 different game modes, why can't they have two simple but different game mechanics

I don't know how to do spoiler tags, but i think most ppl know by now about story/action/rpg modes.

#138
onelifecrisis

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Bogsnot1 wrote...

Juha81FIN wrote...

Why bother, modders get around it either way.


This.
If you dont like the way the devs make their games, then buy on PC and learn how to mod. Otherwise, you are just complaining about the resitrcitions you placed upon yourself.


I have a PC, and know how to mod. My SH3 environment and GUI overhaul was downloaded over 10k times, and I've written my own ME2 PP shaders (trumpet! trumpet!). Unfortunately what I want is not as simple as just "gimme infinite ammo, thx" (which is easy to do). I also want to be rid of flashing red thermal clips everywhere, and I want the game to be/remain balanced as well*, neither of which are possible using standard ME2 hacks.

*ME2 sniper rifles, for example, only get half as much ammo (compared to other weapons) when you pick up a thermal clip. This is to balance them out and stop them being overpowered. The infinite ammo hack eliminates this, resulting in unbalanced sniper rifles.

#139
Someone With Mass

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Ghost-621 wrote...

Hm. You know, the only time I seemed to intentionally overheat my gun was when I was messing around. As for "all the time," don't make me laugh. Fire with a brain, get the right mods, and you're good to go. I'm not even talking about the cryo rounds.

Halo's plasma guns were different from mass effect's. Poor comparison.


I'm talking from a universe perspective. When you're cooling and overheating like that, not only are you running the risk of ruining the metals in the gun, you're also left vulnerable to enemy fire.

The new system channels the heat to the thermal clips (the old cooling system was removed to make room for the thermal clips), which later can be disposed off.

Does it limit the amount times you can fire? Sure, but if we had a extremely technical system, we would be limited to how many times we can fire regardless of the system because of the ammo blocks.

And if most firefights are going on for so long/so bad that you need to fire more than hundreds of rounds (soldiers can carry and manage the clips just as much as they can mange the ammo blocks, by the way) at the enemy, you have a bit of a problem. 

Point is: I don't think the thermal clips are that big of a deal. And, yes, I can spend a maximum of three seconds of my oh so precious time to look for clips or just wait until I stumble uppon some.

#140
111987

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Slidell505 wrote...

I don't think this is a ridiculous request, considering they've implemented modes that completely remove dialog from the game, and modes that completely remove combat.


No, they didn't.

#141
Swampthing500

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Ghost-621 wrote...

Personally I preferred ME1's system of overheating and heat-sink/frictionless materials or rail extension/scram rail materials modifications that would either decrease or increase heat output and consequently, number of shots.

Wanna know a gigantic reason why? Because it was unique. Different from your typical shooter with pool ammunition.
Wanna know another gigantic reason? It made sense in the Mass Effect universe, and fit it better than renamed ammo clips.

But to appeal to a wider (COD, Halo, GOW) audience, we have overused and boring gun mechanics too. Bioware knows this, I know this, and you know this, regardless of how hard you fight to dismiss the truth.


As vocal as I am about the obvious dumbing down of Mass Effect to appeal to fps-addicted skull-thumpers, I exist in a state of disagreement. I think that introducing ammo clips was intended to make the game more tactical (you have to conserve and watch your resources instead of just endlessly firing) rather than an attempt to recruit more bro-gamers.

Modifié par Swampthing500, 19 novembre 2011 - 11:21 .


#142
ScotGaymer

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I didn't understand the change at first. And it felt too much like a shooter for me to begin with and I really didn't like it at all.

But after playing the game for a bit I realise that the ammo clips vs overheating guns has very little practical difference in playing the game as the game drops enough ammo clips to make sure that you rarely, practically never run out.
I never ran out of ammo during my first play thru; at least not I got to the final boss (playing on Veteran btw) and I ran out then. But was the only place where I ran out and didn't have an immediate replacement.

So for me it genuinely makes no difference, and I genuinely dont care.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 19 novembre 2011 - 12:41 .


#143
PnXMarcin1PL

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FitScotGaymer wrote...

I didn't understand the change at first. And it felt too much like a shooter for me to begin with and I really didn't like it at all.

But after playing the game for a bit I realise that the ammo clips vs overheating guns has very little practical difference in playing the game as the game drops enough ammo clips to make sure that you rarely, practically never run out.
I never ran out of ammo during my first play thru; at least not I got to the final boss (playing on Veteran btw) and I ran out then. But was the only place where I ran out and didn't have an immediate replacement.

So for me it genuinely makes no difference, and I genuinely dont care.


I agree with ur point. I dont care about it either. Still it was very nice to install two level 10 coolers on assault rifle, so the weapon would never overheat. :devil:

#144
robarcool

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Ghost-621 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ME1's gun system was hardly unique, because Halo did that about six-seven years before Mass Effect.

By the way, letting guns overheat all the time on purpose? Not a good idea.

Not to mention that just because it's unique doesn't mean it's good.


Hm. You know, the only time I seemed to intentionally overheat my gun was when I was messing around. As for "all the time," don't make me laugh. Fire with a brain, get the right mods, and you're good to go. I'm not even talking about the cryo rounds.

Halo's plasma guns were different from mass effect's. Poor comparison.

Not poor comparision. The in game explanation may be different for Halo and ME, but from gameplay perspective, the guns worked in a similar fashion. You fire a few shots, the gun overheats and then you wait for it to cooldown., except that there is also a maximum ammo limit, which ME didn't have. Of course, ME made up for this by causing lesser amount of damage with each bullet, so you could not kill every ohter enemy with just 2-3 shots from a pistol or an assault rifle.

#145
Schneidend

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RolandX9 wrote...

Yes, some of us are still on about this. (2,000 years of infinite ammo, and no one keeps a pre-clip gun in the entire galaxy?) This seems like a simple solution, though, especially when the ME crew seems to be already going the extra mile to provide lots of options for game customization. I don't need the results to be exactly like the old heat meter. The "off" switch can simulate infinite clips, turn off the necessity to "reload" for half firing speed, whatever.


So, you want an option that basically functions like a Game Genie code? Infinite clips? Really? You're asking for an option that gives you a clear gameplay advantage at the cost of a negligible disadvantage for most weapons.

A resounding no on behalf of Bioware and anybody with some semblance of common sense, is what I have to say to this.

#146
Sgt Stryker

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Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm talking from a universe perspective. When you're cooling and overheating like that, not only are you running the risk of ruining the metals in the gun, you're also left vulnerable to enemy fire.

The new system channels the heat to the thermal clips (the old cooling system was removed to make room for the thermal clips), which later can be disposed off.

Does it limit the amount times you can fire? Sure, but if we had a extremely technical system, we would be limited to how many times we can fire regardless of the system because of the ammo blocks.


Right, but from an in-universe perspective, you're also vulnerable to enemy fire if you completely run out of thermal clips. Also, what if your enemy doesn't use thermal clips at all? What if you're fighting primitives who don't even use mass accelerator weapons (Mass Effect's version of Ewoks, for instance)? Granted, ME weapons never had infinite ammo to begin with, but with thermal clips you become combat ineffective that much faster.

Consider: According to lore, an M8 Avenger's ammo block can fire 4000 shots. According to gameplay, you only have enough thermal clips to fire 400 shots. Doesn't that seem like a bit of a waste?

#147
Someone With Mass

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Better make those shots count, then.

#148
Sgt Stryker

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If your weapons used the old cooldown system, you wouldn't have to "make those shots count." That is the opposite of progress, and no military commander in their right mind would ever adopt such a weapons system.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 19 novembre 2011 - 07:45 .


#149
robarcool

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Sgt Stryker wrote...

 What if you're fighting primitives who don't even use mass accelerator weapons (Mass Effect's version of Ewoks, for instance)?

Well, then Shepard will be like a boss with million health points to them, for ME sheilds are probably too tough to be cracked with conventional weapons. So if I fight such enemies, I could very well walk past them without even getting a scratch lol! :P

#150
Someone With Mass

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Sgt Stryker wrote...

If your weapons used the old cooldown system, you wouldn't have to "make those shots count." That is the opposite of progress, and no military commander in their right mind would ever adopt such a weapons system.


That argument would work if every military group in the galaxy had access to the same weapons and equipment as Shepard did.

Most of them probably can't afford to outfit every soldier with assault rifles of the highest class.

Plus, we all know how annoying it was when an enemy used Sabotage and you could do nothing but wait until your gun cooled down.

With the thermal clips, one simple ejection would've fixed that. Which is actually how most of the enemies are dealing with overheating weapons.