12 réponses à ce sujet

[StringfellowHawke]

While within Melee atmosphere, when you perform a Touch (Ranged) Attack like Eldritch Blast, would you incur an AoO? ie. is it considered a melee attack action or a ranged attack?

What about Touch (Melee) Attacks?

sry not too good with 3.5 rules

[Arkalezth]

Both can provoke AoOs.

[The Fred]

I don't think it's the (ranged) touch attack which is provoking the AoO but the "casting" of an Eldritch Blast (at least, not in NWN2 mechanics, but maybe it is in 3.5th rules).

[Arkalezth]

Yes, the reason is simply because it's a spell, so it may provoke AoOs as any other spell. And if you're into it (I tend to use Combat Expertise with my casters), defensive casting will prevent those AoOs as with any other spell.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:49 .

[Magnakai]

strange, cos wiki is giving the impression that eldritch is not spell at all. i don't know if it's even considered a spell-like innate ability. specific to nwn2 at least, it said to be considered a unique one-of-a-kind attack, even expressly exempted from armored spell failure, even if u r in heavy armor (there's no feat for 0% in heavy). the only thing which links it to a 'spell' or 'casting' is that they made the initial provision that if the target has SR it takes effect, but even this no longer applies once u have reached 10d6+ natural magnitude.

if u have a warlock, enter the fray and see if just throwing unmodified blasts while not in defensive casting grants ur enemies AoO or not, then that lets us know how the engine actually treats it. don't modify essence or form

Modifié par Magnakai, 20 novembre 2011 - 02:00 .

[MasterChanger]

Magnakai wrote...

strange, cos wiki is giving the impression that eldritch is not spell at all. i don't know if it's even considered a spell-like innate ability. specific to nwn2 at least, it said to be considered a unique one-of-a-kind attack, even expressly exempted from armored spell failure, even if u r in heavy armor (there's no feat for 0% in heavy). the only thing which links it to a 'spell' or 'casting' is that they made the initial provision that if the target has SR it takes effect, but even this no longer applies once u have reached 10d6+ natural magnitude.

Most of this information is inaccurate. EB really is practically a spell (I don't see where in the wiki description it implies otherwise). It is subject to arcane spell failure due to wearing armor (though not light armor, and not medium armor if you have the right feat).

From a scripting perspective, eldritch blast absolutely is a spell. An unmodified blast is used as a feat, but this is directly linked to a spell ID (844), which is linked to a spell script (nw_s0_ieldblast). I could create a spell that gives druids the mudane ability to throw snot, and it would be a spell if I had it use spell resistance and the like. I'm not sure what determines whether a feat/spell grants AoOs, but I suspect that it's based on whether it uses concentration (a setting in spells.2da).

if u have a warlock, enter the fray and see if just throwing unmodified blasts while not in defensive casting grants ur enemies AoO or not, then that lets us know how the engine actually treats it. don't modify essence or form

Many of the situations you're investigating are relatively easy to test if you use a module meant for that. I use Mithdradates' Hall of Training for testing build ideas and seeing how they fare against enemies. I think you could easily re-create the situation you're referring to above in that module.

[Arkalezth]

Lore apart, blasts (all shapes, as well as other invocations) are in practice spells. That's how game mechanics work. I don't need to test anything, I know how it works and I play warlocks regularly (and even then, shouldn't you be the one doing the tests?).

[painofdungeoneternal]

Warlocks do something called a spellability which is not an actual spell. This is mainly so the rules which say spells don't always apply to invocations, and are more akin to natural abilities monsters have to create magical effects without study or preparation beyond just rest, nor do they have verbal components. But just about every thing for spells has an equivalent for spell abilities.

This is pretty much saying they are not spells, but for all intents and purposes they work just like any other spell in game. Technically most of the game just does not care what word is used, they are using spells.2da just like any other spell, and any differences are pretty much single case exceptions.

For example invocations are not level 1-4 in a way that relates to spells, each lists an effective spell level, and there are 4th grade invocations that are 9th level. Basically other opposing casters treat this as if it was a 9th level effect to dispel if everything is working correctly. But at the same time dispel magic will work on an invocation and you don't need dispel spellability, just like you treat psionics as spell equivalents which work just like spells or the system becomes unmanageable.

[The Fred]

I believe that Eldritch Blast specifically, without Essences or Shapes, counts in NWN2 mechanics terms as a feat, and so doesn't trigger certain spell things. Someone correct me on this if it's not the case, though.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Yes its very wonky. Most of this has been redone in the CSL, but it's numerous fundamental issues basically caused by it's not actually being a spell, not even getting into issues caused by the original implementation followed the original and wrong per errata rulebooks.

[Magnakai]

MasterChanger wrote...

Magnakai wrote...

strange, cos wiki is giving the impression that eldritch is not spell at all. i don't know if it's even considered a spell-like innate ability. specific to nwn2 at least, it said to be considered a unique one-of-a-kind attack, even expressly exempted from armored spell failure, even if u r in heavy armor (there's no feat for 0% in heavy). the only thing which links it to a 'spell' or 'casting' is that they made the initial provision that if the target has SR it takes effect, but even this no longer applies once u have reached 10d6+ natural magnitude.

Most of this information is inaccurate. EB really is practically a spell (I don't see where in the wiki description it implies otherwise). It is subject to arcane spell failure due to wearing armor (though not light armor, and not medium armor if you have the right feat).

From a scripting perspective, eldritch blast absolutely is a spell. An unmodified blast is used as a feat, but this is directly linked to a spell ID (844), which is linked to a spell script (nw_s0_ieldblast). I could create a spell that gives druids the mudane ability to throw snot, and it would be a spell if I had it use spell resistance and the like. I'm not sure what determines whether a feat/spell grants AoOs, but I suspect that it's based on whether it uses concentration (a setting in spells.2da).

if u have a warlock, enter the fray and see if just throwing unmodified blasts while not in defensive casting grants ur enemies AoO or not, then that lets us know how the engine actually treats it. don't modify essence or form

Many of the situations you're investigating are relatively easy to test if you use a module meant for that. I use Mithdradates' Hall of Training for testing build ideas and seeing how they fare against enemies. I think you could easily re-create the situation you're referring to above in that module.

Here i'll cut and paste for you, from wiki.

this is what made me mention i read it as a one-of-a-kind attack, but SR supposed to apply. this was from 'Eldritch Blast' Page. :-

"An eldritch blast is a warlock's most useful natural ability. Eldritch blast is treated as a ranged touch attack (and as such, your Dexterity factors into the AB).

By default, eldritch blast has no specific type and is limited to a range of 30', with no saving throw (but spell resistance applies), and has an effective caster level (ECL) of 1."


And this is where it said that exemption thing. this was from the 'Warlock' Page, if u scroll down and read the end :-


"On the other hand, these are not subject to arcane spell failure (because they have no verbal or somatic component--whether this is intentional, or a bug, is open to question):

• Eldritch Blast (regardless of any shape or essence applied)
  
• Beguiling Influence
  
• Dark Foresight
  
• Dark One's Own Luck
  
• Darkness
  
• Devil's Sight
  
• Dread Seizure
  
• Entropic Warding
  
• Leaps and Bounds
  
• Otherworldly Whispers
  
• Retributive Invisibility
  
• See the Unseen
  
• Tenacious Plague
  
• Wall of Perilous Flame
  
• Word of Changing

NOTE: In the latest version (1.23) all of the Warlock's invocations are subject to arcane spell failure. Eldritch Blast as a spell-like ability is exempt."


***

My original post just letting you know what i read from Wiki.  that's what i read. whether any of the info errs, that's up to debate.

oh, but it did mention EB as a spell-like ability.

Modifié par Magnakai, 21 novembre 2011 - 09:15 .

[Arkalezth]

That's wrong, warlock invocations/blasts are subject to arcane spell failure unless you're in light armor (or medium if you take the feat Battle Caster).

Spell, spell-like, whatever they're called, they work as spells in practice (Concentration, AoOs, etc).

[painofdungeoneternal]

All warlock invocations are done via gestures, they all have somantic components only. Even "word" of changing for example is specifically somatic only. That is the only type of invocation where i overruled the given rules, just to make things make sense. 

For all intents and purposes spell-like means not every single feat which boosts spells will work for a warlock, but everything which is an issue with spells, those affect them. So you don't get benefits from the empower feat unless you have empower spell-like ability ( a separate feat ), but you get all the negatives which normally apply to spells. Mostly the rule is to prevent you making a 5 wizard, 10 arcane scholar, 20 warlock who can use all those fun metamagic feats to empower, quicken, maximize all your blasts.

This here is a good reference, but you need to read all the material, errata, FAQ and some of the discussions where Rich Baker is involved to really get a grasp of how the rules work.
Warlock_Faq_by_Rich_Baker. I can say those changes actually make warlock a pretty fun class to play, and there is a lot of balance in power relative to the other classes which are not completely obvious.

This is largely what i based my changes for the CSL library on. ( and no i didn't add the feature where you become an extraplanar creature since i've not yet fully developed planes yet, some stuff is just outside the scope of reason for me to develop, but it's got most of what is doable implemented )

Note that how the game works, is a mixture of pre-errata rules, complete bugs, areas which just stopped working to begin with since spell level is above 9 ( which is impossible in the engine ), but fortunately quite a bit was entirely done in nwscript coding and not in the engine.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 22 novembre 2011 - 06:43 .