304 réponses à ce sujet

[stysiaq]

SNascimento wrote...

stysiaq wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

It will be good for my newgames+ where story doesn't matter and I just want to shoot things.

I don't say that it is a bad approach, but personally I'd never play ME just to shoot things, mainly because there are better games for that purpose.

It's like with RPGs. When I want to care about a plot - I turn on BG or P:T. When I just want to swing a sword for some time, I turn on Skyrim.

For me the action mode could be equally named a 'handicapped' mode.

.
I never did it with Mass Effect. Mass Effect 2 however, has one of the best combats avaiable. All the story, all the choices, etc... are only important with the first playthrough of each character... in the newgame+ it doesn't, because it's just there for when I want to play a little. I don't even finish it... I just have a couple of saves from which I can play any mission in the game with few effort.
.
And since of spoke of Skyrim, I has a problem with combat that most RPGs (Mass Effect 1 included) have. Each is more about stats than finesse. Please, I'm not saying it's bad, but I just prefer skill over stats. Although I do love KoTOR's combat. 

Well, Skyrims combat is not perfect since its just dumb button-mashing till the monsters dead. But I was rather refering to the plot; TES are fun to play, but the main plot was never that much involving for me to rush it immediately (or even think about it much), rather than doing x different sidequests and visiting y caves.

skyrim minor spoiler alert: at the moment I'm at the point 'some bad people are bringing the dragons back, investigate the bad people'. Not very involving, although ME2 plot is like 'some bad insects are abducting people, investigate the case', but made few times better.

[Swampthing500]

Meshaber wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Movies and literature are not games. Games are meant to be interactive rather than purely passive. Given that ME3 is meant to be an RPG, I want more control than deciding where my character will shoot. I want to create my character, his class and appearance, I want different quest outcomes and dialogue options. I want as much control as possible within the confines of the medium.

No arguments here, I vastly games with a larger element of choice, I'm just against the idea that games without it are necessarily braindead. One of the positive sides I can see to action mode is that there is no disconnect, your character doesn't pause while the player conciders what action to take, he is his own character. Moral dilemmas can be presented excellently through dialoge without necessarily involving the player directly, it's easier to make the dialogue flow well if there aren't a multitude of different side topics (the "investigate" trees) that all have to lead back to the same main conversation. Player 'choice' can be restricted to exploration, combat and similar, areas, still having a linear game.

Personally, I wouldn't use it, I'm just saying linearity =/= stupidity.

But removing choice from a genre where choice is one of the key defining atrributes, for the purposes of attracting those who have no interest in that style of gameplay, is the very definition of brain-dead!

[stysiaq]

Meshaber wrote...

Personally, I wouldn't use it, I'm just saying linearity =/= stupidity.

Well, 90% of great games are quite (or even entirely) linear.
Recently I played Psychonauts (didnt finish it) and its wonderful, but 100% linear. Also, Dead Space, BioShock and so on.

For me its even hard to describe a truly non-linear game, if it has a main plot. In that scenario, The Sims are the only non-linear game.

[onelifecrisis]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Mass Effec tis an RPG, and is thus aimed towards those of generally higher intelligence and who might have a philosophical bent.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Thanks for the lulz. Also, you might want to look up casual gamer. I don't think it means what you think it means.
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Casual_game

[Meshaber]

stysiaq wrote...

Well, Skyrims combat is not perfect since its just dumb button-mashing till the monsters dead. But I was rather refering to the plot; TES are fun to play, but the main plot was never that much involving for me to rush it immediately (or even think about it much), rather than doing x different sidequests and visiting y caves.

skyrim minor spoiler alert: at the moment I'm at the point 'some bad people are bringing the dragons back, investigate the bad people'. Not very involving, although ME2 plot is like 'some bad insects are abducting people, investigate the case', but made few times better.

Any plot could be summarized in that way.

ME1: Some bad guy is working with robots, investigate the bad guy
Half-life 2: The evil aliens are controlling the world, stop them.
LotR: Some bad guy is trying to find a ring, throw it down a volcano.
1984: The evil politicians are controlling the world, have opinions about it.
Twilight: The vampires are sparkling, have sex with them.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Oh, I whole-heartedly agree with you. I see the inclusion of multiplayer and an "action" mode as a sign that the Bioware of old is dead, having been consumed and rendered a husk by the rEApers.

After ME3 which I was going to buy the ending of pretty much regardless (and pre-ordered the CE) Bioware won't be an auto $60 (or likely $70 in the future). Sad times were had by all.

[stysiaq]

Meshaber wrote...

stysiaq wrote...

Well, Skyrims combat is not perfect since its just dumb button-mashing till the monsters dead. But I was rather refering to the plot; TES are fun to play, but the main plot was never that much involving for me to rush it immediately (or even think about it much), rather than doing x different sidequests and visiting y caves.

skyrim minor spoiler alert: at the moment I'm at the point 'some bad people are bringing the dragons back, investigate the bad people'. Not very involving, although ME2 plot is like 'some bad insects are abducting people, investigate the case', but made few times better.

Any plot could be summarized in that way.

ME1: Some bad guy is working with robots, investigate the bad guy
Half-life 2: The evil aliens are controlling the world, stop them.
LotR: Some bad guy is trying to find a ring, throw it down a volcano.
1984: The evil politicians are controlling the world, have opinions about it.
Twilight: The vampires are sparkling, have sex with them.

What I was trying to say was that ME actually made me care about the main plot throughout the game rather than my regular TES gameplay, which is like:
1. Theres a dragon attack somewhere in the north east! go there!
2. Me: -mkay
3. Do 10 side quests, clear 5 caves out of bandits and so on (on the way to the main quest checkpoint)
4. So, what was the main plot about? Ah, yes "dragons".

Besides, hilarious 1984 and Twilight summaries (though my knowledge of Twilight comes entirely from internet memes)

[Meshaber]

Swampthing500 wrote...
But removing choice from a genre where choice is one of the key defining atrributes, for the purposes of attracting those who have no interest in that style of gameplay, is the very definition of brain-dead!

A very odd definition then.

I think people need to stop thinking in genres. "ME is an RPG so it should have features X, Y and Z".
If the element of choice was removed from ME, then it would simply no longer be an RPG (if we agree that choice is the defining feature of an RPG, which I agree it is but let's not even get into that), it would not necessarily be brain dead, it could still be very thought provoking.

Genres, imo, shouldn't be used as a template for what features should be in a game (or movie or w/e), it's just a quick description you offer someone when they ask what kind of game it is, deviating from that template is not necessarily bad, stupid or braindead, it just means that RPG (for example) doesn't describe the game very well any longer.

I would never want a developer to think along the lines of "what genre do I want my game to be?" and try to fit it into that frame.

[Swampthing500]

Meshaber wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...
But removing choice from a genre where choice is one of the key defining atrributes, for the purposes of attracting those who have no interest in that style of gameplay, is the very definition of brain-dead!

A very odd definition then.

I think people need to stop thinking in genres. "ME is an RPG so it should have features X, Y and Z".
If the element of choice was removed from ME, then it would simply no longer be an RPG (if we agree that choice is the defining feature of an RPG, which I agree it is but let's not even get into that), it would not necessarily be brain dead, it could still be very thought provoking.

Genres, imo, shouldn't be used as a template for what features should be in a game (or movie or w/e), it's just a quick description you offer someone when they ask what kind of game it is, deviating from that template is not necessarily bad, stupid or braindead, it just means that RPG (for example) doesn't describe the game very well any longer.

I would never want a developer to think along the lines of "what genre do I want my game to be?" and try to fit it into that frame.

But the choice and freedom present in the series is part of what attracted the current fan-base. Removing that just turns the game into another third-person-shooter clone where players can just mindlessly blow away each other whilst hurling juvenile insults.

[stysiaq]

Meshaber wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...
But removing choice from a genre where choice is one of the key defining atrributes, for the purposes of attracting those who have no interest in that style of gameplay, is the very definition of brain-dead!

A very odd definition then.

I think people need to stop thinking in genres. "ME is an RPG so it should have features X, Y and Z".
If the element of choice was removed from ME, then it would simply no longer be an RPG (if we agree that choice is the defining feature of an RPG, which I agree it is but let's not even get into that), it would not necessarily be brain dead, it could still be very thought provoking.

Genres, imo, shouldn't be used as a template for what features should be in a game (or movie or w/e), it's just a quick description you offer someone when they ask what kind of game it is, deviating from that template is not necessarily bad, stupid or braindead, it just means that RPG (for example) doesn't describe the game very well any longer.

I would never want a developer to think along the lines of "what genre do I want my game to be?" and try to fit it into that frame.

ME is a story-driven game, other than that it doesn't fit any template other than "BioWare story template". But its one of the few games that allow you to shape a part of that story. Now ME3 lets you play a version of the game, where you no longer have that possibility. What if in the next ME game it wil be the only game mode?

And I doubt that anyone here is really devoted to some RPG templates. Nobody cries that Planescape: Torment has no swords. What do we care about, is that one of the trademarks of ME brand is suddenly just an option.

At least that is what I'm worried about.

Cheers, gotta go.

[Meshaber]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Meshaber wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...
But removing choice from a genre where choice is one of the key defining atrributes, for the purposes of attracting those who have no interest in that style of gameplay, is the very definition of brain-dead!

A very odd definition then.

I think people need to stop thinking in genres. "ME is an RPG so it should have features X, Y and Z".
If the element of choice was removed from ME, then it would simply no longer be an RPG (if we agree that choice is the defining feature of an RPG, which I agree it is but let's not even get into that), it would not necessarily be brain dead, it could still be very thought provoking.

Genres, imo, shouldn't be used as a template for what features should be in a game (or movie or w/e), it's just a quick description you offer someone when they ask what kind of game it is, deviating from that template is not necessarily bad, stupid or braindead, it just means that RPG (for example) doesn't describe the game very well any longer.

I would never want a developer to think along the lines of "what genre do I want my game to be?" and try to fit it into that frame.

But the choice and freedom present in the series is part of what attracted the current fan-base. Removing that just turns the game into another third-person-shooter clone where players can just mindlessly blow away each other whilst hurling juvenile insults.

That's exactly what it would not do.

Mass effect, without being able to make dialogue choices, would still have the following:

Great storyline, great characters, extremely realistic dialogue (by video game standards), great soundtrack and (although I suppose that is also 'choice') a good leveling system.

Also keep in mind that if a game was designed to be 'like' Mass effect but without that (very central) element of choice, that effect would be incorporated in other ways. The dialogue would likely have even higher quality, specific conversations with party members would be played when they made the most sense and focus on the more important parts of them. We would also probably see a more alive and realistic world, where companions interact with each other more and aren't stuck in one spot calibrating thanix cannons all day.

I'm not arguing in favor of turning ME into a GoW clone, or removing choice from it. I'm saying games wherein the player has no direct impact on the story do not necessarily need to be brain dead third person shooters where people go "LUL I CAN HAZ EXPLOTIONZ AND BOOOOOOBZ", just like choice does not necessarily make a game intelligent (I'm looking at you, NWN2).

[Swampthing500]

Meshaber wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

Meshaber wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...
But removing choice from a genre where choice is one of the key defining atrributes, for the purposes of attracting those who have no interest in that style of gameplay, is the very definition of brain-dead!

A very odd definition then.

I think people need to stop thinking in genres. "ME is an RPG so it should have features X, Y and Z".
If the element of choice was removed from ME, then it would simply no longer be an RPG (if we agree that choice is the defining feature of an RPG, which I agree it is but let's not even get into that), it would not necessarily be brain dead, it could still be very thought provoking.

Genres, imo, shouldn't be used as a template for what features should be in a game (or movie or w/e), it's just a quick description you offer someone when they ask what kind of game it is, deviating from that template is not necessarily bad, stupid or braindead, it just means that RPG (for example) doesn't describe the game very well any longer.

I would never want a developer to think along the lines of "what genre do I want my game to be?" and try to fit it into that frame.

But the choice and freedom present in the series is part of what attracted the current fan-base. Removing that just turns the game into another third-person-shooter clone where players can just mindlessly blow away each other whilst hurling juvenile insults.

That's exactly what it would not do.

Mass effect, without being able to make dialogue choices, would still have the following:

Great storyline, great characters, extremely realistic dialogue (by video game standards), great soundtrack and (although I suppose that is also 'choice') a good leveling system.

Also keep in mind that if a game was designed to be 'like' Mass effect but without that (very central) element of choice, that effect would be incorporated in other ways. The dialogue would likely have even higher quality, specific conversations with party members would be played when they made the most sense and focus on the more important parts of them. We would also probably see a more alive and realistic world, where companions interact with each other more and aren't stuck in one spot calibrating thanix cannons all day.

I heavily disagree with that. High-quality dialogue is not exclusive to a player choosing dialogue options. Planescape: Torment has awesome dialogue, yet the player could still select a variety of different answers.

Once you lose the element of choice in character creation, dialogue and quest outcomes, an RPG becomes nothing more than a book where you have the option of walking to the next NPC to see the story unfold, rather than turn a page. RPGs are not about that, they are about having the player as an active and determining participant in all aspects of the story, not just success in combat.

[Meshaber]

Swampthing500 wrote...

I heavily disagree with that. High-quality dialogue is not exclusive to a player choosing dialogue options. Planescape: Torment has awesome dialogue, yet the player could still select a variety of different answers.

Once you lose the element of choice in character creation, dialogue and quest outcomes, an RPG becomes nothing more than a book where you have the option of walking to the next NPC to see the story unfold, rather than turn a page. RPGs are not about that, they are about having the player as an active and determining participant in all aspects of the story, not just success in combat.

You misunderstand me, I never said dialogue options necessairly make the dialoge bad, on the contrary I think it adds a lot. There is another side to it though, which is that when you have several dialogue options, all choices are not going to result in high quality dialogue (or, well, they can, but it takes a lot more resources), all of the voice acting isn't going to be quite as high quality as other options, and investigatory (did I just make that word up?) dialogue branches aren't always going to tie back into the main topic quite as easily, while several different places for a conversation to possibly end makes it a lot more difficult to write the lines so that it sounds like an actual conversation that ended at the appropriate time. That's why we get things like Jacob ending every line with "anything else commander?", and tonnes of conversations ending practically mid-sentence with Shepard saying "I should go". This problem is there in many older RPG's as well, it's just not as obvious because the lines aren't voiced. With only one possible dialogue, that kind of thing is a lot easier to avoid.

Furthermore, you're thinking about this in terms of having to make an RPG. I agree with you when you say that "this is what RPG's are about, yaddayaddayadda", I just disagree that an RPG is necessarily a game with more intelligent storytelling, characters, dialogue and such. If you change those things you don't make the game worse, you're just not making an RPG any longer. Furthermore, I agree that changing ME3 from an RPG to a shooter (those who say it already is can bite me) would be ridiculous, I'm just arguing against the generalization of other genres.

[Schneidend]

Adugan wrote...

This. Can't tell if trolling, or just stupid.

[Darkeus]

Maybe, if not I am sure you are a minority.

[ArkkAngel007]

Wanting it: No.

Going to cause me pain and Misery: No.

So do I care: Abosolutely not.

Modifié par ArkkAngel007, 18 novembre 2011 - 06:42 .

[Sharizah]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Wanting it: No.

Going to cause me pain and Misery: No.

So do I care: Abosolutely not.

This ;P
As long as I have my "RPG mode" (or whatever) I'm happy

[The Sapien]

The mode isn't being introduced for just one person in the whole world.
However, we're doing our best to make that mode feel unique to you, nonetheless.

[BatmanPWNS]

Probably gonna play it at least once. There comes a time where pressing X (or Square on PS3) gets very boring.

[onelifecrisis]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

The mode isn't being introduced for just one person in the whole world.
However, we're doing our best to make that mode feel unique to you, nonetheless.

Wrong account Mr./Mrs. BioWare employee?

It's conspiracy time

lol

[N7Infernox]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'll probably try it out once or twice.

[SenMizeri]

It'll be gutting if they take away tons of the rpg element and way more shooter ones to please the "CoD fans". Mass effect is my favourite game (Bioware my fave developer) because they bring out quality games no one else does. But with the current trend of copying the biggest game out there, I kinda fear they're just going to sell us out. Still looking forward to ME3 immensely though

Modifié par SenMizeri, 18 novembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[RiouHotaru]

Okay people, honestly, stop overusing "casual" and "CoD fan". Seriously, it's hilarious that these are practically buzzwords now. There's absolutely nothing wrong with an Action Mode as a choice. Several folks (myself included) have stated an intention to use Action Mode as a means of testing different class builds and weapon loadouts without having to go through the story to do so.

Repeat after me: "Having choices is NOT a bad thing."