109 réponses à ce sujet

[Abraham_uk]

The good news is that two pages in, this thread still hasn't decended into a flame war! YES!!!!

The bad news is that people have gone off topic.

The topic is "Where did people get the idea that Ashley is Religious?"

There is no implication that Ashley is religious. Only that she believes in a God who created the Universe. (Given the many Gods that are refeered to as God it could be any. May not even have a gender for that matter).

Ashley not only states her belief in a God of some sort (by using the often refuted intelligent design argument), but the implication is there that this is a personal God. Not so much in her words but in Kimberley's vocal emotings. A personal God is associated with religion (not always religious by the way) and a non personal God is associated with Deism (which is a philosophy that doesn't come under the banner of religion).

The fact I believe in a God, has little to do with the question. The question was about why people think Ashley is religious. A question I have just answered.

[PrinceLionheart]

alperez wrote...

I was brough up a catholic, joined the army and over the years i've gone from a catholic who believed in the tenets of catholicism to someone who abhors the teachings and practices of the catholic church, however that doesn't diminish a belief in god.

So organised religon is something i place no faith in but i still put faith in a higher power, now because i was raised a catholic for me that higher power is still in my own mind the same one that as a catholic i believed in.

For me this is pretty much how i pictured Ash, she believes in a god but not in the fundamentals of any particular religion, yet her faith is still strong and the belief in that god is still a fundamental aspect of her personality.

Unfortunately one anyone mentions god in any medium they fall into certain stereotypes so Ash becomes religious zealot because she's human and therefore must believe in whoever's playing the game own version of what belief they themselves have.

Funny thing is that its Shepard's line i always relate more to religious belief than anything Ash says because of my own predijuces "There are no atheists in a foxhole".

In other words, spirtualism. That's actually a path I've started to follow myself after coming to college. I was "raised in the church," but don't necessarily agree with every practice of the church.

I also agree that that's how I see Ashley's faith being. She merely states that she believes in God, and if in a relationship with Shep, mentions that she prayed after he "died."

I can't help but sense the irony though that Ash's haters call her a zealot when the depths of her faith is kept vague, while Thane uses his faith to obsolve him of any responsiblity of people he's killed.

[Xilizhra]

I can't help but sense the irony though that Ash's haters call her a zealot when the depths of her faith is kept vague, while Thane uses his faith to obsolve him of any responsiblity of people he's killed.

Actually, Thane's faith has nothing to do with it, it's just general drell culture. Also, Thane's faith isn't relatable to RL faiths that many posters may have had issues with.

[PrinceLionheart]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

BubbleSauce wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

She probably does have a religion. I like to presume it's either Christian, Catholic, Jew or Muslim.

Isn't catholicism just a form of christianty?

I am not christian/catholic so I don't know much about them. (Except for the basic beliefs)

It's kinda of tricky. When I took American religions my sophomore year of college, Catholicism was seperated from the other denominations of Christianity. Of course Protestanism directly branched off from Catholicism. The biggest, more noteworthy, difference between the two is that Catholicism puts biggest emphasis on needing Priests to forgive people of their earthly sins (while Protestanism more promotes that everyone has direct connections with God, not just Priests.)

Of course, i don't want to misrepsent or offend Catholics, so I'll probably stop there.

[PrinceLionheart]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can't help but sense the irony though that Ash's haters call her a zealot when the depths of her faith is kept vague, while Thane uses his faith to obsolve him of any responsiblity of people he's killed.

Actually, Thane's faith has nothing to do with it, it's just general drell culture. Also, Thane's faith isn't relatable to RL faiths that many posters may have had issues with.

Which still makes it a double standard though. Ashley's faith makes her a zealot while Thane's make him deep and mysterious.

[SenMizeri]

I loved talking with Ashley, and Shepards foxhole line is pretty much true. When faced with death and you've got nothing to defend or comfort you, you're going to start believing in a higher power or aftlerlife just to ease the thought of what death is going to be like,people wouildn't convert to a religion, but they'd have faith. But I couldn't prove that, because fortunately I've never been in a horrible situation like that, just know way too many people who started believing in something (no god exactly) before they died.
And besides Ashley is right, the Galaxy/universe is to big not to have a higher force out there, it's simply easier to call that higher force God. And to this "there are two types of gods theory", that's utter nonsense, if it was that simple God wouldn't exist, but it's not that simple. We never know until we die, so at least we got something to look forward to.

Team Agnostic!

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can't help but sense the irony though that Ash's haters call her a zealot when the depths of her faith is kept vague, while Thane uses his faith to obsolve him of any responsiblity of people he's killed.

Actually, Thane's faith has nothing to do with it, it's just general drell culture. Also, Thane's faith isn't relatable to RL faiths that many posters may have had issues with.

WHAT?!?  People are using Bioware games to grind their own axes?!?   NO WAY!   Are you sure?

[Pride Demon]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can't help but sense the irony though that Ash's haters call her a zealot when the depths of her faith is kept vague, while Thane uses his faith to obsolve him of any responsiblity of people he's killed.

Actually, Thane's faith has nothing to do with it, it's just general drell culture. Also, Thane's faith isn't relatable to RL faiths that many posters may have had issues with.

Indeed, the only thing I think could be remotely considered to be similar is Cathesian mind-body substance dualism, which is more a philosophical view than a religious view, (dualist religions exist in the realm of gnosticism, but he is probably not comparable to gnostics: that would imply he thinks the physical world is inheretly evil or anyway corrupt, which does not seem to be the case), and it still won't perfectly coincide...

I may be wrong though: this kind of philosophical dissertations, well, I'm a bit rusty on both notions and discussion...

Modifié par Pride Demon, 18 novembre 2011 - 09:15 .

[Funkcase]

CptData wrote...

D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

So after playing ME1 again.. I dont understand this that much

She says she believes in god. But she doesnt specify any religon

She says in regards to her dead father " He's probably still watching "
If you choose soul survivor for your shephard and you say the right dialogue in the beginning of the game she says something along the lines of " With all due respect, somebody was watching over you ".

Where did the Christian, Zealot, and Bible part come in??? Am I missing something?

I dont recall her praying or reciting religious quotes..

Hmm, I'm an atheist and never felt offended by Ashley's religious side.
However - believing in God prereqs some kind of religiosity. Doesn't matter if you're jew, christian or muslim or hindu - as soon as you think there's some God, you need a supporting religion. Or it doesn't work, since God does not exist in a purely scientific world.

In my eyes Ashley is a christian or a jew, but not hindu or muslim.

I like to believe life isn't pointless and that there is some light at the end of the tunnel, I believe whatever created everything in existence is God, whatever it may be. I am not a religious person, apart from attending my uncles wedding I've never been to church, prayed or read any religious texts. I think of Ashley like this, she believes in something, but she isn't sure what that something is.

Anyway, even if she was extremely religous there would be nothing wrong with it so long as she wasn't hurting anyone, it's pretty shallow to think less of someone becuase they want life to have a meaning and to not be some pointless existence, all of her friends and family that have died, I'm sure she likes to think there's a small chance she may meet them again one day.

Modifié par Funkcase, 18 novembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[Drone223]

I think OP it has to to do with sterotyping, When ever people see/hear something they think of the first thing in thier head an in this situation

Someone who believe's in god = Religious zealot, but she only says she believe's in god that's it she only give's a simple reason why she believe's in a god and goes no further after that, but people get carried away with her explination

[someone else]

...reapers are gods...guys in the derelict ship said so...

[DPSSOC]

I got the idea from her admission of prayer. Prayer is a ritualistic behaviour, rituals imply doctrine and dogma instructing on how/when you perform them, this would strongly imply she follows a religion.

[Silver77nz]

D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

She says she believes in god. But she doesnt specify any religon

She says in regards to her dead father " He's probably still watching "

I dont recall her praying or reciting religious quotes..

Well I believe it was a very good idea not to specify a religion for a video game character otherwise you go into the debate of my religion is better than your religion. The fact that Ashley even says she belives in God has people already assuming she is leaning towards one relgion. Which then brings out all the hate from people who have had bad experiences with religion. I think you can believe in something greater but have no clue what that something is.Society has to put labels on everything from I believe in God, to not believing in a God, to maybe there is a God, to I have no idea if there is a God. The whole point is Ashley was just stating a view she has towards her "God" and the after life. Maybe Ashley "God" doesn't fit into one specific religion. Maybe she has some mixed views on her own religion. When Ashley says the word "God" all this sudden hate comes from people being forced into going to church, or people trying to force conversion on someone, or religious people trying to tell individuals they are going to hell if they don't live out their lives according to their own religious view. Ashley clearly in the game never tries to force her views on you but people's own experiences tend to override or miss that she doesn't do that.

[Abraham_uk]

DPSSOC wrote...

I got the idea from her admission of prayer. Prayer is a ritualistic behaviour, rituals imply doctrine and dogma instructing on how/when you perform them, this would strongly imply she follows a religion.

This example is an answer to the question.
Try and stay on topic if you can.

I haven't seen that scene. But like I said, the way the actress emotes during the spoken scenes implies religious belief. Being religious doesn't always mean belonging to an institution. If there is prayers involved, that suggests that this is more than just a belief and that it is a way of life. Ritualistic behaviour is part of religious doctrine. This doesn't necessarily mean she is a Christian.

[BioWareM0d13]

Because some players overreact to statements made by characters, and completely blow them out of proportion.

So somehow Ashley saying she believes in life after death makes her some kind of religious zealot, even though most people who hardly ever step foot in a church, synagogue or mosque also share that belief. The vast majority of people alive today on the planet believe in life after death, a great many of whom aren't particularly religious. Even if Ashley subscribes to a particular faith, it doesn't necessarily make her a zealot. Most people who belong to the various Christian denominations are fairly secular. Orthodox Jews and Muslims are also in the minority.

Likewise Ashley saying she can't tell the aliens from the animals (a remark intended to be made about the keepers) makes her a racist according to some people, despite her actions and other statements made in game proving otherwise.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 19 novembre 2011 - 08:37 .

[atheelogos]

CptData wrote...

D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

So after playing ME1 again.. I dont understand this that much

She says she believes in god. But she doesnt specify any religon

She says in regards to her dead father " He's probably still watching "
If you choose soul survivor for your shephard and you say the right dialogue in the beginning of the game she says something along the lines of " With all due respect, somebody was watching over you ".

Where did the Christian, Zealot, and Bible part come in??? Am I missing something?

I dont recall her praying or reciting religious quotes..

However - believing in God prereqs some kind of religiosity.

No you don't. Back in the day I used to believe in God and I had no religion. In fact I disliked religion back then, but still had a vague kind of faith.

[Lord Zeel]

I hope new writers ditch the whole religious thing. Didn't make sense, in my humble opinion.


And they think Ashley is religious because 'heaven" is a Christian concept.

[BioWareM0d13]

Lord Zeel wrote...

I hope new writers ditch the whole religious thing. Didn't make sense, in my humble opinion.

Why did Ashley believing in life after death not make sense?

[Lord Zeel]

Han Shot First wrote...

Lord Zeel wrote...

I hope new writers ditch the whole religious thing. Didn't make sense, in my humble opinion.

Why did Ashley believing in life after death not make sense?

What? Are you kidding me? The whole reapers harvesting species every millinieum isn't a clue into the lack of a Celestial Father figure?

Honestly. Ashley's religion was the biggest plot hole in the Mass Effect Universe.

It wasn't just that she believes in a god(a diest) she's a bloody chrisitan (a theist). Why does theism persist in a sci-fi universe?

[BioWareM0d13]

What? Are you kidding me? The whole reapers harvesting species every millinieum isn't a clue into the lack of a Celestial Father figure?

Honestly. Ashley's religion was the biggest plot hole in the Mass Effect Universe.

It wasn't just that she believes in a god(a diest) she's a bloody chrisitan (a theist). Why does theism persist in a sci-fi universe?

I think you are projecting your own beliefs onto the Mass Effect universe, and than wondering why not every character in that univese shares them. The setting of the ME universe is the end of the 22nd Century. Religion would not have realistically died in just under two hundred years. In fact considering that for all of human history much of humanity has had a belief in life after death, that is unlikely to ever change. Whether or not God actually exists, there seems to be a psychological need for much of humanity to believe in something beyond an earthly existence.

Even proof of the Reapers existence would be unlikely to stamp out religion. While someone who was already an atheist may look at it as further proof that God doesn't exist, it would be unlikely to change the minds of most people who do believe in God or Gods. There have been several events throughout human history that would have seemed apocalyptic for the people experiencing them (like the Black Death, for instance) and those events didn't manage to deal a death blow to religion. In fact during times of desperation people often towards turn religion rather than away from it. (hence the old saw about there not being any atheists in foxholes) Besides, since we know the Reapers will be defeated in the end, a religious person would just look at that as a validation of their faith and as proof of prayers answered.

I think it is more realistic to have characters in the Mass Effect universe with a variety of beliefs, just as there are today. Some should be atheists, some agnostic, and others religious.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 19 novembre 2011 - 09:58 .

[Agamo45]

If you believe in God you are religious in some form, and Ashley is obviously professing one of the Abrahamic faiths. It's actually really simple.

[BioWareM0d13]

Agamo45 wrote...

If you believe in God you are religious in some form, and Ashley is obviously professing one of the Abrahamic faiths. It's actually really simple.

Religious yes, but I don't think Ashley is a bible-thumping zealot.  People who accuse of her of the latter are overreacting to the statement that she believes in life after death..

[Clover Rider]

 I believe in Buddha but I am no Buddhist.

[Goneaviking]

Lord Zeel wrote...

I hope new writers ditch the whole religious thing. Didn't make sense, in my humble opinion.

And they think Ashley is religious because 'heaven" is a Christian concept.

Heaven is also an Islamic concept, and although I'm no expert I've read that Judaism has a similar one. It would surprise me more to learn conclusively that none of non-Abrahamic faiths had a similar idea.

IMO a universe devoid of religion makes less sense, and is less interesting, than a universe where religion exists but doesn't run rampant.

Lord Zeel wrote...

What? Are you kidding me? The whole reapers harvesting species every millinieum isn't a clue into the lack of a Celestial Father figure?

Honestly. Ashley's religion was the biggest plot hole in the Mass Effect Universe.

It wasn't just that she believes in a god(a diest) she's a bloody chrisitan (a theist). Why does theism persist in a sci-fi universe?

Thousands of years of man's inhumanity to man. Countless civilisations lost to history and cities collapsed into the ocean. Technological innovation that redefines our notion of what is possible for every new generation. Religion is still here, and still going strong somehow I doubt that the news that the universe is a cold and dangerous place is going to cause religion to vanish overnight.

As for "Why does theism persist in a sci-fi universe?" Well, William Gibson has this to say:
"And novels set in imaginary futures are necessarily about the moment in
which they are written."

To me, it only makes sense that a game that attempts to be about making hard decisions and is full of gray morality would at some point reference subjects that are currently controversial, it also seems reasonable to give an idea of what factors inspire major characters to behave the way they do. It makes their behaviour seem less random and arbitrary.