109 réponses à ce sujet

[Goneaviking]

D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

So after playing ME1 again.. I dont understand this that much

She says she believes in god. But she doesnt specify any religon

She says in regards to her dead father " He's probably still watching "
If you choose soul survivor for your shephard and you say the right dialogue in the beginning of the game she says something along the lines of " With all due respect, somebody was watching over you ".

Where did the Christian, Zealot, and Bible part come in??? Am I missing something?

I dont recall her praying or reciting religious quotes..

She refers to religious beliefs in the game and people infer the rest.

No specifics are given as to her beliefs, and vague as they are described they could refer to a number of options. The Christian leanings are inferred, I don't know of any connection between Ashley and the bible so I'm assuming it's more inferrence. Her behaviour doesn't lend itself to interpretations that she's religiously intolerant or dogmatic, so I've always assumed that it had more to do with personal prejudice than anything else.

[Zaxares]

I imagine that Ashley is a follower of one of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity or Islam), due to her reference to "God". She's likely not a Muslim, however, (or at least, she's not a strict orthodox Muslim), since she was having a drink to commemorate the fall of Shanxi. (Although I suppose it could have been non-alcoholic wine...)

[Han Shot First]

I think people assume she's Christian because her voice actress is American, and the surname Williams can be either English or Welsh in origin. Protestant Christians are the majority in England, Wales, and the United States.
Considering her background, Ashley being a member of a Protestant denomination is more likely, but by no means certain. She doesn't say anything that indicates that she's a member of any particular faith.

But even if she's say, Anglican or Methodist, it doesn't necessarily mean she's a bible-thumper. In fact you could probably find people posting on this very board who consider themselves Anglican or Methodist, and while they believe in the basic tenets of those faiths, (existence of God, life after death, ect) they aren't spending their free time reading the bible and haven't been to Church in months or years

In short, Ashley doesn't say anything that indicates that she's a zealot.

[Lukertin]

Zaxares wrote...
I imagine that Ashley is a follower of one of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity or Islam), due to her reference to "God". She's likely not a Muslim, however, (or at least, she's not a strict orthodox Muslim), since she was having a drink to commemorate the fall of Shanxi. (Although I suppose it could have been non-alcoholic wine...)

Few Muslims actually adhere to that non-alcoholic thing, especially in this day and age. Do you actually think that 500 years in the future, anyone would actually give a crap about that?

Han Shot First wrote...
I think people assume she's Christian because her voice actress is American, and the surname Williams can be either English or Welsh in origin. Protestant Christians are the majority in England, Wales, and the United States. 

Make all the assumptions you want about a video game character of clearly Hispanic ethnicity with a Anglical surname who is voiced by an African American.

Modifié par Lukertin, 20 novembre 2011 - 01:30 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

It's probably because people are used to the way media so often falls back on cheap, cardboard characterization, exagerating a certain aspect of a character to be that character's "identifier". So if a character mentions God, then that character's identifier is "religious". So, because Ashley mentions God, she must be a highly religious person. If she wasn't, in Hollywood media at least, she wouldn't have mentioned God.

I'd like to think that Bioware is capable of a bit more nuance than that... then again, I've played DA2...


(PS, the ethnicity of a character's voice actor is 100% meaningless.)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 novembre 2011 - 01:33 .

[Han Shot First]

Lukertin wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
I think people assume she's Christian because her voice actress is American, and the surname Williams can be either English or Welsh in origin. Protestant Christians are the majority in England, Wales, and the United States. 

Make all the assumptions you want about a video game character of clearly Hispanic ethnicity with a Anglical surname who is voiced by an African American.

I'm not making any assumptions about the character. I was just pointing out that most people probably assume she's Christian because the character sounds like an American and has an English or Welsh surname, and that Protestants make up the majority in the US and UK. (and Canada as well, if Ashley is Canadian)

As for her 'clearly Hispanic ethnicity' it seems you may be making an assumption unless her father shacks up with a Latina in the comics. Ashley doesn't have a Spanish first or last name, and while she has a tan complection, Hispanics are far from being the only people who are naturally tan. She could just as easily be partially Italian, Greek, Arabic, Israeli, ect., as Spanish or Hispanic.

[Lukertin]

Han Shot First wrote...
As for her 'clearly Hispanic ethnicity' it seems you may be making an assumption unless her father shacks up with a Latina in the comics. Ashley doesn't have a Spanish first or last name, and while she has a tan complection, Hispanics are far from being the only people who are naturally tan. She could just as easily be partially Italian, Greek, Arabic, Israeli, ect., as Spanish or Hispanic.

I'm not making an assumption. Bioware has confirmed that Ashley Williams is of predominantly Hispanic descent.

[DPSSOC]

Lord Zeel wrote...
What? Are you kidding me? The whole reapers harvesting species every millinieum isn't a clue into the lack of a Celestial Father figure?

Combined with the presence of a Saviour (Shepard).  People have been dealing with monumental disasters without the overt expression of divine assistance for ages now, I don't see it suddenly becoming a problem.

Lord Zeel wrote...
It wasn't just that she believes in a god(a diest) she's a bloody chrisitan (a theist). Why does theism persist in a sci-fi universe?

Why wouldn't it?  The things that make religion attractive to people are still going to be around in 200 years, 2 thousand years, 2 million years even.  Structure, community, belief in a greater meaning to existence, these things aren't going anywhere and science is ill equipped to provide them.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Plus Mass Effect takes place less than 200 years into the future, which is barely more than 10% of the age of Christianity...

(And no, don't bother to "correct" my math on that, I'm being very specific in my wording.)

[Killjoy Cutter]

The Greeks had an area of the underworld/afterlife reserved for tormenting the most wicked of the wicked. In fact, the popular Christian imagery of Hell comes from that Greek belief.

[Mr.Pink]

I'm an Aethiest, and I believe people can believe what they want to believe. I really hate religion though, and it's not the central story about God and Jesus, or Allah, or whoever, depending on the religion, it's the stupid moral stuff that comes with it. Catholics, for example, the Pope went to Africa, the continent most ravaged by AIDS, and told them they can't use condoms. Ashley never shows anything close to this, she only believe God created everything, and controls stuff here and there. That I COMPLETELY tolerate, because it's only fair, and I have nothing against religious followers. Religion, however, is one of those topic where the arguments go like this.
"Prove God is real."
"Prove god isn't real."
The main reason I follow Aethiesm is because I think the main story to all religions seems like total bull, and the big bang theory has science to support it.

[hawat333]

CptData wrote...

Hmm, I'm an atheist and never felt offended by Ashley's religious side.

Me too. And a lof of us, I guess. But usually people who feel offended for whatever justified or unjustified (mostly the latter) reasons are much louder than people who don't. It's just the way human beings work. Especially in a crowd.
But anyways, OP states a very valid points. She just says she believes in some kind of afterlife and in god. But there's no telling if she believes in any of those fancy pamphlets that are thrown at us for two-three thousands of years.

[Celtic Latino]

Mesina2 wrote...

CptData wrote...

Hmm, I'm an atheist and never felt offended by Ashley's religious side.

And why would anyone be offended by someone believing in God?

Because its in-vogue to hate people who are religious or even believe in God these days. Just go on the majority of forums (including religious forums) and you see flamers every day. With some people all you have to do is utter the word "God" or say you believe in some sort of higher power and you're subject to ridicule almost immediately. Sad but true. 

Personally I think its rather stupid that people automatically say Ashley is a religious fanatic JUST BECAUSE she says she believes in God. Does she give out pamphlets or shove it down your throat? No. Does she distrust aliens because of her beliefs? No. But of course people take her out of context because they hear the word 'God'. People are funny like that 

[CptData]

Celtic Latino wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

CptData wrote...

Hmm, I'm an atheist and never felt offended by Ashley's religious side.

And why would anyone be offended by someone believing in God?

Because its in-vogue to hate people who are religious or even believe in God these days. Just go on the majority of forums (including religious forums) and you see flamers every day. With some people all you have to do is utter the word "God" or say you believe in some sort of higher power and you're subject to ridicule almost immediately. Sad but true. 

Not really. It just seems to be stuff against muslims mostly.
I only dislike one kind of religious people - the fanatics of ANY given religion. Mostly because they believe they have to "convert" others to their religion by either agressively gaining influence in a society (Creationists anyone?) or by violence. Both kind of fanatics disturb peace - they should have no place in any society.

Besides those guys I have no problem with religions. My fiancee is, as I said before, christian. My ex GF was jew. I have no problems with those religions, as long as I can keep my own belief.

Ashley is pretty much like my fiancee when it comes to faith: she believes in God without becoming a fanatic. She says there must be something that keeps things together and I'm okay with it. I don't believe in -any- god, because it simply doesn't work for me. At least the "creator god" does not work in my imagination with exception of the "pre-big-bang-god" who started the entire universe and wasn't seen since then. Since we'll never be able to find out how the situation was in the very first moment of the universe (we can come close, but not at that point or even "before"), I can put "god" here if I like - without actively believing in that theory.

Personally I think its rather stupid that people automatically say Ashley is a religious fanatic JUST BECAUSE she says she believes in God. Does she give out pamphlets or shove it down your throat? No. Does she distrust aliens because of her beliefs? No. But of course people take her out of context because they hear the word 'God'. People are funny like that 

Exactly. It's not that she's throwing out psalms all day or telling Shepard aliens are ungodly or something. Actually, if we would face aliens today half of the religious ppl would think the fiend set free his demons. Ashley doesn't act like that. I'm not even sure if she's really religious by today's standards. You can believe in some kind of higher existence without actively supporting a religion (but it's far, far easier with one, that's why I said earlier you need a religion to support a god / God).

[Shad Croly]

To me, it doesn't really matter what the specifics are of Ashley's religion.

All that matters is her putting her God-given boomstick to good use.

[Shermos]

Mesina2 wrote...

^She pretty much says that entire universe being create out of nothing by accident is ridiculous for her and believes some greater force did it which is in her case God( Christian, Jewish, Muslim, doesn't matter).

Chaos theory should prove to her that complexity can arise without intervention from a god. I'd like to think that by the 22nd century, most humans have woken up to this fact.

On topic though, I don't think Ash is specifically religious but she definitely leans toward being Christian or Jewish.

Modifié par Shermos, 24 novembre 2011 - 02:22 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Can? Sure. Did? Chaos theory doesn't answer that.

[Shermos]

It doesn't need to. The fact that it can makes the whole idea of a God pretty irrelevant and certainly unnecessary.

Modifié par Shermos, 24 novembre 2011 - 02:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, that's not the sort of logical integrity they teach in engineering colleges, that's for sure.

Maybe it's a liberal arts thing.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 novembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[Shermos]

Actually, it's more of a highler level mathematics and physics thing. You can always trust an engineer to assume there has to be a designer lol. The simple fact is, God is not needed for complexity to arise from simplicity or "nothing". Combine that with the fact that we have no evidence for the existence of a supreme being and it's not much of a logical leap to conclude that there probably is no God.

Modifié par Shermos, 24 novembre 2011 - 03:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Simply because complexity as an abstract doesn't require a designer doesn't mean that ANY complexity doesn't require a designer. 'Complexity' is an overarching concept that includes both complexity without design, and complexity with design.

Chaos theory only supports that things can be complex without deliberate design. It only offers one half of the spectrum... and does nothing to help determine which is which.

I have no need to see the workmen at work to understand that a road network is a complex system created by design, whereas a forest ecosystem can be a complex system allowed to form in chaos.

Ascribing chaos theory to the disproof of god is a fallacy. It remains, at it's heart, a leap of logic, not the logical conclusion.

[MegaBadExample]

Shad Croly wrote...

To me, it doesn't really matter what the specifics are of Ashley's religion.

All that matters is her putting her God-given boomstick to good use.

This.

To me, it doesn't seem like she's a heavy believer anyway. With the cursing, the killing, the sex before marriage. Ash just lives.

I believe in god. But hell, I never attend church and probably never will. And I won't change my lifestyle because of it. It's... just nice to think that there is somthing... out there when everything goes down the sh*thole, and I think Ash kinda thinks the same. But she doesn't force her religion on anyone, she keeps it to herself. So what does it matter? Ash isn't perfect. She's got her flaws, more than most other characters. And that's what makes her seem real.

[CptData]

Shermos wrote...

Actually, it's more of a highler level mathematics and physics thing. You can always trust an engineer to assume there has to be a designer lol. The simple fact is, God is not needed for complexity to arise from simplicity or "nothing". Combine that with the fact that we have no evidence for the existence of a supreme being and it's not much of a logical leap to conclude that there probably is no God.

It doesn't matter how complex something is at its current stage - you can reduce it to very simple parts. In case of the Universe most (if not any) visible and non-visible matter is just "condensed" energy. Not more, not less. The universe itself follows very few laws which are foundation of every higher laws. If we know all those laws and if we had a computer with necessary processing speed we could write a simulation and this simulation will be able to create an universe similar to our own.

I don't think there's much space for a god -inside- that universe, but no one can say there's no god outside who started our own universe - as a simulation.