18 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

It's an interesting subject I've recently considered.

Seeing as DAII seems more fate-driven than Origins which is more chance-driven. I'm wondering if Leliana was right in the ending scene and it is all in the "Maker's" hands.

How the statue fits in. Well Laidlaw and Gaider confirmed that her prophecies are true, albeit vaugue details of future.

She'll say in Origins she says that she'll remain in her stone form until the Maker "returns to light their fires". And in Witch Hunt, which happens between Act 1 and 2 of DAII, she gives her final words and apparently fades away. Implying that the Maker has returned.

And Sandal's prophecy hints that in the past everyone could do magic and will again. And the whole "when he rises, everyone will see" could be a Maker reference.

And true enough to  Zinovia's words, the world was symbolically set on fire by the Mage-Templar War

I also am wondering if the Maker could be connected to the Idol. Seeing as Witch Hunt happens after Act 1, after the Idol is found and taken from the deep roads.

So perhaps. Maker returns => War happens that leads to dramatic social reform where magic is concerned => All children born afterward are mages. => And Mankind possibly does something so nasty and the Maker turns away from mankind again for another thousand years. lol

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Man, can you imagine a world where EVERYONE is a mage? That would be just... insane.

[Gervaise]

The writers are constantly putting out little titbits to encourage you but who knows where they will lead. Morrigan says that her eluvian leads somewhere that "is not this world and not the Fade". This would make the Chant of Light apparently wrong since it states there is only one world and in any case, where or what is this place she speaks of? Is it in fact the Maker's new hideout since he quit the Golden City or some other dimension completely? Could it be the origin of both humans and kossith since the codex for both say that they first appeared in the region of Par Vollen?

Likewise she says that the real enemy is Flemeth and that she is going to bring about some great change in the world. After reviving Flemeth with the amulet she heads off to meet with someone, having warned Hawke that the world stands on the edge of great change. So does Flemeth bring it about, or someone else that is in league with Flemeth, or is it that she merely is able to see into the future and Morrigan also inherited her gift but misunderstood what she saw?

The problem with prophesies is that unless someone actually states that such and such will happen within a certain time period, it could relate to any time in the future. The Guardian of the Ashes said that he had to remain in post until the Tevinter Imperium was no more. Then he and the ashes disappear, along with the Warden and Hawke. If Zinovia believes she will remain a statue until the Maker's return, then until such time as the statue animates or disintigrates, I assume this has not yet occurred, unless you are correct and it is simply her soul that has gained release.

The ending to both Origins and DA2 left us with many unanswered questions. I do hope DA3 solves at least some of them.

[WhiteKnyght]

Well the Qunari/Kossith came to Par Vollen from a land to the East of Thedas. Not another dimension.

As for The Maker. I think he's the creator of humans. But not the other races. The Elves, Dwarves, etc likely have their own respective deities.

Also Zinovia didn't say her statue would change or be destroyed though. She basically said she would be trapped until The Maker returns. And being able to leave the statue spiritually is a form of release.

Her words when the veil tears happened are kind of odd too. "The Prison is breached." and "I see the encroaching darkness". And seeing as she had enough time to give out some information before she went silent--perhaps the Maker was imprisoned like the other gods. And he escaped through those tears.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Well the Qunari/Kossith came to Par Vollen from a land to the East of Thedas. Not another dimension.

As for The Maker. I think he's the creator of humans. But not the other races. The Elves, Dwarves, etc likely have their own respective deities.

Also Zinovia didn't say her statue would change or be destroyed though. She basically said she would be trapped until The Maker returns. And being able to leave the statue spiritually is a form of release.

Her words when the veil tears happened are kind of odd too. "The Prison is breached." and "I see the encroaching darkness". And seeing as she had enough time to give out some information before she went silent--perhaps the Maker was imprisoned like the other gods. And he escaped through those tears.

Or, maybe not the Maker, but the Old Gods.  Since they are slumbering supposedly, maybe their souls are trapped, and the Archdemons get corrupted, it's not the Old God's soul but the collective of the Darkspawn allowing the "comatose" body of the Old God to come back.. So, maybe Flemeth and Morrigan are wrong... Maybe the Old God Baby is not a uncorrupted soul of an Old God, but in fact the collective corruption of the Darkspawn made flesh.

Furthermore, there is Flemeth herself.  When asked how she learned to be a dragon, she says "Maybe I am a dragon." and I think that's more telling than it seems.   Sure, she's cryptic, she makes jokes, but... all her crypticism and her jokes, still have a deeper meaning...  So, I think maybe Flemeth might be actually one of the Old Gods that did NOT get imprisoned and she is working to free her fellow Old Gods. In this case, maybe the ritual is correct, and the OGB will be her old friend restored and uncorrupted.

[LinksOcarina]

If that is the case then, why did Flemeth want to preserve the spirit of the old god in Morrigans baby, since it was stated that it was all her idea from the start as to why the ritual took place.

[WhiteKnyght]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Well the Qunari/Kossith came to Par Vollen from a land to the East of Thedas. Not another dimension.

As for The Maker. I think he's the creator of humans. But not the other races. The Elves, Dwarves, etc likely have their own respective deities.

Also Zinovia didn't say her statue would change or be destroyed though. She basically said she would be trapped until The Maker returns. And being able to leave the statue spiritually is a form of release.

Her words when the veil tears happened are kind of odd too. "The Prison is breached." and "I see the encroaching darkness". And seeing as she had enough time to give out some information before she went silent--perhaps the Maker was imprisoned like the other gods. And he escaped through those tears.

Or, maybe not the Maker, but the Old Gods.  Since they are slumbering supposedly, maybe their souls are trapped, and the Archdemons get corrupted, it's not the Old God's soul but the collective of the Darkspawn allowing the "comatose" body of the Old God to come back.. So, maybe Flemeth and Morrigan are wrong... Maybe the Old God Baby is not a uncorrupted soul of an Old God, but in fact the collective corruption of the Darkspawn made flesh.

Furthermore, there is Flemeth herself.  When asked how she learned to be a dragon, she says "Maybe I am a dragon." and I think that's more telling than it seems.   Sure, she's cryptic, she makes jokes, but... all her crypticism and her jokes, still have a deeper meaning...  So, I think maybe Flemeth might be actually one of the Old Gods that did NOT get imprisoned and she is working to free her fellow Old Gods. In this case, maybe the ritual is correct, and the OGB will be her old friend restored and uncorrupted.

After playing Legacy, it's obvious that the old gods aren't actually being corrupted, but that they tricked the magisters as part of a plan to free themselves.

Old gods are imprisoned => Old gods speak to man and gather followers => Old gods trick followers into entering a place that would expose them to something that would horribly mutate them => Old gods call to the spawns of the followers and control them like puppets.

Even Flemeth refers to the Archdemons as "The core of the taint". If the old gods weren't the source, wouldn't an archdemon just be a very large dragon ghoul?

So recycling Urthemiel's soul into an OGB is likely a very bad idea. After all, why would the devs call it "The Dark Ritual" if it does nothing but good?

According to Morrigan it....

... 'preserves' the spirit of a powerful and ancient being that is allegedly only evil because of the corruption.

... allows the Archdemon to be slain without sacficing yourself or Alistair/Loghain.

No obvious downsides except that it's technically blood magic.

Obvious answer, the child is likely evil incarnate.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 19 novembre 2011 - 07:32 .

[SkittlesKat96]

It would be interesting if the OGB ended up being evil and the Dark Ritual being a bad idea (and yes I know its apparently non-canon but this is assuming they do make it canon)

Cause there are a lot of risky choices (namely the Dark Ritual and the Architect) that people make in DA without thinking of the possible consequences, a lot of people think Morrigan is trustable and that her idea of the OGB is good but who knows. We're kind of at the writers mercy to see what happens with our choices in future

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:49 .

[Macropodmum]

I think that Morrigan is being manipulated by Flemeth, although whether it is for good or not is anyone's guess. I have a hard time believing that either Morrigan or Flemeth are evil whatever the case is...

[Gervaise]

I always thought the Dark Ritual was likely a bad idea. However, I could justify taking it from a Grey Warden perspective that you do what it takes to stop the Blight and since Grey Wardens are required to slay the archdemon and at that time we were limited to 3 (or possibly 4 if you spare Loghain) in the whole of Ferelden, the odds are that they might all be killed before striking the killing blow. However, someone else could do this and the Blight would still end because of the soul jumping to the baby.

Nevertheless, at least two of my wardens refused. The first was a Dalish elf who didn't want to restore any old gods (since they supported the Magisters who destroyed Arlathan) and it sounded to him like the soul jump would be destroying the soul the baby originally possessed (or corrupting it). Plus he had developed a strong dislike for Morrigan (for personal reasons) and so did not want to give her something that she obviously wanted that badly. The other warden had spared Loghain and since he voluntarily offered to do the ritual if anything happened to Riordan, and begged my warden not to make him do the dark ritual, he decided that avoiding the creation of an old god in baby form was preferable and worth the risk that all the wardens might die before striking the killing blow.

Let's not beat about the bush, even Alistair gets the significance of performing the ritual and calls the offspring his demon baby if he does the deed. Morrigan might call the baby "an innocent" but most people regard Damien in the Omen as an innocent, only the viewer knows different, plus any of the characters that get killed off because of the threat they pose to him.

Incidentally the reason I linked humans and Kossith was that according to the elves, the humans suddenly appeared out of nowhere on Par Vollen and whilst the Qun claim to have come across the sea, their landfall was Par Vollen and so their origin could have been an alternate dimension, just as the humans could have been. Then again, may be Par Vollen has no signficance whatsoever and it was just coincidence that the writers had both races starting their conquest from this point.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

LinksOcarina wrote...

If that is the case then, why did Flemeth want to preserve the spirit of the old god in Morrigans baby, since it was stated that it was all her idea from the start as to why the ritual took place.

Well, maybe it's not the case and the OGB is her old friend restored, or maybe she's pissed at the Maker and wants to HELP the Darkspawn destroy us by giving them the powers of an Old God.

We really don't know her motives.  She could be friendly and genuintely care about mortals, or she could be a vengeful being with all the time in the world on her hands subtly guiding us to our own demise.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 20 novembre 2011 - 03:27 .

[LinksOcarina]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

Well, maybe it's not the case and the OGB is her old friend restored, or maybe she's pissed at the Maker and wants to HELP the Darkspawn destroy us by giving them the powers of an Old God.

We really don't know her motives.  She could be friendly and genuintely care about mortals, or she could be a vengeful being with all the time in the world on her hands subtly guiding us to our own demise.

But if she wanted to help the Darkspawn, why did she save the Warden and Alistar? Wouldn't the blight just wipe out Ferelden without them then, since Ridoran was doomed to fail regardless?

I think she is more beneficial than she appears to be, but I also think she is operating on ulterior motives that will benefit her and her kind...if that makes sense.

[Gervaise]

I think she wants to restore the old god to his former glory. Whether this is for the old god's sake or to help in some scheme of Flemeth's is anybody's guess. If she is pissed at the Maker then that would be all the more reason to help the old god to avoid being destroyed as that would definitely be contrary to the Maker's wishes I would have thought. She wouldn't want to help the darkspawn because they just corrupt everything and there is not much point having power over a rotten corrupted world and a bunch of mindless corrupted creatures. Intelligent darkspawn might be a different matter but we shall have to wait and see if she has any connection to them.

[jamesp81]

My own theorycrafting goes something like this:

Flemeth is, indeed, an old god. And the old gods, collectively may not be as evil as previously thought. The elves believe there is a pantheon of evil gods they call the forgotten ones. It might be the forgotten ones that will be painted as the ultimate antagonist. The elves also believe the creators are locked away from the world, which sounds deceptively like how the Maker turned his back on thedas. Maybe he didn't; maybe he got locked away like the others.

It might be that the old gods are too few in number now to oppose the forgotten ones. Flemeth's plan could very well be to undo what the forgotten ones did to seal off the Maker from mankind.

By the way, there are two old gods left; Lusacan, the Dragon of Night and Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery. The second one is interesting. What exactly is a Dragon of Mystery? And if you spoke to it, might it not converse in riddles? That does indeed sound like someone we already know.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

LinksOcarina wrote...

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

Well, maybe it's not the case and the OGB is her old friend restored, or maybe she's pissed at the Maker and wants to HELP the Darkspawn destroy us by giving them the powers of an Old God.

We really don't know her motives.  She could be friendly and genuintely care about mortals, or she could be a vengeful being with all the time in the world on her hands subtly guiding us to our own demise.

But if she wanted to help the Darkspawn, why did she save the Warden and Alistar? Wouldn't the blight just wipe out Ferelden without them then, since Ridoran was doomed to fail regardless?

I think she is more beneficial than she appears to be, but I also think she is operating on ulterior motives that will benefit her and her kind...if that makes sense.

OH yeah I agree with you, but to answer how she could be working for the darkspawn (not that I really think she is) she needed the Wardens to sleep with Morrigan to create a "wolf in sheep's clothing" in the OGB, so she helped, got them to trust Morrigan, trust the ritual, and ultimately spell their doom.  Sure, they stop THIS Blight in record time... but the next one led by the OGB? It will be the last and the decisive win of the Darkspawn... Like I said, I don't really beleive this theory, just saying it would explain if she was working for the Darkspawn why she'd save Warden and Alistair.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

jamesp81 wrote...

 The second one is interesting. What exactly is a Dragon of Mystery? And if you spoke to it, might it not converse in riddles? That does indeed sound like someone we already know.

Oh, that is a damn good point.

[WhiteKnyght]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

 The second one is interesting. What exactly is a Dragon of Mystery? And if you spoke to it, might it not converse in riddles? That does indeed sound like someone we already know.

Oh, that is a damn good point.

Perhaps a Dragon of Mystery is just a dragon that they don't know much about.

Perhaps it's one that didn't whisper to man like the others, and thus they view it with curiosity.

Mystery and being cryptic and jokey aren't always the same thing.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 25 novembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well Dumat wasn't supposed to be entirely "silent." Toth isn't the only dragon that has fire. I don't think we'd need to be literal when considering the Dragon of Mystery .

[WhiteKnyght]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well Dumat wasn't supposed to be entirely "silent." Toth isn't the only dragon that has fire. I don't think we'd need to be literal when considering the Dragon of Mystery .

And Urthemiel, from my POV, was an ugly beast.