43 réponses à ce sujet

[Goph]

To completely change the subject:

I finally finished my ToB game, and I've uninstalled and reinstalled with an eye towards using some of the "bg2tweaks" from G3 this time around. In the past, I've only used the fixes. My question is about the 'Un-Nerfed' THAC0, Sorcerer, Mage, etc. tables. The Readme links to a comparison of the various tables, but with G3 down I can't actually look at them. Can anybody give me a general idea of the differences between the default and tweaked tables? Or, even better, a functioning link?

More on topic, I was thinking that if I do decide to drop Valygar maybe I'll pick up Jaheira to keep the party at five. I'm leaning towards hanging on to Valygar at this point, and just running with two rangers, but I haven't played Jaheira since my first run, and I didn't keep her all the way through even then, so it was just a thought. But would she really make a good melee substitute . . ?

[Grond0]

I think the THAC0 adjustments are just to remove the level cap at around level 20, i.e. a fighter's THAC0 would continue going down at 1 per level.

The only spell adjustment table I've really looked at was for bards where I remember the change allowed them to get up to level 8 spells. I assume the same logic is applied as for THAC0, i.e. spells keep increasing as you go up in levels, rather than being capped around level 20.

[ussnorway]

Valygar gets stealth and fighting prowess... his stats/abilities are geared towards offensive.

Jaheira gets spells... with a bit of time put into picking them she makes an excellent healer or tank but despite being part fighter she still can't fight her way out of a paper bag.

p.s. I'm not saying she is worthless... 'Harper's Call' & 'Insect Plague' alone will earn her a place in many groups.

[Carinna]

Here is what it says in the readme about THAC0:
Un-Nerfed THAC0 Table
A spin-off of the deprecated Un-Nerfed THAC0 Table, Saving Throws, Grand-Mastery, and Arcane, Divine Spell Progression component, this allows the player to select the un-nerfed THAC0 table individually. THAC0 can now progress until it reaches zero instead of no longer improving once you hit level 20.

Unfortunately, the spell progression tweak hotlinks to G3.  However, you have a choice between whatever effect that gives and pen-and-paper rules (I usually select pnp so don't know the effect of the other).

Modifié par Carinna, 24 novembre 2011 - 02:30 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Goph wrote...
I know Aerie's probably the weakest cleric,

Aerie takes a lot of work on your part to function properly (buffing, buffing, auto-pause after casting...), but if you're willing to invest that, the term "weak" doesn't quite describe her. Yes, she has less divine power than Anomen or Viconia, but she is the fastest divine caster you will ever find (if you use triggers, Vecna etc), she has the best defense of any divine caster (if you use arcane buffs) and while she's not healing your careless and unprotected front-line fighters, she's frying your enemies with the largest spell selection of any NPC.

ussnorway wrote...
Valygar gets stealth and fighting prowess... his stats/abilities are geared towards offensive.

Of the vanilla warriors, he is the one with the best defensive potential, having access to both low-level druid spells (Armor of Faith) and his family armor. Of course, this is nothing against Jaheira.

Jaheira gets spells... with a bit of time put into picking them she makes an excellent healer or tank but despite being part fighter she still can't fight her way out of a paper bag.

Have you ever used Jaheira with Spectral Brand +5 (or the Club of Detonations +5), Belm +2, Improved Haste, Critical Strike and a belt of strength? Or with Ixil's Spike +6, a belt of strength and Greater Whirlwind? Or with Harm + Critical Strike?
Jaheira can put her enemies down, believe you me.

[ussnorway]

I like Jaheira as well but if you just send her into battle without taking the time to buff-up then she won't last long at all & no offence to Goph but I read that as being his problem with Valygar as well... Anomen is more suited to this type of battle than Jaheria & his divine power is considerably stronger… the drawback of course is that the guy is a complete prate.

For my pick (assuming you don’t need divine spells) I’d add Haer'Dalis… yes you still need to buff-up to get the best out of him but his best is actually worth taking the time. Pure melee damage output from Haer'Dalis will rival Keldorn, Valygar & Yoshimo... only Mazzy has better staying power & he fits into any group that also carries Aerie, assuming you don’t mind him making moves on her.

At the end of the day you should play with the NPC you enjoy because they all have good & Bad issues that effect what strategy you need to use in order to get the best from them... if you like them, then its worth investing that time!

Modifié par ussnorway, 25 novembre 2011 - 03:48 .

[Goph]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Aerie takes a lot of work on your part to function properly (buffing, buffing, auto-pause after casting...), but if you're willing to invest that, the term "weak" doesn't quite describe her. Yes, she has less divine power than Anomen or Viconia, but she is the fastest divine caster you will ever find (if you use triggers, Vecna etc), she has the best defense of any divine caster (if you use arcane buffs) and while she's not healing your careless and unprotected front-line fighters, she's frying your enemies with the largest spell selection of any NPC.

Right, I meant the weakest at being cleric-y, not the weakest character with cleric abilities.  Poor phrasing on my part perhaps.

I still haven't really made a decision about how to run my current game, but I haven't left Irenicus' dungeon yet so I've still got a little time.  I think uss_norway is right that I probably wouldn't consistently buff Jaheira appropriately, nor do I do this for Valygar.  It's mostly because I get frustrated by how short the buff durations are, for the most part.  I'll use stoneskin and resist/remove fear a lot, but I usually don't rest until people start getting fatigued, so the durations of the other buffs make them less helpful unless I'm preparing for a specific fight where I'm anticipating trouble . . .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ussnorway wrote...
I like Jaheira as well but if you just send her into battle without taking the time to buff-up then she won't last long at all [...] Anomen is more suited to this type of battle than Jaheria & his divine power is considerably stronger…

IMO the warrior HLAs are a lot more useful in an unbuffed situation than a high cleric level. And don't forget that Ironskins (which she, not he has access to, is one hell of a life-saver (even if it takes 6 seconds to prepare in some versions of the game).
By the way, it was you who called her a tank. I only corrected you in the assessment that Valygar is better at damage dealing.

Pure melee damage output from Haer'Dalis will rival Keldorn, Valygar

Not really. I'm not saying he's not useful, but in order to get good APR, he needs to use weapons +2, while the warriors can swing weapons +5 (or +6) with 10 attacks per round.
He is capable of putting down enemies quickly, but the numbers still favor Valygar and Keldorn.
His defense is pretty much impenetrable of course.

only Mazzy has better staying power

Can you explain this one to me?

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 25 novembre 2011 - 08:09 .

[ussnorway]

I consider HLAs to be buffs but I agree with you that her Ironskins are very useful, of course she has to wait a while to get them and longer to get the HLA.

Haer'Dalis is a blade and can use most any weapon you are likely to find as the game progresses (except composite longbow) and will get access to the ‘Use any item’ ability by the time those +4/6 weapons come around… Yes he gets an extra pip in short & long swords but why would you want to restrict him to +2 weapons?

The Mazzy issue has two parts;
1. As a fighter class she has great hit points (Haer'Dalis weakness) & can wear heavy armour (Valygar weakness).
2. Mazzy is quintessentially a paladin when it comes to fear tests and her corresponding ‘Remove Fear’ makes her my party anchor when fighting dragons and such.

Off topic but a lot of people look at her pips and decide they don’t want a Halfling short sword fighter… fair enough but if you go get her early then she only has one point in short swords and you effectively have an open slate.

It’s worth noting with Valygar that I personally consider his high immunity to the elements makes up for his low armour.

[Alesia_BH]

Goph wrote...

 ...his (Valygar's) armor limitations seem to be getting him killed a lot 

If you'd like some tips on keeping a Stalker alive, you can find some in the No Reload Challenge Thread. This was a Stalker solo in a SCSII/Ascension install. She survived up to Tougher Abazigal. The posts cover the Copper Coronet through Abazigal's Lair.

I'll note here that throughout most of her adventure, my Stalker, Ashoka, was wearing a robe that provided no AC benefits and had elemental resistances which were less impressive than those on Valygar's Armor. Her stats were comprable to Valygar's but, again, ultimately less impressive. Armor and exceptional base stats receive a lot of attention in warrior builds, but they can be very nearly irrelevant depending on how the character is played.

http://social.biowar...dex/3120942/105


Enjoy your ranger run!

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 25 novembre 2011 - 09:58 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ussnorway wrote...
I consider HLAs to be buffs

Sure they are - but putting up a Hardiness can be done in the midst of combat. Buffing a cleric during combat requires you to either get lucky with Sanctuary (or use potions) or retreat for the moment to return buffed.

but I agree with you that her Ironskins are very useful, of course she has to wait a while to get them

I'm not at my own PC right now so I can't check, but IIRC she pretty much starts the game with level 5 spells.

Haer'Dalis is a blade and can use most any weapon you are likely to find as the game progresses (except composite longbow) and will get access to the ‘Use any item’ ability by the time those +4/6 weapons come around… Yes he gets an extra pip in short & long swords but why would you want to restrict him to +2 weapons?

Using a normal weapon + Belm + Offensive Spin puts him at 4 APR.
He also gets a bonus damage of ~5 points per hit.
4 x 5 = 20
That means that if the others manage to deal >20* points of damage per hit, they deal more damage than him. Strength bonus of ~10, enchantment bonus of ~5, extra damage through whatever... It doesn't take much to meet that requirement.

The Mazzy issue has two parts;
1. As a fighter class she has great hit points (Haer'Dalis weakness) & can wear heavy armour (Valygar weakness).

Valygar has better physical resistance and a much easier time upping his other resistances. Sure his AC isn't the best, but if he takes (almost) no damage from being hit, he still wins out in the end. (unless he's hit with a Dispel Magic of course)
Haer'Dalis is pretty much invulnerable. Comparing his HP with hers is pointless.

2. Mazzy is quintessentially a paladin when it comes to fear tests and her corresponding ‘Remove Fear’ makes her my party anchor when fighting dragons and such.

If that's what you want, Haer'Dalis could do that too (not that'd be smart in a group with a cleric, but still).

Off topic but a lot of people look at her pips and decide they don’t want a Halfling short sword fighter… fair enough but if you go get her early then she only has one point in short swords and you effectively have an open slate.

I like her. I really do. It's just that fighters like her are rather limited. Bow users even more so (since arrow damage is ridiculous).

Edit:
* Actually, since one of the 4 attacks is with Belm, the warrior does more damage even if he got a result smaller than 20.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 25 novembre 2011 - 12:31 .

[Alesia_BH]

I just thought I'd add a remark or two about Mazzy.

Any character who can get their AC low enough can serve as a tank through the majority of SoA. Mazzy qualifies even if she isn't ideal (and even if I personally wouldn't be inclined to use her that way). Later on (at least to my mind) tanking becomes the province of arcane characters as well as those who can reach high resistance levels. Mazzy's qualifications are less impressive then.

The interesting thing about Mazzy is that her setup (referring here to her special abilities, items, and proficiencies) is actually rather clever and I suspect that some haven't noticed how it works. They make her a wonderful bow wielder. And while that's something which is easy to dismiss on damage ground to be sure, having a character around that can launch Arrows of Dispelling, Arrows of Biting, and Elemental Arrows at the right targets at the right times can be extremely helpful from a tactical view point. Bows can be very powerful in BG2 if used wisely and Mazzy can be quite good at it.

That leads us to Mazzy's items and special abilities. As a ranged fighter, you need to maintain distance. Mazzy's setup leaves her well positioned to do that. The Sword of Arvoreen will prevent her from being Slowed (or Stunned). Further, it allows her to drain the movement rate of those she engages in melee. Consequently, she can stay ranged and if someone approaches, she can use Arvoreen, drain their movement rate, withdraw, and then resume firing. What if someone makes their save against Arvoreen repeatedly? Well, then she can use her Haste ability and get some space that way. What if you'd prefer to have her stand her ground? In that case, she can use her Strength special ability and go to work. It all fits together quite nicely and, again, it's a clever setup.

Anyhoo. Good luck with whichever characters you choose. They can all work out splendidly so long as you take the time to learn how to use them.

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 25 novembre 2011 - 04:10 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Alesia_BH wrote...
And while [the use of bows]'s something which is easy to dismiss on damage ground to be sure, having a character around that can launch Arrows of Dispelling, Arrows of Biting, and Elemental Arrows at the right targets at the right times can be extremely helpful from a tactical view point. Bows can be very powerful in BG2 if used wisely and Mazzy can be quite good at it.

I knew this was coming when I wrote bows are bad.

You are right of course.

it's a clever setup.

You assume the developers intended for her to be used that way?

[Alesia_BH]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
You assume the developers intended for her to be used that way?

It could be a coincidence, but it seems a bit too fortuitous. I suspect that whoever designed Mazzy "got" ranged fighting. It is just a suspicion though.

In any event, whether it was by intent or not, her sword, her abilities, and her proficiencies do fit together.

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 25 novembre 2011 - 08:44 .

[Goph]

I've decided to stick with the pure Ranger, and not dual to cleric. I'm also still keeping Valygar, because he's just so cuddly. Anyway, I thought of what may be a bit of a silly question, but I thought I'd ask it anyway: Is there any point where I would benefit from dualing back to a Fighter? In other words, is there a point where the benefits of being a Ranger sort of max out, and the benefits or HLAs or something of being a traditional fighter become greater?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

You cannot dual from ranger to fighter. The only dualclassing option is the same as the multiclass option: Ranger/Cleric.

The ranger's advantage over the fighter really only come into play at high level in any case. Before you get Hardiness, Armor of Faith on it's own does very little to protect you. (10% damage reduction in the beginning of the game)

[Goph]

 Ah, thanks.  I was going to check first, but the board was right here and all 

[ussnorway]

Valygar got a lot cut when the game first came out so I'd grab Unfinished Business from G3 but Its mostly rpc (back ground) info... power gamers can happily skip it.

[Goph]

Okay thanks. I'll perhaps get to it eventually. It'll probably take several runs for me to work out exactly how I want to set all the tweaks, and that's what I'm working on now . . .