112 réponses à ce sujet

[SkittlesKat96]

People always say its a retcon but I kind of disagree...

If you go by that logic then pretty much every character who is thought to have died but actually didn't is a retcon...

Say hypothetically in a book a guy gets stabbed and left on the ground and the person who stabbed him thinks he is dead, but then he comes back in the next book, how the heck is that a retcon?

Also what if Leliana used the ashes or something to revive herself or prevent her death? Or a spirit/Andraste/the Maker (assuming Andraste and the Maker are real) saved her or something? The Warden could have just left her for dead/unconscious and assumed she was dead or something. Also don't say that 'She got decapitated' over exaggerated b.s...I've killed Leliana in one of my games and there wasn't even a finishing move on her from my character and in-game combat animations don't really mean much...

Also there are lines from Leliana about her death (although I think they might have been import bugged for a few people. I got the lines myself though and I did some sneaking around the game files for DA:O and to be honest I think some people must be lying about not getting the right import flags, at least in this case. Some import flags are more glitchier than others.)

Anyway I just wanted to clear that up...

EDIT: Also Anders revival has already been explained by Justice...also how many people actually killed off Leliana and had Anders die in their game...I don't like Bioware 'reviving' characters either but they can't always make so many variables.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 19 novembre 2011 - 12:05 .

[Wulfram]

Leliana was clearly established as dead. The Warden stabbed her until she died, potentially got a death animation and her codex said she was dead.

If it was resurrection, then it's not a retcon. But I really don't want resurrection to be introduced into the setting.

[Sith_exar_kun]

Hey, she fighted for andraste, she could have been saved by her.

[whykikyouwhy]

This is a fairly divisive issue, it seems. There was a thread from about a month ago where "retcon" was debated (or argued).

Personally, I didn't follow the path in DA:O that would have led to the fight with Leliana, though I have seen videos. Seems to me that death in Thedas - where spirits/demons can possess people or merge with them, where mages can wander the Fade, and where all manner of things could be enchanted and "miraculous" - is going to be particularly hazy under some circumstances. I don't think we know enough, definitively, to declare the bard from Orlais as a retcon.

At least, I wouldn't call her that.

[Arthur Cousland]

Some people have decapitated her. It's hard to imagine that the Sacred Ashes have the power to magically glue someone's severed head back on them. Perhaps Quentin did it?

As I have never killed Leliana, this particular scenario doesn't really bother me. I just wonder why Bioware let her be killable in the first place, if there was a chance that she might be brought back later. Perhaps she is immortal, and even if Leliana is shredded to tiny bite-sized cubes, she can reassemble herself after a period of time? Perhaps she could be Andraste or the Maker, reincarnated?

After the events of DA2, this mere "bard from Orlais" seems to be in a position of power in Theadas. I'm interested to see what the future holds for her.

[philippe willaume]

At the end the job of BW is to provide us with a story, so if Lelianna need to be resurrected so be it. (I like the char and never went that route).
That being said if you are resurrecting a killable char, you kind of need to come up with a bit of explanation and dialog option like.
"well, well I have heard a vicious rumour that you were dead"

Now if we kill her we kill her, in Andraste temple and she had visions from Andraste to join us. it is not that hard to accept that Andraste brought her back regardless if you minced her body and eat it as curry.

If the char is essential to future development it is fine, but the players decision need to be acknowledged, not necessarily abided by, but at least recognised.

Philippe

[WhiteKnyght]

Mount Daverus is a veritable goldmine of lyrium. Even Oghren said that much exposure could have changed the Ashes. Whose to say it cant do the same for people.

Seeing as Lyrium was inspired by Mercury, the old myths about mercury being the source of immortality could have been applied to lyrium.

[Plaintiff]

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana was clearly established as dead. The Warden stabbed her until she died, potentially got a death animation and her codex said she was dead.

If it was resurrection, then it's not a retcon. But I really don't want resurrection to be introduced into the setting.

Resurrection has already been introduced into the setting. There are several instances in Origins where corpses get up and walk around.

Also, the Codex can be wrong, who said it couldn't?

[Arius23]

Maybe she was resurrected by the Maker?

Maybe she's actually some sort of spirit now?

Why can't people just let the story play out and see what happens instead of getting all worked up about it.

[Wulfram]

Plaintiff wrote...

Resurrection has already been introduced into the setting. There are several instances in Origins where corpses get up and walk around.

Spirits possessing the corpses of the dead is not resurrection.

Also, the Codex can be wrong, who said it couldn't?

Codex entries which attributed to in game authors and sources may be unreliable, but Leliana's codex isn't.  And it's supported by the in game evidence.

If Leliana can not be said to have been established as dead then I really can't see who could.  Maybe Cailan, since you can actually burn his body in the DLC.

[Fieryeel]

I decapitated Zevran.

The next moment he's simply lying on the floor and asking to join my party.

Death animations don't always count.

[whykikyouwhy]

Wulfram wrote...

If Leliana can not be said to have been established as dead then I really can't see who could.  Maybe Cailan, since you can actually burn his body in the DLC.

I don't know that one character's feigned death or magical phoenix-like rebirth negates the possibility of death for other characters. I think it boils down to special circumstances - lyrium, divine intervention, heck, maybe even ye olde switcheroo with a twin. Other deaths in-game may not have had the right combination of elements to defy that ultimate end of mortality.

Any manner of explanation could be applicable with Leliana. We just don't have enough information yet - nothing concrete. And while one could argue that what we understand to be "death" seems evident, we don't truly understand the workings in Thedas. If beings can turn into dragons, or cast a wall of ice in front of them, or heal themselves, did we truly see a death that mirrors what we know of it? And who's to say "death," for certain creatures, is absolute?

[Wulfram]

I'm really not sure what your point is. Yes, you can handwave in a justification for Leliana not being dead, just like you can do that with basically any character.

That doesn't change the fact that Leliana was established clearly as dead, and that her presence in DA2 thus requires either a retcon or a resurrection. Personally, I don't have a problem with a retcon, though Bioware seems to have a silly aversion to admitting them.

[whykikyouwhy]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm really not sure what your point is. Yes, you can handwave in a justification for Leliana not being dead, just like you can do that with basically any character.

That doesn't change the fact that Leliana was established clearly as dead, and that her presence in DA2 thus requires either a retcon or a resurrection. Personally, I don't have a problem with a retcon, though Bioware seems to have a silly aversion to admitting them.

The term "handwave" amuses me, particularly here since with only two games and a few DLC, there really isn't a solid backstory for Leliana to "wave" away explanations over. We have a character of mystery, a bard, a rogue, a spy, and a devotee of Andraste and the Maker. We have a world where magic exists, transformations can occur, and witches can put pieces of themselves in lockets for safe-keeping.

So "dead" of a particularly extraordinary (and mysterious!) person does not necessarily equate dead - ceased to exist, finality. That's not a handwave - that's the recognition of possibility, and the acknowledgement that we simply don't know enough about her and her place in the DA-verse.

As I said on the other thread that I linked to earlier...if Flemeth can be a dragon, why can't Leliana be a phoenix? All within the realm of possibility.

[Wulfram]

And Oghren could be a time travelling Femshep on a mission to stop Sandal from creating the Reapers.

We know lots about Leliana, and tossing away all her characterization and backstory as a lie in order to avoid retconning a few games would be a particularly stupid move.

[whykikyouwhy]

Until her full story plays out, until the devs make concrete statements about her, I can't in good conscience claim that Bioware is tossing away anything, handwaving, lying, pulling any wool, or whatnot. But I think it's far easier for some folks to cry foul when the as-of-yet-unfinished story doesn't meet their approval instead of waiting.

*shrug*

[LadyJaneGrey]

Wulfram wrote...

And Oghren could be a time travelling Femshep on a mission to stop Sandal from creating the Reapers.

...

this would be fantastic.

[Chun Hei]

Wrex is Morrigan's old god baby.

Death scenes are not canon. I figured it out when Zevran was still alive to hit on my Warden after she ran him through with her sword.

You cannot loot Leliana's "dead" body and rogues in DA can feign death.

There is a lot a dragon blood around that has unestablished magical properties. If you killed Wynne too then the spirit may have picked a new body or resurrected one or both of them. Flemeth may have involved herself (again). I see many ways that she could be "brought back" while still keeping it DA plausible.

[Urzon]

Death animations don't count storywise...

Codex are written from what the writer "believes" to be true...

Bioware says all the ending slides are heresay and rumor...

Leliana is an expect rogue/spy...

Magic is an everyday thing...

and she gets "killed" on a mountain that lies on top of a huge supply of lyrium and is surround with holy spirits...

I don't see any handwaving or retcons here. The only people that say otherwise are angry that the person they killed because either: for the lolz, they hated them, or accidently came back into the story.

Like a bad rash, somethings just come back no matter what you do. You just have to live with it.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Actually in another thread I made about "Sister Nightingale" :

Wulfram wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

I had hoped a murdered Leiliana would act differently than a romanced or friend shipped leiliana but I didn't notice any differences. Is this a problem with the coding or just the way it was supposed to be?

I'm under the impression this is supposed to happen

Now, I have no idea if this is a removed scene, a scene that SHOULD show but isn't because of import errors (most likely), or just something nobody debating this topic has encountered... until that person who posted that link.

If it is an error, then I think it's one they need to fix ASAP because my problem with her being back is that there seemed to be NO explanation at all.  The explanation in that video?  Whether you like her being Lazarus or not, it's at least an explanation other than "Yeah, we wanted her in and don't care so deal." 

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 19 novembre 2011 - 07:57 .

[katling73]

Well, given that Leliana says when she first asks to join you that the Maker told her to, there's a potential explanation right there. If she's telling the truth then it seems the Maker is taking an interest in proceedings and if so, he'd probably be disinclined to let her die if he has a future use for her.

Frankly, my opinion (and personal head canon) is that there is something big about to happen for which the events of DA2 were the opening salvo. You've got Flemeth indicating she has some idea of what's going to happen with her 'edge of the abyss' comment and then there's Sandal's prophecy. My personal opinion is that a resurrected Leliana fits right into that sort of thing. Not that that's an issue for me because I didn't kill her but if you did, it fits in with the rest of the hints of something bigger on the way.

[esper]

Urzon wrote...

Death animations don't count storywise...

Codex are written from what the writer "believes" to be true...

Bioware says all the ending slides are heresay and rumor...

Leliana is an expect rogue/spy...

Magic is an everyday thing...

and she gets "killed" on a mountain that lies on top of a huge supply of lyrium and is surround with holy spirits...

I don't see any handwaving or retcons here. The only people that say otherwise are angry that the person they killed because either: for the lolz, they hated them, or accidently came back into the story.

Like a bad rash, somethings just come back no matter what you do. You just have to live with it.

You forgot in the presence of an urn which contents have established healing powers (and there is no gurarentee that Kolgrim knew what he was talking about when he said that the dragon blood destroy the ashes.
He thought that a big dragon was Andraste... I think that the was adding some attributes to dragon's that they didn't have).

[Wulfram]

Urzon wrote...

Death animations don't count storywise...

Frequently asserted, but just something people made up to justify Leliana regrowing a head.

Codex are written from what the writer "believes" to be true...

Leliana's codex has no in character writer

Bioware says all the ending slides are heresay and rumor...

They came up with that when they decided to retcon a whole bunch of them

Leliana is an expert rogue/spy...

Which doesn't give the ability to rise from the dead

Magic is an everyday thing...

Resurrection magic isn't, fortunately.

and she gets "killed" on a mountain that lies on top of a huge supply of lyrium and is surround with holy spirits...

I don't see any handwaving or retcons here. The only people that say otherwise are angry that the person they killed because either: for the lolz, they hated them, or accidently came back into the story.

Like a bad rash, somethings just come back no matter what you do. You just have to live with it.

I haven't killed Leliana in my game, and romanced her in the majority of the times I played Origins.  I just find the refusal to admit that it was a retcon tiresome.