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[EmperorSahlertz]

As long as her death is recognized and her return is explained within the lore, it is NOT a retcon. People just have a hard time actually learning what a retcon is, and what a retcon isn't.

[Wulfram]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As long as her death is recognized and her return is explained within the lore, it is NOT a retcon. People just have a hard time actually learning what a retcon is, and what a retcon isn't.

Who in this thread is arguing that a resurrection would be a retcon?

I think would be a bad thing for the setting, and it would be distinctly odd to stick such a momentous and transformative event in an obscure plotline that would never occur for most players, but it wouldn't be a retcon.

[HiroVoid]

So what you're saying is it's a retcon, or a poorly thought out explanation to keep Leliana in the story once they started working on sequels without fully thinking about it at the time the game was made?

[Urzon]

Wulfram wrote...

Frequently asserted, but just something people made up to justify Leliana regrowing a head.

 I'm guessing my poor warrior warden romanced a headless Zevran? Me beheading him when i first saw him was pretty grusome, but as if by magic; he regrew his head and started talking after I killed all his mercenaries. It was like some higher power (like Bioware) reached down and told him, "Death animations aren't lore". Then it reattached his head like the beheading never happened. 

Leliana's codex has no in character writer

It having no writer makes it 100% true? Was it written by the Maker himself, and he FedExed it to the Warden or something? Just because there is no name attached to it, doesn't mean it fact.

They came up with that when they decided to retcon a whole bunch of them

It wouldn't be a retcon if something hasn't even happened yet. One cannot retcon the future, only the past. Plus, did you really expect them to work in all possibly outcomes for everything, without getting rid of a couple? Bioware should have just gone with the comic book method and put up the sign, "Welcome to the Multiverse: Thedas Edition!".

Which doesn't give the ability to rise from the dead.

She is a spy. Spies that can't act, or they can't get out of a sticky situation, are dead spies. Since she survived to DAII, i'm guessing she is a good spy/actor.

Resurrection magic isn't, fortunately.

Since spirit healer is a class you can spec into, i'd beg to differ. Plus, how would you, or anyone of us, know all the different types of magics there are in Thedas? And, there is a jar of magical ashes not 10-20 feet away from where she "died" at. It's not like the Warden dumped the blood in there, picked up the urn, and then they proceded to shake it to get every last bit of ashes corrupted.

Modifié par Urzon, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:32 .

[Arius23]

Wulfram wrote...

I haven't killed Leliana in my game, and romanced her in the majority of the times I played Origins.  I just find the refusal to admit that it was a retcon tiresome.

I find people who want to jump to conclusions without waiting to see if a character's circumstances are expounded upon in future games tiresome.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wulfram wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As long as her death is recognized and her return is explained within the lore, it is NOT a retcon. People just have a hard time actually learning what a retcon is, and what a retcon isn't.

Who in this thread is arguing that a resurrection would be a retcon?

I think would be a bad thing for the setting, and it would be distinctly odd to stick such a momentous and transformative event in an obscure plotline that would never occur for most players, but it wouldn't be a retcon.

Or perhaps having her resurrected will only be a facet of the story, and the overall storyarc of Lelianna will still expand upon her role, wether or not she was ever resurrected. Her death merely being anohter nuance, and not an entirely seperate plot.

[HiroVoid]

I really don't know why people want to argue this. Bioware wanted to continue Leliana in the story. They didn't think about that when Dragon Age: Origins was developed. They make it so Leliana's alive no matter the path because that's what Bioware chose to do.

[Ophir147]

guys guys guys

get a load of this i drank a whole bunch of coffee then thought of this

what if leliana is dead... and due to her devout service to Andraste she was resurrected as one of the spirits (like the ones that ask you all of the riddles) and now she's like a ghost or something, except she's a badass poltergeist assassin acting as an agent of Andraste herself

And in future dlc you'll have to call the ghostbusters to stop her from advising the Divine from ordering an exalted March

... I'd buy it.

[Plaintiff]

Wulfram wrote...

Spirits possessing the corpses of the dead is not resurrection.

I beg to differ. Wynne is technically dead, or close enough as makes no difference, but she maintains her bodily and mental function with the aid of a spirit that has possessed her. The same could happen for Leliana. Why not? Plenty of spirits and demons continue to masquerade under the identity of the person they inhabit.

Codex entries which attributed to in game authors and sources may be unreliable, but Leliana's codex isn't  And it's supported by the in game evidence.

Perhaps the player is the in-game author, writing a codex entry based on what they think is true.

If Leliana can not be said to have been established as dead then I really can't see who could.  Maybe Cailan, since you can actually burn his body in the DLC.

Why does anyone have to be established as anything?

[BBK4114]

wastelander75 wrote...

I smell possible DA II DLC.

But that's just me.

AAAAArrrrrrgh! Maker no!  I can't stand Leliana being in EVERYTHING just because Laidlaw has some pixel crush on her.

I dislike her character iimmensely.  Bioware is really trying to lose my $$. 

And I give them a LOT of $$.  

[AlexXIV]

It's more of a canonisation than a retcon. Obviously DA:O gave us alot more options that Bioware can handle in sequels, so there is stuff that is being brought back into line. Whether it actually is a retcon or some call it so doesn't matter. Point is that the option to kill Leliana was probably something they regretted at some point.

The reason why it is not so bad is that probably not many people killed Leliana to begin with, or at least not too many people have no playthrough with Leliana alive. It's basically a non-issue. I found the Anders thing worse.

[philippe willaume]

AlexXIV wrote...

It's more of a canonisation than a retcon. Obviously DA:O gave us alot more options that Bioware can handle in sequels, so there is stuff that is being brought back into line. Whether it actually is a retcon or some call it so doesn't matter. Point is that the option to kill Leliana was probably something they regretted at some point.

The reason why it is not so bad is that probably not many people killed Leliana to begin with, or at least not too many people have no playthrough with Leliana alive. It's basically a non-issue. I found the Anders thing worse.

Not necessarily,
BW jobs is to guive a frame for a story that we we influence or try to infuence as we choose. for if for story the furure installement that charater needs to be resurected. This is their prorogative and the settings support resurection.
What need to be cattered for how ever, is the handling of the choice of the player that choose to kill the char.

I think this is more the core of that issue because it matters for those who chose to kill L.  A group of which I am not part of.
In many ways it is like the anders thing, it is no so much the end result it is more how it is sold to us.

Phil

[philippe willaume]

sorry dbly post, using a PC seems to be beyond my intellectual capacities

Modifié par philippe willaume, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:32 .

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Again, has anyone that did kill Leliana get to see the cutscene I reposted actually in their game? Because, if that scene is actually working properly in the game, all is good. If it isn't... then the people crying foul DO have a leg to stand on, at least until Bioware patches that scene to play properly.

Because, removed scenes IMO aren't and can't be canon. We can mod them to play anyway, but if Bioware removed it and it wasn't an accident, they have no obligation to make it have happened because they took it out. Just like Wynne saying "OMG U R A BLOOD MAGE" at the Circle tower... Bioware wrote the scene, had it totally finished, but it was literally game breaking (fail a persuasion check and you kill them all, making it so you can't recruit either side... grats game just broke) so it was removed. So, it did NOT happen even if some players modded it back in. Same I think with this... Bioware really should fix this back in, at least if they intend to.

[Gervaise]

I would just add in here that in our own world there are legends of the saints and other heroes where someone has had their head lopped off and then the saint/hero refixes it and they carry on as before. We say this is not possible in our world because reason tends to argue against such miracles/magic and therefore to believe in them is an aspect of faith.

In the world of Thedas magic is a reality, not something you believe in or not as part of your faith, and bearing in mind souls can jump from body to body and (according to his short story) Anders was run through by a sword and yet survived, therefore it would seem possible that provided some part of a character still exists, it can be restored and resurrected to the person it was before.

When you think about it, strictly speaking if the Arishok impales you on his sword and holds you aloft, you would think that would be curtains for the character. and yet in your duel with him he can do this repeatedly and provided you have healing magic or enough bottles to swig, you can recover to defeat him. It would seem that the normal rules regarding bodily healing do not apply in Thedas.

[DPSSOC]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As long as her death is recognized and her return is explained within the lore, it is NOT a retcon.

Well in the vanilla game (you know the only version you can guarantee people will see) her death isn't recognized and her ressurection isn't explained, cause she just kind of shows up at the end.  I think that qualifies (for the moment).  Even with the Sebastian DLC her death may be recognized (only done one run and it wasn't) but it's still not explained, nor is an explanation forth coming.

So I think it's fair to call it a retcon (for now).

I think the problem people are having is that Leliana essentially has 4 outcomes for DA:O (Left in Lothering, Killed at Urn, leaves after Urn, Follows the Warden), of those only one syncs up with her appearance in DA2 without demanding questions of how and why.  Bioware has not answered these questions and until they do it is a retcon (cause it's just saying 3/4 outcomes didn't happen) and people will continue to be pissed about it.

Not me personally I only got Leliana killed once to see how it panned out.  I may be disappointed with what Bioware's done but as a wise man once said, "Life sucks, get a helmet."

[AlexXIV]

I am just going to point out that at some point Dragon Age was supposed to be low fantasy, even according to devs if I recall right. Which means that not everything is possible. For example teleport and ressurrection. So I am not sure if a ressurrection is preferable to a retcon. Anyway, it may all have changed by now. I find it irritating how Bioware can't keep a straight face with this franchise. One day it is this and next day it is that. That's what bothers me much more than whether someone lives or dies. It just doesn't feel like there is much direction.

[whykikyouwhy]

DPSSOC wrote...
So I think it's fair to call it a retcon (for now).

I think the problem people are having is that Leliana essentially has 4 outcomes for DA:O (Left in Lothering, Killed at Urn, leaves after Urn, Follows the Warden), of those only one syncs up with her appearance in DA2 without demanding questions of how and why.  Bioware has not answered these questions and until they do it is a retcon (cause it's just saying 3/4 outcomes didn't happen) and people will continue to be pissed about it.

That seems a bit like declaring someone guilty on circumstantial evidence alone.

Personally, I'm not "pissed about it." I just don't feel the need to stick a loose tag on something when there isn't enough information to go on. Seems presumptupus, really. Leliana's story just doesn't fit the "retcon" definition given the broad scope of possibilities (and no direct word from the devs on the matter).

So too, it also seems presumptuous to assume that the devs didn't already know what they wanted to do with Leliana. Her story may have been far-reaching, and they've just put small pieces of it in the games and DLCs thus far. Nothing has shown, no solid proof exists to my knowledge, that they're making it up as they go along.

[DPSSOC]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
So I think it's fair to call it a retcon (for now).

I think the problem people are having is that Leliana essentially has 4 outcomes for DA:O (Left in Lothering, Killed at Urn, leaves after Urn, Follows the Warden), of those only one syncs up with her appearance in DA2 without demanding questions of how and why.  Bioware has not answered these questions and until they do it is a retcon (cause it's just saying 3/4 outcomes didn't happen) and people will continue to be pissed about it.

That seems a bit like declaring someone guilty on circumstantial evidence alone.

Personally, I'm not "pissed about it." I just don't feel the need to stick a loose tag on something when there isn't enough information to go on. Seems presumptupus, really. Leliana's story just doesn't fit the "retcon" definition given the broad scope of possibilities (and no direct word from the devs on the matter).

Broad, fan created, possibilities..  Bioware has altered established events with no acknowledgement or explanation, that's a retcon (in my mind).  If Bioware, not the fanbase, comes forward with more info I will re-evaluate, but for the moment it is what it is.

whykikyouwhy wrote...
So too, it also seems presumptuous to assume that the devs didn't already know what they wanted to do with Leliana. Her story may have been far-reaching, and they've just put small pieces of it in the games and DLCs thus far. Nothing has shown, no solid proof exists to my knowledge, that they're making it up as they go along.

Absence of proof is proof of absence.  Yes we don't have anything to say definitively that they're making this up as they go, but we also don't have anything to say definitively that they're not.  I shall continue to assume the worst until it is shown to be otherwise, life is much less depressing that way.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 20 novembre 2011 - 05:00 .

[hoorayforicecream]

DPSSOC wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
So too, it also seems presumptuous to assume that the devs didn't already know what they wanted to do with Leliana. Her story may have been far-reaching, and they've just put small pieces of it in the games and DLCs thus far. Nothing has shown, no solid proof exists to my knowledge, that they're making it up as they go along.

Absence of proof is proof of absence.  Yes we don't have anything to say definitively that they're making this up as they go, but we also don't have anything to say definitively that they're not.  I shall continue to assume the worst until it is shown to be otherwise, life is much less depressing that way.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

[AlexXIV]

DG said on occation they will change what they think is necessary for the story. So no, they are not all-knowing and have not everything planned out thoroughly and perfectly far ahead. Whoever 'tried' to kill her obviously failed. I doubt it is something spectacular as Andraste saving her. I personally think she either was left for dead while she wasn't or she just slipped away before the death blow, like Morrigan in Witch Hunt. I personally think that's ok because it gives us more Leliana in DA3 which is appreciated by most. I mean if I had to make the call to retcon her death or not see her again in DA3, I rather see her again. And if possible in an important role, not just a cameo appearance.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 20 novembre 2011 - 05:49 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

AlexXIV wrote...

I am just going to point out that at some point Dragon Age was supposed to be low fantasy, even according to devs if I recall right. Which means that not everything is possible. For example teleport and ressurrection. So I am not sure if a ressurrection is preferable to a retcon. Anyway, it may all have changed by now. I find it irritating how Bioware can't keep a straight face with this franchise. One day it is this and next day it is that. That's what bothers me much more than whether someone lives or dies. It just doesn't feel like there is much direction.

It's like a comic book company as it proceeds over the years... the setting and characters are whatever they need to be at that moment for the writer to do what they want to do at that moment.  There's no value placed on consistency, continuity, or internal reality. 


Now, does ONE miraculous but mysterious resurrection push something out of the bounds of "low fantasy"?  Hard to say. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 novembre 2011 - 06:08 .

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

Leliana was clearly established as dead. The Warden stabbed her until she died, potentially got a death animation and her codex said she was dead.

If it was resurrection, then it's not a retcon. But I really don't want resurrection to be introduced into the setting.

Death animations are not lore.

The only one that can be considered to be definite lore is the Ogre death animation because the codex on Ogres says they should be stabbed in the heart and the head.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Showing death animations for characters who aren't supposed to be dead is in effect lying to the player.