112 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Despite invoking the might of Samuel Jackson I disagree.  We have no evidence Lerpechauns exist, Leprechauns do not exist.  A positive assertion is false until proven true, that's the whole basis of "innocent until proven guilty".

[TEWR]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Showing death animations for characters who aren't supposed to be dead is in effect lying to the player.

Cauthrien, Zevran, and the First have the same issue. You can land a death animation on them but they can still appear later on with their bodies intact.

I'd say that for plot important characters death animations are not lore until something that isn't a random action happens.

Now if a cutscene had played where the Warden decapitated Leliana, it would be lore because that isn't dependant on a variable -- that is to say that the death animations happen randomly.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 novembre 2011 - 06:25 .

[whykikyouwhy]

DPSSOC wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Despite invoking the might of Samuel Jackson I disagree.  We have no evidence Lerpechauns exist, Leprechauns do not exist.  A positive assertion is false until proven true, that's the whole basis of "innocent until proven guilty".

"Innocent until proven guilty" however is about a status to an already existing and estabished state. That state being life, existence...of which, the default status is "innocence" because a crime has yet to be committed and then yet to be attributed to that person.
With leprechauns, the question there is whether or not they exist, not a state of being/status built upon the already established fact that they are living or breathing creatures. A person could point out that leprehauns exist in lore - the goal is then to prove that they exist beyond lore, in the real, tangible world. Does that mean that their as-far-as-we-can-tell absence from RL means they don't exist? No. Because lore could potentially support their existence. So without proof either way, it seems to me that they should be placed in a "pending" status of sorts.
With the devs and whether or not they have plotted out Leliana's story beyond one game at a time - we know that they wrote the character, we know that they developed her story. And really, it's about a matter of degrees - to what degree was Leliana written out. Which again, falls into "pending" - we just don't know. So how would it be proper to state an absolute either way.

[Killjoy Cutter]

The burden of proof is on the positive claim. In other words, the burden of proof is on those claiming that a thing exists.

[Chun Hei]

Leliana is walking around in DA2. The burden of proof falls on those who do not think she should be alive.

As for there being no explanation for her survival she does not owe Hawke or Isabela one. Hawke was not part of the original cast and Isabela was only at the Pearl and her ship not at the temple.

I know Isabela is a randy pirate but I still find it forced when she said, "Hey! You are Fereldan! I was in Denerim and I shagged the Warden! Just thought you would like to know!"

[Pedrak]

I'd say they stopped worrying about retcons by the time they left us import/resurrect a dead Warden to Awakening.

[Chun Hei]

Pedrak wrote...

I'd say they stopped worrying about retcons by the time they left us import/resurrect a dead Warden to Awakening.

!

[AlexXIV]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Now, does ONE miraculous but mysterious resurrection push something out of the bounds of "low fantasy"?  Hard to say. 

If it stays mysterious then maybe not. I for one didn't kill either Leliana nor Anders (or Oghren, or Wynne, etc. etc. I actually never kill any companions in my canon playthroughs). So it wouldn't bother me, I wouldn't even notice. But if they are going to change the lore or setting ... I mean they can as well implement light sabers or laser guns, etc. Changung stuff around like that does not just make the story inconsistent, it makes the world inconsistent. Which is ridiculous. It'd be like George Lucas and his Midichlorians. In the OT the force was a mysterious energy, in the prequels they suddenly started counting it's strengh. And then he started to talk about how Luke is the strongest force user ever, etc. It all turned into a childish competition BS. Hard to take Star Wars serious after that. And same can happen to Dragon Age. Whenever something starts on 'mature' level it will draw mature audience and fans. If then it turns to child's play then many of the original crowd will drop it.

And honestly, what's so hard about being consistent? The only lead writer of Dragon Age is David. There are not like dozens or hundrets of different writers who all write their own story in the DA universe, like it is in Star Wars for example. Or other franchises that contain hundrets of books, comics, movies, TV shows, games, etc, etc.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 novembre 2011 - 02:16 .

[LobselVith8]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

People always say its a retcon but I kind of disagree...

If The Warden kills Leliana in Origins, she's dead. If she's alive in the sequel, then that means it changes the narrative of the previous story - which is the exact definition of a recton. I get the feeling that the people who disagree with it being a recton think it's purely slander against Dragon Age II to say that it's a recton, instead it's addressing that it's literally fitting the definition of the word.

Per the definition: Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in a fictional work.

Leliana being alive, if she was killed in Origins, changes Leliana's status from being a corpse to being alive, and it changes the narrative of The Warden killing her in the ruins of the temple.

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

If you go by that logic then pretty much every character who is thought to have died but actually didn't is a retcon...

Yes, every character who was killed in a narrative, and who came back to live, i.e. Oghren, Anders, Justice, ect., is a recton of the previously established narrative. Even David Gaider, the head writer of Dragon Age II, admitted that Justice and Anders in Kirkwall was handwaving, when addressing why Nathaniel wasn't a companion in Dragon Age II (which was a position then filled by Sebastian).

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Say hypothetically in a book a guy gets stabbed and left on the ground and the person who stabbed him thinks he is dead, but then he comes back in the next book, how the heck is that a retcon?

Sherlock Holmes was killed. And that death was rectonned by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle because of popular demand for the character.

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Also what if Leliana used the ashes or something to revive herself or prevent her death? Or a spirit/Andraste/the Maker (assuming Andraste and the Maker are real) saved her or something? The Warden could have just left her for dead/unconscious and assumed she was dead or something. Also don't say that 'She got decapitated' over exaggerated b.s...I've killed Leliana in one of my games and there wasn't even a finishing move on her from my character and in-game combat animations don't really mean much...

The ashes are destroyed by the dragon blood, which is why the Guardian tries to kill The Warden. It's why no one finds any evidence of the ashes when Brother Genitivi brings his expedition to the mountain. Regardless, if Leliana is dead, how can she do anything?

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Also there are lines from Leliana about her death (although I think they might have been import bugged for a few people. I got the lines myself though and I did some sneaking around the game files for DA:O and to be honest I think some people must be lying about not getting the right import flags, at least in this case. Some import flags are more glitchier than others.)

The codex addressed that she died. As the codex reads, "When The Warden corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian."

[BBK4114]

AlexXIV wrote...
And honestly, what's so hard about being consistent? The only lead writer of Dragon Age is David. There are not like dozens or hundrets of different writers who all write their own story in the DA universe, like it is in Star Wars for example. Or other franchises that contain hundrets of books, comics, movies, TV shows, games, etc, etc.

I believe the person responsible for the overall vision and implementation for DA:O left the company when he saw what was happening with DA2, didn't he?  He said he has no hard feelings - that it is a business after all, and that after the stress of the long hours, etc. it was time for him to move on. But that would be my guess as to why the drastic changes in play style, and narrative have occurred.

This is not fact, to be sure, just my speculation.  

[StarcloudSWG]

It is pretty clearly retroactive continuity. If you killed her in Dragon Age: Origins, she's dead. And unlike other fantasy world franchises, people don't come back to life as themselves, ever.

Unless you're an age-old goddess cast adrift like Flemeth is, and you have access to power and knowledge, and prepare for it like she did.

Dead, on Thedas, is Dead.

For Leliana to be alive in Dragon Age 2 when she's killed in Dragon Age: Origins, the only explanation is that she never died in Dragon Age: Origins. This means continuity was changed, retroactively.

By definition, it's a retcon. Your choice at the Ashes didn't matter.

[Chun Hei]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Unless you're an age-old goddess cast adrift like Flemeth is, and you have access to power and knowledge, and prepare for it like she did.

Wynne-Faith and Kristoff-Justice.

[maxernst]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I'm not even going to read the thread.

Lelianna landed in a thick coating of dust, some of which were Andraste's Ashes. After the Warden left, she grew her head back, stood up, and headed off to the Chantry to do the Maker's work.

It's that simple.

And if you don't think any o f the Ashes ever left the Urn - 1) The Warden takes a pinch of the ashes BEFORE desecrating them and 2) read some studies on particulate fecal matter in the home. Crap gets EVERYWHERE.

Not to mention the fact that Oghren thinks the properties of the ashes are a result of all the lyrium in the mountain in which case the ashes may not matter.  Perhaps anybody who died there would come back to life (note that Wynne is also alive regardless, lending support to this interpretation).  We also don't know for certain that resurrection is impossible in Thedas--in fact, Wynne's story suggests otherwise. I've always wondered if the Warden and Alistair actually died atop the tower and were brought back to life by Flemeth.  Maybe the Maker himself resurrects Leliana.

Modifié par maxernst, 22 novembre 2011 - 12:00 .

[AlexXIV]

maxernst wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

I'm not even going to read the thread.

Lelianna landed in a thick coating of dust, some of which were Andraste's Ashes. After the Warden left, she grew her head back, stood up, and headed off to the Chantry to do the Maker's work.

It's that simple.

And if you don't think any o f the Ashes ever left the Urn - 1) The Warden takes a pinch of the ashes BEFORE desecrating them and 2) read some studies on particulate fecal matter in the home. Crap gets EVERYWHERE.

Not to mention the fact that Oghren thinks the properties of the ashes are a result of all the lyrium in the mountain in which case the ashes may not matter.  Perhaps anybody who died there would come back to life (note that Wynne is also alive regardless, lending support to this interpretation).  We also don't know for certain that resurrection is impossible in Thedas--in fact, Wynne's story suggests otherwise. I've always wondered if the Warden and Alistair actually died atop the tower and were brought back to life by Flemeth.  Maybe the Maker himself resurrects Leliana.

Well actually I could accept that. As long as it is something that doesn't happen all the time. Divine intervention is ok in fantasy games. Btw. the Warden and Alstair don't die. As far as we know anyway. Flemeth rescued them in the last moment and healed their wounds. At least that's what we are led to believe and there is really not much you could base a 'they died up there and were ressurrected' theory.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 novembre 2011 - 12:11 .

[Asch Lavigne]

The question is if you didn't kill Leliana are they going to make it cannon that yes you did, and whatever happened to bring her back is still going to happen to her? I don't want my Leliana saying Andraste saved her when I never killed her or anything.

[whykikyouwhy]

AlexXIV wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

I'm not even going to read the thread.

Lelianna landed in a thick coating of dust, some of which were Andraste's Ashes. After the Warden left, she grew her head back, stood up, and headed off to the Chantry to do the Maker's work.

It's that simple.

And if you don't think any o f the Ashes ever left the Urn - 1) The Warden takes a pinch of the ashes BEFORE desecrating them and 2) read some studies on particulate fecal matter in the home. Crap gets EVERYWHERE.

Not to mention the fact that Oghren thinks the properties of the ashes are a result of all the lyrium in the mountain in which case the ashes may not matter.  Perhaps anybody who died there would come back to life (note that Wynne is also alive regardless, lending support to this interpretation).  We also don't know for certain that resurrection is impossible in Thedas--in fact, Wynne's story suggests otherwise. I've always wondered if the Warden and Alistair actually died atop the tower and were brought back to life by Flemeth.  Maybe the Maker himself resurrects Leliana.

Well actually I could accept that. As long as it is something that doesn't happen all the time. Divine intervention is ok in fantasy games. Btw. the Warden and Alstair don't die. As far as we know anyway. Flemeth rescued them in the last moment and healed their wounds. At least that's what we are led to believe and there is really not much you could base a 'they died up there and were ressurrected' theory.

I don't think this is something intended to happen all of the time, but our exposure to the games and the characters within them limits our scope. We have a small amount of people that we, as players, interact with - and of those, several happen to be extraordinary in some way. In most heroic journies, the protagonist winds up being surrounded by people with great skill and grand abilities, or who are touched somehow by the divine (usually for a special purpose).

It doesn't seem strange to me that this might be the case - that Leliana is one such individual in the "extraordinary" group. And again, until we know for certain, the true story is hazy and unknown. Given over to speculation, yes, but nothing that can be declared as an absolute.

[TJPags]

Oh, yay, the Leliana retcon debate.  I like this one.

1.  The Warden can kill Leliana.  That we all know.

2.  There is no indication in DAO, from the point she is killed on, that she actually lived.

3.  There is no mention, in DA2, of her "death" (if that route in DAO was taken).

4.  The mountain doesn't bring everyone back to life, even if Oghren's pile of Lyrium theory is considered - didn't anyone else see the corpses laying the chamber where the Ashes were?

5.  The Ashes heal people - they don't resurrect them.  Otherwise, why the rush to find them and get them to Eamon before he died?

6.  I agree death animations are not "canon" . . . but Zev starts talking immediately, he doesn't lay there not moving the rest of the game.

The devs have said they have an explanation that they haven't yet provided - which implies, to me, that there is no explanation that currently exists, be it floating ashes in the wind or piles of lyrium.  Maybe the explanation will make sense when we get it, but as of now, we don't have it.

Exact definition or not, to me, it's a retcon.

[Realmzmaster]

Why is this important? Leliana only dies for certain in one instance out of four possibilities. The Warden kills her because she wants to stop the Warden from defiling the ashes. If the Warden leaves her in Lothering the Warden cannot be for certain she died. If she leaves after the defiling of the Ashes the Warden does not know if she dies. If the Warden does not defile the Ashes she continues with him unless sent away which is like leaving after the Ashes quest.

If the fans can request that their Warden who did the US be imported into Awakening why can't Bioware use the ending for Leliana it chooses and make that canon? Therefore Leliana can appear in DA2.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...

Oh, yay, the Leliana retcon debate.  I like this one.

1.  The Warden can kill Leliana.  That we all know.

I refute this .

Just kidding. Wanted to make a funny.

2.  There is no indication in DAO, from the point she is killed on, that she actually lived.

A fair point. The game gives no hint that the mountain may have some sort of effect on Leliana's death.

3.  There is no mention, in DA2, of her "death" (if that route in DAO was taken).

Yea, unless you have the Sebastian DLC or I'm guessing MotA -- since she's supposed to react differently depending on if you did Faith prior to MotA -- then DAII makes no mention of her death.

4.  The mountain doesn't bring everyone back to life, even if Oghren's pile of Lyrium theory is considered - didn't anyone else see the corpses laying the chamber where the Ashes were?

That corpse in the same room as the Ashes leads me to believe that it was a Tevinter intruder. Specifically a Magister because it's wearing one item associated with Tevinter and I interpret the second to also be associated with Tevinter:

1) Belt of the Magister Lords
2) Golden Demon Pendant

5.  The Ashes heal people - they don't resurrect them.  Otherwise, why the rush to find them and get them to Eamon before he died?

It's believed that they can heal any malady, because that's the legend surrounding them. No one has heard any other legend surrounding them.

Just because it wasn't ever heard, doesn't mean it can't ever happen.

6.  I agree death animations are not "canon" . . . but Zev starts talking immediately, he doesn't lay there not moving the rest of the game.

I doubt Leliana would deign to talk with the person who just tried to shove a sword through her chest.

Zevran was an assassin, so it was just business and he admits that he enjoys living and has nothing to lose by talking to the Warden since the Crows would kill him on principle anyway.

[TEWR]

The ashes are destroyed by the dragon blood, which is why the Guardian tries to kill The Warden. It's why no one finds any evidence of the ashes when Brother Genitivi brings his expedition to the mountain. Regardless, if Leliana is dead, how can she do anything?

There's absolutely nothing to support Kolgrim's claim that the Ashes will indeed stop having magical properties because you poured dragon's blood -- which has properties that affect healing and constitution beneficially -- in them.

1) He's a Reaver. Reavers go insane.
2) He isn't a master of the arcane, so he pulled it out of nowhere. None of the mages in the cult are blood mages -- in the sense that they actually use the blood mage type tree. I know Reavers are a form of blood magic, but I mean the typical usage of blood mage -- so they can't know about something that deals with blood. And again, they're insane.
3) The Guardian got pissed off because the Ashes were defiled, not because they weren't magical anymore. Didn't Kolgrim say that defiling the Ashes would destroy the Guardian? Why would the Warden fight something that should've been destroyed?

[Atakuma]

Retcon or not, it's still lazy writing.

Modifié par Atakuma, 22 novembre 2011 - 05:09 .

[TEWR]

possibly. Personally, it all depends on how Bioware handles it.

[Atakuma]

My guess is that they'll ignore it completely.

Modifié par Atakuma, 22 novembre 2011 - 05:25 .