112 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I wouldn't be surprised if that did happen.

I'm guessing that their explanation will derive from some of the speculation on her revival.

[Urzon]

They could just as easily say, "A wizard did it" to explain it all.

But even then it wouldn't be enough. People would just start to argue why would Anders be in the super secret Andraste resting place, much less, why would he heal Leliana?

Modifié par Urzon, 22 novembre 2011 - 05:59 .

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...
The devs have said they have an explanation that they haven't yet provided - which implies, to me, that there is no explanation that currently exists, be it floating ashes in the wind or piles of lyrium.  Maybe the explanation will make sense when we get it, but as of now, we don't have it.

Exact definition or not, to me, it's a retcon.

Even if the Maker saved her to make her His herald for His return?

Would sort of explainwhy she went back to Orlais. After all she left my Warden without much of an explaination either.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

All the evidence of WHY (still not HOW, but this why makes it so we don't really need to know as much, if what she says is to beleived) HERE... The only question is, is this scene broken and not playing for those that killed her, or is it broken and the person why made this video modded it back int his game?

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Oh, yay, the Leliana retcon debate.  I like this one.

1.  The Warden can kill Leliana.  That we all know.

2.  There is no indication in DAO, from the point she is killed on, that she actually lived.

3.  There is no mention, in DA2, of her "death" (if that route in DAO was taken).

4.  The mountain doesn't bring everyone back to life, even if Oghren's pile of Lyrium theory is considered - didn't anyone else see the corpses laying the chamber where the Ashes were?

5.  The Ashes heal people - they don't resurrect them.  Otherwise, why the rush to find them and get them to Eamon before he died?

6.  I agree death animations are not "canon" . . . but Zev starts talking immediately, he doesn't lay there not moving the rest of the game.

The devs have said they have an explanation that they haven't yet provided - which implies, to me, that there is no explanation that currently exists, be it floating ashes in the wind or piles of lyrium.  Maybe the explanation will make sense when we get it, but as of now, we don't have it.

Exact definition or not, to me, it's a retcon.

I agree with TJPags...

[Chun Hei]

There is one thing that may explain her survival: Divine Intervention.

Her personal perspective on the Maker was mocked by the other Sisters but she told the Warden that she KNOWS that the Maker cares and intervenes on behalf of his children and has NOT abandoned humanity. I admit that this explanation can be handled VERY BADLY in future games but it would be interesting if Bioware established that the Maker DID exist though he may not fit the official Chantry dogma.

[Chun Hei]

Whoa sorry. I thought I had read all the pages when I made my last post.

[esper]

Chun Hei wrote...

There is one thing that may explain her survival: Divine Intervention.

Her personal perspective on the Maker was mocked by the other Sisters but she told the Warden that she KNOWS that the Maker cares and intervenes on behalf of his children and has NOT abandoned humanity. I admit that this explanation can be handled VERY BADLY in future games but it would be interesting if Bioware established that the Maker DID exist though he may not fit the official Chantry dogma.

I will be so angry if any Deity's exstience is de/confirmed.
I like that religion is religion and it is a question of faith. It should stay that way, it makes the whole setting much more interesting and relateable.

[Atakuma]

esper wrote...

Chun Hei wrote...

There is one thing that may explain her survival: Divine Intervention.

Her personal perspective on the Maker was mocked by the other Sisters but she told the Warden that she KNOWS that the Maker cares and intervenes on behalf of his children and has NOT abandoned humanity. I admit that this explanation can be handled VERY BADLY in future games but it would be interesting if Bioware established that the Maker DID exist though he may not fit the official Chantry dogma.

I will be so angry if any Deity's exstience is de/confirmed.
I like that religion is religion and it is a question of faith. It should stay that way, it makes the whole setting much more interesting and relateable.

Agreed. Unfortunately the revelations in legacy leads me to believe they might be heading in that direction.

[Urzon]

esper wrote...

I will be so angry if any Deity's exstience is de/confirmed.
I like that religion is religion and it is a question of faith. It should stay that way, it makes the whole setting much more interesting and relateable.

I'd prefer there not to be another unknown evil dark god behind everything as well. Nothing ruins a game more, than after you kill the main bad guy; you find out he was just a puppet to some ultimate evil we have never heard of.

I wouldn't mind the last boss being Flemeth though, because we know she is behind alot of thing in Thedas. But, I see her more as the Seer or Oracle archetype. She is going around making sure everything is in place for the final confrontation. Which is hopefully not against some dark god.

[Maria Caliban]

No, it's not a retcon. It's canon.

Retcon is retroactive continuity. You have to have continuity before you can change it retroactively.

I played a female Reven. In canon, Reven is male. That's not a retcon; that's BioWare's version of events conflicting with the choices I made.

Likewise, BioWare has decided that either the Warden never tried to kill Leliana, or if they did, it didn't take. It's not a retcon because they never said she died.

[esper]

Urzon wrote...

esper wrote...

I will be so angry if any Deity's exstience is de/confirmed.
I like that religion is religion and it is a question of faith. It should stay that way, it makes the whole setting much more interesting and relateable.

I'd prefer there not to be another unknown evil dark god behind everything as well. Nothing ruins a game more, than after you kill the main bad guy; you find out he was just a puppet to some ultimate evil we have never heard of.

I wouldn't mind the last boss being Flemeth though, because we know she is behind alot of thing in Thedas. But, I see her more as the Seer or Oracle archetype. She is going around making sure everything is in place for the final confrontation. Which is hopefully not against some dark god.

An engima who has existed throught out the whole series is fine. Now I will have a problem if Flemeth is a god (in any other form than and Old God, whom I don't consider deityties in the normal sense).

[Wulfram]

Maria Caliban wrote...

No, it's not a retcon. It's canon.

Retcon is retroactive continuity. You have to have continuity before you can change it retroactively.

I played a female Reven. In canon, Reven is male. That's not a retcon; that's BioWare's version of events conflicting with the choices I made.

You're continuing in the same continuity as the Origins game you're importing.  Thus it is a retcon.

Likewise, BioWare has decided that either the Warden never tried to kill Leliana, or if they did, it didn't take. It's not a retcon because they never said she died.

IIRC we've been told that the Warden's fight with Leliana has happened if it happened. 

They said she died when in the codex they said "When The Warden corrupted and
destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was
killed alongside the guardian."

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Oh, yay, the Leliana retcon debate.  I like this one.

1.  The Warden can kill Leliana.  That we all know.

2.  There is no indication in DAO, from the point she is killed on, that she actually lived.

3.  There is no mention, in DA2, of her "death" (if that route in DAO was taken).

4.  The mountain doesn't bring everyone back to life, even if Oghren's pile of Lyrium theory is considered - didn't anyone else see the corpses laying the chamber where the Ashes were?

5.  The Ashes heal people - they don't resurrect them.  Otherwise, why the rush to find them and get them to Eamon before he died?

6.  I agree death animations are not "canon" . . . but Zev starts talking immediately, he doesn't lay there not moving the rest of the game.

The devs have said they have an explanation that they haven't yet provided - which implies, to me, that there is no explanation that currently exists, be it floating ashes in the wind or piles of lyrium.  Maybe the explanation will make sense when we get it, but as of now, we don't have it.

Exact definition or not, to me, it's a retcon.

I agree with TJPags...

Stop the world!!! Alert the press!!!!!!  Lob and I agree!!!!!!!!

Actually, I think we've always agreed on this . . . .

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...
The devs have said they have an explanation that they haven't yet provided - which implies, to me, that there is no explanation that currently exists, be it floating ashes in the wind or piles of lyrium. Maybe the explanation will make sense when we get it, but as of now, we don't have it.

Exact definition or not, to me, it's a retcon.

Even if the Maker saved her to make her His herald for His return?

Would sort of explainwhy she went back to Orlais. After all she left my Warden without much of an explaination either.

I'm waiting for the explanation.  I'll form an opinion when I have it.

However, I will say, the fact they did it without an explanation annoys me.  A Lot.

Modifié par TJPags, 23 novembre 2011 - 03:23 .

[TJPags]

Maria Caliban wrote...

No, it's not a retcon. It's canon.

Retcon is retroactive continuity. You have to have continuity before you can change it retroactively.

I played a female Reven. In canon, Reven is male. That's not a retcon; that's BioWare's version of events conflicting with the choices I made.

Likewise, BioWare has decided that either the Warden never tried to kill Leliana, or if they did, it didn't take. It's not a retcon because they never said she died.

To me, this is pure semantics.

I don't know what Reven is, but I assume it's a character in a game, that could be male or female.  Someone wrote a book stating that Reven was male.  Did subsequent games involving Reven make Reven exclusively male?

Here, we have an option that leads to Leliana dead.  Whether you want to call it a retcon, or a new canon, it's pissing on the choice they gave us, and with no explanation.

To me, that's BS.

[legion999]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

All the evidence of WHY (still not HOW, but this why makes it so we don't really need to know as much, if what she says is to beleived) HERE... The only question is, is this scene broken and not playing for those that killed her, or is it broken and the person why made this video modded it back int his game?

That gives a vague answer to her survival but it's better than nothing. To badDA2 doesn't have the most bug free of import systems..

I'm suprised no one else mentioned/saw this video in this thread.

Modifié par legion999, 23 novembre 2011 - 07:38 .

[DPSSOC]

Maria Caliban wrote...
No, it's not a retcon. It's canon.

Retcon is retroactive continuity. You have to have continuity before you can change it retroactively.

I played a female Reven. In canon, Reven is male. That's not a retcon; that's BioWare's version of events conflicting with the choices I made.

 
You'd have a point if we weren't able to import our DA:O games (which wouldn't have changed the game really).  You can still have non-canon continuity, see KotOR 2 where you can again say Revan was female.  Bioware can say it's not canon and as such don't have to work around the posibility in EU material, but if they're going to allow the continuation of non-canon imports thery still have to maintain that continuity.    With the import Bioware is allowing the continuation of non-canon storylines so changes to the continuity must be addressed within said lines or it's a retcon.  This covers Anders being alive if he died in DA:A as well as Leliana.

If they've decided that they need to enforce canon to continue the story that's fine, but if that's the case they really need to be up front with the players about it.  I've said it in other threads, nowhere near as many people would be upset with Leliana's return if Bioware had come out and said, "Unfortunately for the sake of the story some of your decisions can't be carried over."  They'd still be disappointed but not nearly as much as when they're playing the game and suddenly something doesn't sync with their import.

[SkittlesKat96]

legion999 wrote...

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

All the evidence of WHY (still not HOW, but this why makes it so we don't really need to know as much, if what she says is to beleived) HERE... The only question is, is this scene broken and not playing for those that killed her, or is it broken and the person why made this video modded it back int his game?

That gives a vague answer to her survival but it's better than nothing. To badDA2 doesn't have the most bug free of import systems..

I'm suprised no one else mentioned/saw this video in this thread.

People will keep ignoring it as always and claiming that they didn't get the right import (the Anders one is bugged for most people but I've checked the DA:O files and to be honest most people should have got the Leliana dialog, at least three quarters or more...)

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 25 novembre 2011 - 01:13 .

[Giltspur]

Retcon?  Not if Bioware provides an explanation that explains why she isn't in fact dead in save games where she's believed to have died.

Now whether Bioware's explanation will be any good is another matter.  

[MattTrash]

http://dragonage.wik..._(Dragon_Age_II)

"If imported from a save where Leliana fought and was killed by the Warden after the defiling of the Sacred Ashes of Andraste:
There are many tales of Leliana, Orlesian adventuress and bard, the most recent being that she fought against the Fifth Blight. Some even say she died at the hands of the Hero of Ferelden. How she could be alive—and reportedly acting as an agent of the Divine—is unknown. Perhaps the story of her death is exaggerated... or perhaps the supposed place of her demise, the altar of the fabled Urn of Sacred Ashes, is also the place of her rebirth. The truth remains to be seen."

[mk123]

Hey, in my playthrough, Arl Eamon got chewed up and spat out by the Archdemon, and he still showed up at the coronation hale and hearty. Those Ashes do good work.

[WhiteKnyght]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

People always say its a retcon but I kind of disagree...

If you go by that logic then pretty much every character who is thought to have died but actually didn't is a retcon...

Say hypothetically in a book a guy gets stabbed and left on the ground and the person who stabbed him thinks he is dead, but then he comes back in the next book, how the heck is that a retcon?

Also what if Leliana used the ashes or something to revive herself or prevent her death? Or a spirit/Andraste/the Maker (assuming Andraste and the Maker are real) saved her or something? The Warden could have just left her for dead/unconscious and assumed she was dead or something. Also don't say that 'She got decapitated' over exaggerated b.s...I've killed Leliana in one of my games and there wasn't even a finishing move on her from my character and in-game combat animations don't really mean much...

Also there are lines from Leliana about her death (although I think they might have been import bugged for a few people. I got the lines myself though and I did some sneaking around the game files for DA:O and to be honest I think some people must be lying about not getting the right import flags, at least in this case. Some import flags are more glitchier than others.)

Anyway I just wanted to clear that up...

EDIT: Also Anders revival has already been explained by Justice...also how many people actually killed off Leliana and had Anders die in their game...I don't like Bioware 'reviving' characters either but they can't always make so many variables.

Wynne died once in Origins. A Fade Spirit brought her back to life. Justice does the same thing for Anders.

One could also argue that having a spirit inside of them makes you immune to death(which would explain Wynne's presence in Asunder if you killed her in Origins).

Leliana can be confronted about her "death" in DAII, and states that the Maker saved her(probably doubles as an inside joke because of the MAKERS of the game deciding it wasn't her time to die).

So there was no retcon.

A retcon(retroactive continuity) is when past events are deliberately rewritten with no explaination as to why.

Leliana's death is acknowledged and her resurrection is explained and therefore not a retcon.

TJPags wrote...

Oh, yay, the Leliana retcon debate.  I like this one.

3.  There is no mention, in DA2, of her "death" (if that route in DAO was taken).

Exact definition or not, to me, it's a retcon.

You must not have picked the right dialogue option. Because DA2 DOES mention it. You need to have The Exiled Prince installed though.


Hawke: Sister Leliana? From Lothering? But I heard you died.

Leliana: The Maker knew it was not my time. There is more for me to do in this world.



There.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 22 mai 2013 - 03:01 .

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Wynne died once in Origins. A Fade Spirit brought her back to life. Justice does the same thing for Anders.

One could also argue that having a spirit inside of them makes you immune to death(which would explain Wynne's presence in Asunder if you killed her in Origins).

Leliana can be confronted about her "death" in DAII, and states that the Maker saved her(probably doubles as an inside joke because of the MAKERS of the game deciding it wasn't her time to die).

So there was no retcon.

Leliana was dead in Origins. She's alive in Dragon Age II. It's a recton.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

A retcon(retroactive continuity) is when past events are deliberately rewritten with no explaination as to why.

That's not the case. A recton is an alternation of what was previously written; that's what makes it retroactive continuity. That's precisely what it is - regardless of whether an explanation is provided or not. Providing an explanation for why Leliana is now alive doesn't change that it's a recton of the past narrative in Origins of Leliana being a corpse when The Warden kills her, which is noted in the codex for the character and even in the game programming.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Leliana's death is acknowledged and her resurrection is explained and therefore not a retcon.

"Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work."