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[Nimrodell]

One thing, this topic has nothing to do with feminine issues or feminism or anything that is related to those topics. Actually, ‘tis quite refreshing to have a story about the first sin of men that doesn’t blame a female for a fall from grace.

This thing is bugging me for quite some time. So far we encountered two darkspawn emissaries that have their own free will - The Architect and Corypheus. We don't know how Architect came to be and for Corypheus we know that he is one of the ancient Tevinter magisters that served Dumat.

Broodmothers are ghouls, not darkspawn and yet again, the Mother possessed knowledge of arcane arts and Fade which makes her rather awkward ghoul, unless she used to be a tainted female mage. But how it came to be that initial darkspawn numbers grew? Did those ancient magisters that became first darkspawn grab, stole females, treated them like darkspawn did Laryn and Hespith or can it be that after all, there were actually female ancient Tevinter magisters that assaulted the Golden City and became something like first broodmothers? In all ancient magisters depictions so far, we’ve seen what resembles male figures only. I didn’t stumble onto female archon so far, Black Divine is male… and yet again, there are female Tevinter mages that aspire to become magisters (Hadriana or Varania for instance), meaning it’s not gender oppressive society. Females can be magisters in Warden’s or Hawke’s time at least. Could it be that depicting those ancient magisters only as male ones so far or making that impression could be Chantry’s doing thus having a parallel with Christian Orthodox or Catholic beliefs even in this regard, just the opposite?


Here can’t be determined the gender of magisters – only ominous hooded figures with blood altar. Can it be that after all, there is actually a female magister here? And if there’s no female magister, than why there’s none?


Here, all of them seem male, no feminine outlines nor marks as I can see.


Again, these faces, distorted, changed, but could it be that somewhere among them is actually female magister or magisters? It’s a tapestry, but strangely, usually there is distinction between genders, even in crude art made by ancient people like those Fish People statues in Lepenski Vir, or in work of Pablo Picasso, take your pick.

Who gave birth to Architect, spawned him – perhaps ancient Tevinter magister like Corypheus was, only female? It’s just strange that there is no mention of female magisters among those who committed the sin by entering the Golden City, and yet again darkspawn numbers grew, though I’m having hard time picturing someone like Corypheus behaving like those darkspawn in Dead Trenches as Hespith described them, their ritual of turning Laryn into broodmother. Were there actually female ancient magisters, that stepped into Golden City? The Mother is unique broodmother but she was freed, not like the Architect or Corypheus. And, if there were ancient female Tevinter magisters that actually entered the Golden City – what would become of them? Female form of emissaries? Do darkspawn even have a gender – even though in physical build resemble males?

[esper]

Well. Some theorize that Flemeth might be one who managed to go uncorrupted. Not sure if I believe it.

We honestely don't know. But I wouldn't go after that art, I think it is impossible to say the gender of those. The one staying in the back and being partly blocked by a shield could be female.

[Nimrodell]

Ah, tis just whole DA impression that magisters and darkspawn are male... and I keep wondering about it.

[esper]

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah, tis just whole DA impression that magisters and darkspawn are male... and I keep wondering about it.

Yeah, I had that impression too, but I don't know from where. I think it is because I for some reasons think of the arch demons as male (don't know why I do that too).

But the fact is that we don't know, it a 100 %.

[Nimrodell]

In almost every religion, basic story, usually females are guilty for men's fall from grace (ofc, there are exceptions), may it be Asherah, Lilith, or Eve or even Izanami... but here, somehow, I got the impression that in whole Black City/ancient magisters/darkspawn shenanigans there are no females, except for Andraste... and Andraste's like Jesus, too pure. Ah, I wish Mr. Gaider or any story designer from BW actually takes notice of this and gives a valid answer. So far, the whole Maker left and men is to be blamed is actually male centered, and even I'm glad there's no 'Lilith/Eve' archetype, I would really like to know were only males responsible (if Chantry's story is true one about Old Gods and magisters)... and if not, what happened to female magisters... how did the idea of broodmothers came to be.

[esper]

Nimrodell wrote...

In almost every religion, basic story, usually females are guilty for men's fall from grace (ofc, there are exceptions), may it be Asherah, Lilith, or Eve or even Izanami... but here, somehow, I got the impression that in whole Black City/ancient magisters/darkspawn shenanigans there are no females, except for Andraste... and Andraste's like Jesus, too pure. Ah, I wish Mr. Gaider or any story designer from BW actually takes notice of this and gives a valid answer. So far, the whole Maker left and men is to be blamed is actually male centered, and even I'm glad there's no 'Lilith/Eve' archetype, I would really like to know were only males responsible (if Chantry's story is true one about Old Gods and magisters)... and if not, what happened to female magisters... how did the idea of broodmothers came to be.

Actually I can't help, but think that Thedas (the non-qunari) lands is leaning a bit towards a matriachish region. Mostly because women holds the power of the dominent religion. (Men cannot advance beyound brother I think). 
But I actually like that its the Jean'd'arc archetype that gets revered. It is interesting...
Don't care much for the Maker though.
I am not sure how aware Bioware is of this though...

[Nimrodell]

Not sure either, and as I see, BSN don't know anything about this... so far, darkspawn are male-centered especially 'cause the broodmothers are ghouls, tho I have my doubts on Mother. Saying doubts, 'cause she's miserable in her 'awakened' state... hell, if I gone through all those females gone through, I would be crazy too and wishing for no free will state, same as Mother. But yet again, I can't buy the story that is mono-gendered. Corypheus showed that initial darkspawn actually didn't act as those with only basic instincts... and that's how I started wondering about genders, not it trivial way, mind you. I'm almost sure that BW team didn't even think about it so far. I just wonder what would happen to a ancient female magister in fall from grace Golden City story... if that one is actually true. The Mother made me wonder during Awakening and after Corypheus and still male models of darkspawn, it just made me wonder, why there are none female model darkspawns if broodmothers are that simple.

I could give perfect explanation on real life religions and their stance on this question... but here, I can't, 'cause it's not finished yet... and I would be able to provide perfect explanation (if it were up to me, and majority cared), but we actually didn't get any so far... 'tis again like our own history 'til 20th century. Isabela or not, female Warden or not, still, no one pays a heed on what actually happened. Things are still taken for granted.

[SkittlesKat96]

Flemeth could be a magister...maybe Flemeth has some plans for the Darkspawn or something. Or maybe the Tevinters were sexist (doubt it), or maybe we just haven't seen any yet.

[maxernst]

I can't imagine why there wouldn't have been. Perhaps they were the original Brood Mother's. I don't see any reason to think Tevinter society is greatly more sex-differentiated than the rest of Thedas, and women don't have any inherent disadvantage in spellcasting as they do as warriors. Although pre-Andraste maybe it was more sexist--in Haven the religious hierarchy is male-dominated, and Brother Genitivi thinks they might preserve some ancient traditions from the Chantry's earliest days.

I don't think Flemeth's a magister, though. Unless Morrigan is still wrong or lying about her in Witch Hunt when she says "she's not even human." I'm still thinking an elven connection on her.

[AlexXIV]

As far as we know there are no rules that discriminate women in Thedas, in most cases anyway. I have not yet heard that women cannot be magisters (or is it magistresses?) so I think just as possible as male magisters.

[Macropodmum]

 Well there was the story of Aveline which indicates that at least in some instances there was some type of 'women cannot do this' mentality. 

 I have been trying to think back over and it isn't just women who become ghouls ( I think Ruck would fit into this category).  Hespith was displaying the same as Ruck but didn't become a brood mother, therfore one would have to wonder if something more needed to take place for the broodmother transformation to occur (magic possibly). Maybe some females do become darkspawn 

[AlexXIV]

Yeah well I think there are jobs men are simply better suited for. Usually hard, brutal work. Being warrior would qualify as such. I don't see that being an issue with magic. So to not let women gain positions of power in a magic based society doesn't make sense unless there is really heavy prejudice. I mean just imagine, if the most powerful mage is a woman, what kind of prejudice will you actually summon to disqualify her as a leader of mages? That powerful female mages can only be witches in some swamp?

That's what I meant. Also I wouldn't count the Orlesians, because they are obviously everything you don't want a society to be.

[Herr Uhl]

esper wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah, tis just whole DA impression that magisters and darkspawn are male... and I keep wondering about it.

Yeah, I had that impression too, but I don't know from where. I think it is because I for some reasons think of the arch demons as male (don't know why I do that too).

But the fact is that we don't know, it a 100 %.

Because Urthemiel was male according to the stoies. Darkspawn have no gender. This we know 100%.

[Gervaise]

I wonder if perhaps there was some sort of sex distrimination in the past and only men could hold the supreme positions of power. This would account for why the dragon gods are thought of as male even though high dragons are always female. In the Gauntlet it sounds as though the wife of the Archon was the one who really had it in for Andraste and wanted her to suffer. May be it wasn't just that a barbarian ex slave did so but the fact that she was a woman and had therefore attempted to usurpe her proper place in society. Even the story about the reason for Maferath's betrayal may have some basis in the truth in that he lived in a male dominated society and he felt undermined by his wife's leadership of the rebellion. The Orlesian idea that women could not be Chevalier may have been harking back to these earlier times.

The Chantry subsequently reversed this gender discrimination in their own ranks, although this would be understandable if they believed that the Divine and other clergy were in some way the representation of Andraste. However, when the Black Divine took office, he was male and is also the First Enchanter. So it may be that it was not just putting mages back in control of the state that they were reverting to how things were under the original Magisters but also by ensuring the the top person was male.

I wouldn't hold too much store but what Danarius promised Varania since there is no way the human Magisters would ever allow an elf to assume an equal rank to them and Hadrianna was his apprentice, and there is no evidence she would have been promoted to Magister either. The Magisters are the ruling elite in Tevinter and just because there is meant to be gender equality in Thedas society, that doesn't necessarily mean that they adhere to this rule. After all devotees of Andraste and the Chant of Light are meant to treat all people equally but clearly the ruling elite in most countries do not.

[Nimrodell]

Herr Uhl wrote...

esper wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah, tis just whole DA impression that magisters and darkspawn are male... and I keep wondering about it.

Yeah, I had that impression too, but I don't know from where. I think it is because I for some reasons think of the arch demons as male (don't know why I do that too).

But the fact is that we don't know, it a 100 %.

Because Urthemiel was male according to the stoies. Darkspawn have no gender. This we know 100%.

Well, if we look at Hespith's chant, the verse about eight day I always understood that Laryn was raped by darkspawn... English is not my mother tongue, but in the context of that chant that describes how one mutates, it seems like proper interpretation:

"First day, they come and catch everyone.
Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat.
Third day, the men are gnawed on again.
Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.
Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn.
Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.
Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.
Eigth day, we hated as she is violated.
Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin.
Now she does feast, as she's become the beast."

@Gervaise: Yes, I thought about it too - though nothing goes against what's Varania claiming - Feynriel also left for Tevinter and as we saw in one of outcomes, he becomes truly powerful somniari under tutorship of another magister. But there's also Lady Vasilia, archon Hessarian's wife - and she had power, she was one to decide how Andraste will die. Also, during the exchange for Koslun's book, female mage is actually superior to other to male mages.

Edit: typo.

Modifié par Nimrodell, 20 novembre 2011 - 12:58 .

[esper]

Herr Uhl wrote...

esper wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah, tis just whole DA impression that magisters and darkspawn are male... and I keep wondering about it.

Yeah, I had that impression too, but I don't know from where. I think it is because I for some reasons think of the arch demons as male (don't know why I do that too).

But the fact is that we don't know, it a 100 %.

Because Urthemiel was male according to the stoies. Darkspawn have no gender. This we know 100%.

You know what, that is proberly why.
I thought that all darkspawn was male (with the exeption of brood mothers - who are some kind of ghouls) and it was demons that were genderless or capable of shifting gender since they can shift their body form at will.

[esper]

Gervaise wrote...

I wonder if perhaps there was some sort of sex distrimination in the past and only men could hold the supreme positions of power. This would account for why the dragon gods are thought of as male even though high dragons are always female. In the Gauntlet it sounds as though the wife of the Archon was the one who really had it in for Andraste and wanted her to suffer. May be it wasn't just that a barbarian ex slave did so but the fact that she was a woman and had therefore attempted to usurpe her proper place in society. Even the story about the reason for Maferath's betrayal may have some basis in the truth in that he lived in a male dominated society and he felt undermined by his wife's leadership of the rebellion. The Orlesian idea that women could not be Chevalier may have been harking back to these earlier times.

The Chantry subsequently reversed this gender discrimination in their own ranks, although this would be understandable if they believed that the Divine and other clergy were in some way the representation of Andraste. However, when the Black Divine took office, he was male and is also the First Enchanter. So it may be that it was not just putting mages back in control of the state that they were reverting to how things were under the original Magisters but also by ensuring the the top person was male.

I wouldn't hold too much store but what Danarius promised Varania since there is no way the human Magisters would ever allow an elf to assume an equal rank to them and Hadrianna was his apprentice, and there is no evidence she would have been promoted to Magister either. The Magisters are the ruling elite in Tevinter and just because there is meant to be gender equality in Thedas society, that doesn't necessarily mean that they adhere to this rule. After all devotees of Andraste and the Chant of Light are meant to treat all people equally but clearly the ruling elite in most countries do not.

Actually I am not so sure that Tevinter discriminates against elves in the same way as the other countries does. Fenriyel was shipped as a human mage slave so humans are slaves as well. Varienna obvoisuly thought she had a shot at becoming a magister (also apprienctence to a magister is obviosuly a step up from seamstress) since she tells Fenris this after Danerious's dead. If he had blackmailed Varienna into selling out Fenris then she could have told Fenris that after Danerius are dead. Also there is the elven mercenary in origins that have zero problem with selling out the alienage elves to slaveri.
I do think most slaves are elves because it is easier for slavers to kidnap the poor alienage elves who mostly have no legal protection, but I am not sure that no elf can hold a position of some importance in Tevinter - provided that they are ruthless, powerfull and properly good a blood magic as well.

Modifié par esper, 20 novembre 2011 - 01:38 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I think it's possible that some of the original magisters may have been female, though we would have to wait to see if we encounter more for definitive proof. In the very least, I don't think that there is any reason why a female magister could *not* have been at the invasion into Rotten Twinkie City. Were the straws drawn that way? Perhaps...it could be that female magisters may have participated in the ritual, but 5 male magisters lead the charge, so to speak.

We don't know how the Taint was originally transmitted though - how it actually came to...well, *taint*...the magisters. Speculations abound (I know I have a few) - was the Taint a parasite, was it a curse, was it negative energy/magicks, did the tainting occur when the magisters crossed the threshold to the City or when they finalized the ritual, what did the magisters actually cross over into...etc and so forth. I think when we understand *how* they first became tainted, we might have more clues as to who was there and then how the domino effect spread. If there was a female magister present, did she become the first broodmother, or was she something else, and broodmothers came to follow...that sort of thing.

And, biased of me perhaps, I don't think Flemeth was there at the invasion of the City. I don't think she's a magister, but even if she was, I am not certain that any concentrated form of magic could have spared her from Corypheus's fate. Besides, there are enough characters who believe that she is much more than just a really powerful mage.

[labargegrrrl]

forgive me if i stray, go off topic, take mindless tangents or just type too much stuff.  feel free to ignore me, but please don't.

re: architect
archie actually struck me as quite as a bit of an androgyn and not definitively male in any sense.  coreph, on the other hand...

re: gender roles in general society (excluding TE and the Qun)
i get the general impression that most nations and institutions in Thedas used to have a lot of gender discrimination, but are transitioning away from that.  some countries seem to struggle more with that.  if you take the Human Female Noble Origin from DAO, for instance, you can get a lot of dialogue about the differences between the way that Orlais, Antiva, and Ferelden view women/femininity.  
it seems like the countries who had to oppose Orlais the most are the most egalitarian (Ferelden, Free Marches).  perhaps because female warriors became a necessity, but maybe also because it seemed to tick the Orlesians off a bit.  Orlais and Antiva seem to still prefer that women stick to the traditionally female, even if they don't have any rules enforcing that.  but there's also some residual sexism left over in other nations (the lines "I didn't think they made women Grey Wardens?" or "Mind your tongue woman!" come to mind) it's like a weird philosophical overlay of a quasi-midevil world with postmodern feminism, but blended VERY well.  i think that it's a wonderful effort on bioware's part to make the game feel real to us.
i also get the overall impression, if you play from Origins to Awakenings to DA2 that the Templars have only recently opened up to women.  in the DAA party banter, Anders will actually state that they only recently started making female Templars.  (this would also explain the HUGE chip on the shoulders of a lot of female Templars...Rylock, Meridith, etc.)

re: gender roles in TE
i get the impression that the TE isn't exactly egalitarian.  women are legally allowed to do a lot, but since when do the Magisters actually pay much attention to the rules?  if you dig deep enough into codexes, you find out that things that are routinely practiced up there are technically against the law.  and we know they put the spin on the Chant.  plus, their Chantry and Circle, both of which are pretty much intertwined with the Archon and Imperial Court, are both male dominated.  and every mention of the Archon and most Magisters are in the masculine.  you run into Hadriana, of course, but if you talk to that slave chick once she's at the Hawke estate (sorry I can't ever remember her name) she'll actually talk about how she felt sorry for Hadriana because none of the other Magisters took her seriously, etc.  doesn't say it's because she's female, but i always got the impression that had something to do with it.  also, Fenris talks about her being a "social climber" and all that, i get the impression that she's really trying hard to gain status she wouldn't normally have.  Varrania i don't take seriously because i don't think for one second that Danarius actually had any intension of training her at all.  plus, she just seemed generally desperate.  as for the Tevintir chick in the qunari situation when you're trying to get the relic, the game pegs her as "Tevintir Enchanter"  Not exactly a ranking position.  And you also get the impression that the whole exchange is so shady, that high officials aren't likely involved.
and if the current TE is unofficially and culturally sexist, even though it's not a given, how much worse was the old TE?  it's hard to say, given that you don't run into a lot of info.  but i always got the impression from things like the ghosts in the sacred ashes quest and that creepy statue lady in the Ferelden Circle, that there was some kind of gender segregation, even in the practice of magic.  maybe certain kinds of magic were seen as feminine and others masculine?  hard to say, and mostly speculation, but i think that it's easy to infer that the most powerful magisters in the ancient TE were likely male.  and if you want to trespass the golden city, you'd better be pretty freaking powerful!

re: mages more egalitarian?
really?  name a female first enchanter.  seriously.  in the games, the books, anywhere.  and aren't most senior or ranking enchanters in the circles we've seen male?  i can only think of two exceptions.  Bethany and Wynn.  Ines, if you stretch things.  granted, magic seems like it should be more egalitarian.  you don't need physical strength to cast a spell as much as you need willpower.  you don't need to be able to tank your opponent over.  so there's no bio-sex advantage.  but it's just a stretch to say that people will be automatically egalitarian on that basis alone.  let's not forget how much sexism has, can and will exist in scholarly institutions.  

re: fall from grace
i hate to spoil the general impression that monotheism blames chicks, but i think that Lucifer, the devil, the serpant, etc. are all portrayed as masculine if not outright male.  and they're the evil responsible for the fall from grace in Abramic faiths.  they don't tempt eve, nothing bad happens.  (in fact, i dig eve as a fall from grace character because she only fell for questioning the satus quo and wanting more knowledge.  she's a personal freaking hero of mine.  but that's neither here nor there.)
and i don't think the magisters and blights are much different from Lucifer's fall and all of that.  it's still the same story of an evil and at least somewhat masculine force rebelling against the kind father creator, etc.  not that different a phenom when you get down to it.   just dudes fighting and dragging chicks into it like they're not that important in the overall spiritual power play.

re: andraste
andraste's story sounds more like Joan of Arc combined with the Holy Virgin Mary.  (married to the maker, refuses other men, goes to war because of songs and visions, gets burned at the stake, gets taken up to heaven and crowned queen of the place.)  not Jesus.  just sayin'

re: gender in the chantry
the fact that the Chantry is female dominated is a) freaking awesome! and extra awesome in the fact that bioware shows that it doesn't make the Chantry a better religion in their world than a male dominated religion is in ours.  way to own up!
that being said, most Chantry priests (with the exception of the notorious M. Petrice) seem to be the epitome of the victorian "female angel" archetype.  nothing you don't see in male dominated faith all of the freaking time.  way to make us look like wimps.

re:  Flemmeth
she is indeed the fly in the ointment, isn't she?  i don't buy that she was one of the magisters.  the woman is scared of the darkspawn, scared of the blight, and calls it evil.  the trespassing magisters became darkspawn.  they didn't fear them.  and if she's an old god, why is she scared of other old gods?  there's no reason to believe that they held animosity between each other from what i've gathered.

re: archdeamon/darkspawn gender
they're always called "it"  i can't think of any dialogue, cutscene, story tag or party banter in any game or expansion that calls any darkspawn "he" or "she"  if you can think of an exception, pls tell me.  seriously.  i do want to know.
but let's face it, they look like dudes.  other than broodmothers, which are technically ghouls, darkspawn all look like dudes.  kinda.  hurdocks look like clowns in the second game, but dude-ish clowns.
archdeamons look like high dragons.  they're always referred to as "it" but the dragon thing makes them chicks.  unless you take the old god thing into account.  were the old gods gendered?  i don't remember them being gendered.  help on this one pls?




 

Modifié par labargegrrrl, 20 novembre 2011 - 03:27 .

[Gervaise]

Please also try to remember that the writers seem to sometimes use the term Magister and mage interchangeably when really they should not. Everything points to the term Magister referring to the highest elite in Tevinter, which Fenris says come from old established families who probably regard themselves as divinely entitled in much the same way as the nobles do in Orlais. The top Magister is the First Enchanter, who also now holds the post of Black Divine. To date, no Magister mentioned in codexes or in game has been female. The wife of the Archon need not be a Magister to have influence on him and to encourage other high ranking officials in the same way. (Think of Livia and the Emperor Augustus in I Claudius). In our own world Chief Concubine could often give you more power through your access to the Sultan/King than his senior officials, just not openly acknowledged.

As for Varania, she is ambitious, that is clear and willing to sell out her brother for the promise of power but she is also a fool because whilst she might achieve some status as a mage working for Danarius, there is no way she could ever aspire to being a Magister because she has the wrong background for it. Even if he was of a mind to try and promote her, there would be all the other ancient human mage families who would object. Danarius used her ambition to manipulate her, just as he probably used Hadrianna in the same way. Feynriel was only half elf and a somniari, which may have helped him advance further than most, but again, in a realm where somniari may not be so rare and powerful blood mages are commonplace, whose magic may help protect against him, it is highly unlikely that he would reach the highest rank.

[Nimrodell]

re: fall from grace
i hate to spoil the general impression that monotheism blames chicks, but i think that Lucifer, the devil, the serpant, etc. are all portrayed as masculine if not outright male. and they're the evil responsible for the fall from grace in Abramic faiths. they don't tempt eve, nothing bad happens. (in fact, i dig eve as a fall from grace character because she only fell for questioning the satus quo and wanting more knowledge. she's a personal freaking hero of mine. but that's neither here nor there.)
and i don't think the magisters and blights are much different from Lucifer's fall and all of that. it's still the same story of an evil and at least somewhat masculine force rebelling against the kind father creator, etc. not that different a phenom when you get down to it. just dudes fighting and dragging chicks into it like they're not that important in the overall spiritual power play.

Lucifer as all other archangels and angels are seen genderless in many interpretations, even though it's hard to actually hard to bite that older point of view (and here is good text on that topic. That's the reason why I asked if darkspawn have any gender, even tho they look masculine in appearance and as I said before, there's that Hespith verse on them violating Laryn. So when it comes to humans, their fall from grace is called the Eastern Sin and it portrays Eve as guilty one and of course, Eve is punished heavily for it (the way females give birth - the pain) and she and her progeny is subservient to males (and it's not 'cause she was made from Adam's rib, actually she is third Adam's companion and 'till Tree of Knowledge they were equals, but that's another story). Of course, serpent lost its legs and became mortal enemy of human race (like in so many other myths), but for many hundreds of years, female is the one marked as sin bringer to her own kind.

Edit: messed up link.

Modifié par Nimrodell, 20 novembre 2011 - 04:37 .

[TEWR]

Macropodmum wrote...

 Well there was the story of Aveline which indicates that at least in some instances there was some type of 'women cannot do this' mentality. 

 I have been trying to think back over and it isn't just women who become ghouls ( I think Ruck would fit into this category).  Hespith was displaying the same as Ruck but didn't become a brood mother, therfore one would have to wonder if something more needed to take place for the broodmother transformation to occur (magic possibly). Maybe some females do become darkspawn 

Hespith was actually just holding on to her Dwarven form through her own willpower, which the poem helped her. She makes it clear that she won't become a broodmother, so I imagine she chose agonizing pain over becoming a bloated creature.

While the Darkspawn did everything to her that would make her become a broodmother, she proved to be able to retain her Dwarven form for who knows how long.

[erilben]

labargegrrrl wrote...

re: mages more egalitarian?
really?  name a female first enchanter.  seriously.  in the games, the books, anywhere.  and aren't most senior or ranking enchanters in the circles we've seen male?  i can only think of two exceptions.  Bethany and Wynn.  Ines,

 

There's female First Enchanters mentioned in codex entries like Illana and Casimira. The Ferelden Circle wanted Wynne as First Enchanter, but she refused. 

I doubt Bethany is a Senior Enchanter. She hasn't been in the Circle very long. Ines is likely a Senior Enchanter though because she was going to the Cumberland meeting. Another female Senior Enchanter is Leorah. There is only 3 others known to be Senior Enchanters (Uldred, Sweeney and Torrin). Assuming Ines is a Senior Enchanter, half of Origins Senior Enchanters are women.

[Nimrodell]

Ah, just remembered to mention this too, when it comes to referring by using third person pronouns that make distinction between genders in English. First disciple we meet refers to Warden as 'it' same as The Lost will do or the Messenger but also, The First will show knowledge and understanding of genders, 'cause he or it will refer to Mother as 'she'. Why disciples do that? I guess in this case it's just economy in recording voice-overs or perhaps since they are genderless (even though they have masculine figures and voices) they don't understand the basic distinction between genders since they don't possess it in their own kind.

The situation gets even more complicated if we use translations into other languages that actually make distinction between genders while using verbs, adjectives, numbers and nouns (like Latin, or Slavic languages). Then it is clear that those darkspawn names will get translated as masculine nouns, like The First (Prvi instead of feminine Prva or neutral Prvo), The Lost (m.n. Izgubljeni instead of f.n. Izgubljena or n.n. Izgubljeno, etc.). So, it gets more complicated to view them as genderless while using different languages (I haven't found official translations, but all people I know from my country that played DA series will actually refer to them as males using masculine versions of nouns).

[TEWR]

in the DAA party banter, Anders will actually state that they only recently started making female Templars. (this would also explain the HUGE chip on the shoulders of a lot of female Templars...Rylock, Meridith, etc.)

I don't remember him saying female Templars are a recent thing. I always took that to mean that Ferelden's Circle began recruiting female Templars, and not the Order in general.

really? name a female first enchanter. seriously. in the games, the books, anywhere. and aren't most senior or ranking enchanters in the circles we've seen male? i can only think of two exceptions. Bethany and Wynn. Ines, if you stretch things. granted, magic seems like it should be more egalitarian. you don't need physical strength to cast a spell as much as you need willpower. you don't need to be able to tank your opponent over. so there's no bio-sex advantage. but it's just a stretch to say that people will be automatically egalitarian on that basis alone. let's not forget how much sexism has, can and will exist in scholarly institutions.

Wynne can move from being a Senior Enchanter to a First Enchanter and the First Enchanter before Orsino was a woman.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 novembre 2011 - 05:39 .