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[maxernst]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

in the DAA party banter, Anders will actually state that they only recently started making female Templars. (this would also explain the HUGE chip on the shoulders of a lot of female Templars...Rylock, Meridith, etc.)

I don't remember him saying female Templars are a recent thing. I always took that to mean that Ferelden's Circle began recruiting female Templars, and not the Order in general.

really? name a female first enchanter. seriously. in the games, the books, anywhere. and aren't most senior or ranking enchanters in the circles we've seen male? i can only think of two exceptions. Bethany and Wynn. Ines, if you stretch things. granted, magic seems like it should be more egalitarian. you don't need physical strength to cast a spell as much as you need willpower. you don't need to be able to tank your opponent over. so there's no bio-sex advantage. but it's just a stretch to say that people will be automatically egalitarian on that basis alone. let's not forget how much sexism has, can and will exist in scholarly institutions.

Wynne can move from being a Senior Enchanter to a First Enchanter and the First Enchanter before Orsino was a woman.

There sure aren't very many female Templars.  Until DA:A, I thought that
men served the Chantry as Templars and women as sisters.  I still feel
that Tevinter society sounds so survival-of-the-fittest that at least a few
women would break through to the elite, even if women were theoretically not supposed to be magisters.  In our world, women weren't really supposed to rule or lead armies in medieval times, but it occasionally happened.

I do think that there are some indications (the Avelline story) that pre-Andrastean Thedan society might have had sharper gender roles, but we don't really know enough to say for sure.  I don't see any clear indication that gender matters for mages in modern Thedas but clearly more military organizations (Templars and Wardens) are male-dominated...whch makes sense because women are at a disadvantage physically but not magically.

[esper]

maxernst wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

in the DAA party banter, Anders will actually state that they only recently started making female Templars. (this would also explain the HUGE chip on the shoulders of a lot of female Templars...Rylock, Meridith, etc.)

I don't remember him saying female Templars are a recent thing. I always took that to mean that Ferelden's Circle began recruiting female Templars, and not the Order in general.

really? name a female first enchanter. seriously. in the games, the books, anywhere. and aren't most senior or ranking enchanters in the circles we've seen male? i can only think of two exceptions. Bethany and Wynn. Ines, if you stretch things. granted, magic seems like it should be more egalitarian. you don't need physical strength to cast a spell as much as you need willpower. you don't need to be able to tank your opponent over. so there's no bio-sex advantage. but it's just a stretch to say that people will be automatically egalitarian on that basis alone. let's not forget how much sexism has, can and will exist in scholarly institutions.

Wynne can move from being a Senior Enchanter to a First Enchanter and the First Enchanter before Orsino was a woman.

There sure aren't very many female Templars.  Until DA:A, I thought that
men served the Chantry as Templars and women as sisters.  I still feel
that Tevinter society sounds so survival-of-the-fittest that at least a few
women would break through to the elite, even if women were theoretically not supposed to be magisters.  In our world, women weren't really supposed to rule or lead armies in medieval times, but it occasionally happened.

I do think that there are some indications (the Avelline story) that pre-Andrastean Thedan society might have had sharper gender roles, but we don't really know enough to say for sure.  I don't see any clear indication that gender matters for mages in modern Thedas but clearly more military organizations (Templars and Wardens) are male-dominated...whch makes sense because women are at a disadvantage physically but not magically.

I can think of at least three female templars in Kirkwall, four with Meridith.

[maxernst]

esper wrote...

maxernst wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

in the DAA party banter, Anders will actually state that they only recently started making female Templars. (this would also explain the HUGE chip on the shoulders of a lot of female Templars...Rylock, Meridith, etc.)

I don't remember him saying female Templars are a recent thing. I always took that to mean that Ferelden's Circle began recruiting female Templars, and not the Order in general.

really? name a female first enchanter. seriously. in the games, the books, anywhere. and aren't most senior or ranking enchanters in the circles we've seen male? i can only think of two exceptions. Bethany and Wynn. Ines, if you stretch things. granted, magic seems like it should be more egalitarian. you don't need physical strength to cast a spell as much as you need willpower. you don't need to be able to tank your opponent over. so there's no bio-sex advantage. but it's just a stretch to say that people will be automatically egalitarian on that basis alone. let's not forget how much sexism has, can and will exist in scholarly institutions.

Wynne can move from being a Senior Enchanter to a First Enchanter and the First Enchanter before Orsino was a woman.

There sure aren't very many female Templars.  Until DA:A, I thought that
men served the Chantry as Templars and women as sisters.  I still feel
that Tevinter society sounds so survival-of-the-fittest that at least a few
women would break through to the elite, even if women were theoretically not supposed to be magisters.  In our world, women weren't really supposed to rule or lead armies in medieval times, but it occasionally happened.

I do think that there are some indications (the Avelline story) that pre-Andrastean Thedan society might have had sharper gender roles, but we don't really know enough to say for sure.  I don't see any clear indication that gender matters for mages in modern Thedas but clearly more military organizations (Templars and Wardens) are male-dominated...whch makes sense because women are at a disadvantage physically but not magically.

I can think of at least three female templars in Kirkwall, four with Meridith.

Four isn't very many.  There are a number of battles where we fight a dozen Templars or more.  Maybe I'm just not noticing, but I don't remember a lot of women in those battles.  And i don''t recall any at all in DA:O.  The guards are mostly men too.

Modifié par maxernst, 20 novembre 2011 - 06:32 .

[TEWR]

maxernst wrote...

There sure aren't very many female Templars.  Until DA:A, I thought that men served the Chantry as Templars and women as sisters.  I still feel  that Tevinter society sounds so survival-of-the-fittest that at least a few  women would break through to the elite, even if women were theoretically not supposed to be magisters.  In our world, women weren't really supposed to rule or lead armies in medieval times, but it occasionally happened.

There's Rylock, Meredith, the woman hunting Feynriel, the woman who wants to avenge Kerras, the one who runs to check on lyriumized Meredith at the end, the Templar woman that walks around the Gallows, the woman who stands against Ser Mettin, and I think if you paused the game during Templar fights some of the mook Templars have female bodies.

And if you count specializations, Mhairi could be a Templar as could a Female Warden/Female Hawke.

[esper]

maxernst wrote...

esper wrote...

maxernst wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

in the DAA party banter, Anders will actually state that they only recently started making female Templars. (this would also explain the HUGE chip on the shoulders of a lot of female Templars...Rylock, Meridith, etc.)

I don't remember him saying female Templars are a recent thing. I always took that to mean that Ferelden's Circle began recruiting female Templars, and not the Order in general.

really? name a female first enchanter. seriously. in the games, the books, anywhere. and aren't most senior or ranking enchanters in the circles we've seen male? i can only think of two exceptions. Bethany and Wynn. Ines, if you stretch things. granted, magic seems like it should be more egalitarian. you don't need physical strength to cast a spell as much as you need willpower. you don't need to be able to tank your opponent over. so there's no bio-sex advantage. but it's just a stretch to say that people will be automatically egalitarian on that basis alone. let's not forget how much sexism has, can and will exist in scholarly institutions.

Wynne can move from being a Senior Enchanter to a First Enchanter and the First Enchanter before Orsino was a woman.

There sure aren't very many female Templars.  Until DA:A, I thought that
men served the Chantry as Templars and women as sisters.  I still feel
that Tevinter society sounds so survival-of-the-fittest that at least a few
women would break through to the elite, even if women were theoretically not supposed to be magisters.  In our world, women weren't really supposed to rule or lead armies in medieval times, but it occasionally happened.

I do think that there are some indications (the Avelline story) that pre-Andrastean Thedan society might have had sharper gender roles, but we don't really know enough to say for sure.  I don't see any clear indication that gender matters for mages in modern Thedas but clearly more military organizations (Templars and Wardens) are male-dominated...whch makes sense because women are at a disadvantage physically but not magically.

I can think of at least three female templars in Kirkwall, four with Meridith.

Four isn't very many.  There are a number of battles where we fight a dozen Templars or more.  Maybe I'm just not noticing, but I don't remember a lot of women in those battles.  And i don''t recall any at all in DA:O.  The guards are mostly men too.

I think in da:o it comes down to the same as female dwarves... They exist, . The four was named females, compared to how many named males it goes almost equally up. If you look around at the templars in the end scene of the games you will see a good amount of generic females amongst them. In fact the templar how checks up on statue meridith is female.

[maxernst]

There are a lot more than four named male Templars. Just off the top of my head, there's Thrask, Cullen, Ulric, Emeric, Kerans, Varnell, and that's only the ones whose names I remember because they had plot relevance. I remember there being a few women (one of the Templar recruits you talk to when looking for Kerans is a woman), but I don't recall any of their names other than Meredith.

Modifié par maxernst, 20 novembre 2011 - 06:52 .

[Nimrodell]

But all this still doesn't give a hint if there were actually ancient female magisters among those who committed the first violation nor what would become of them. And for me, Architect complicates things since he's actually not one of the firsts and still he was born, spawned as free willed darkspawn and now when I think about him... Mother calls him Father, thus naming his gender if there were any doubts before. Even we refer to him as 'he' not 'it'. We saw what happened to Corypheus, but what might happen to a female?

[Gervaise]

Not denying that women can be First Enchanter in the Thedas Circles under the control of the Chantry but in Tevinter the First Enchanter/Black Divine is male and it is reasonable to assume this was a reversion to some older precedent when they broke away from the Orlesian Chantry. Likewise the Magisters at the top of the pile. If we should hear of a female Magister then this will be disproved but at present there is no evidence of female Magisters and so far all Magisters encountered, whether ancient or modern, are male.

[Gervaise]

Would also point out that the codexes on broodmothers quite clearly differentiates between types on basis of the original race of the mother, and thus there is no need for the original Magister darkspawn to have been anything other than male. If they did not enter the Fade alone but took followers with them, these may have automatically become darkspawn too, or alternatively the taint may have leaked back through the veil.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gervaise wrote...

Not denying that women can be First Enchanter in the Thedas Circles under the control of the Chantry but in Tevinter the First Enchanter/Black Divine is male and it is reasonable to assume this was a reversion to some older precedent when they broke away from the Orlesian Chantry. Likewise the Magisters at the top of the pile. If we should hear of a female Magister then this will be disproved but at present there is no evidence of female Magisters and so far all Magisters encountered, whether ancient or modern, are male.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Enchanter_Illana

Female mages can be promoted to First Enchanter (by the way, that codex entry is further proof of mages being allowed to live outside the Circles).

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 21 novembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

This topic seems like something Xilizhra would have a field day with: finally an opportunity to "rightfully" blame the men of Thedas for everything evil in it.

Then again, she might defend the magisters, just because they were mages...

[Macropodmum]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

And, biased of me perhaps, I don't think Flemeth was there at the invasion of the City. I don't think she's a magister, but even if she was, I am not certain that any concentrated form of magic could have spared her from Corypheus's fate. Besides, there are enough characters who believe that she is much more than just a really powerful mage.

Maybe she was freed and body hopped earlier than Corypheus? While I don't tend to believe she is a magister either (for one the whole attitude to elven peoples), I don't know that we could rule it out just based on the fact she doesn't look like Cory.  For all we know she could be the maker in human form biding time 

[Chun Hei]

My theory is that there were no ancient female magisters during the fall of the Golden City but that the legends told within the Black Divine blame it on female magisters anyway.

Also I remember finding a book in Orzammar that suggests that Andraste was a powerful mage. I wonder if she was a rebel magister.

[Herr Uhl]

Chun Hei wrote...

My theory is that there were no ancient female magisters during the fall of the Golden City but that the legends told within the Black Divine blame it on female magisters anyway.

Where has anything from the black divine been seen that says that there were females fault? And why fabricate that it was?

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

Not denying that women can be First Enchanter in the Thedas Circles under the control of the Chantry but in Tevinter the First Enchanter/Black Divine is male and it is reasonable to assume this was a reversion to some older precedent when they broke away from the Orlesian Chantry. Likewise the Magisters at the top of the pile. If we should hear of a female Magister then this will be disproved but at present there is no evidence of female Magisters and so far all Magisters encountered, whether ancient or modern, are male.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Enchanter_Illana

Female mages can be promoted to First Enchanter (by the way, that codex entry is further proof of mages being allowed to live outside the Circles).

No it's more proof that children of wealthy families and who are found out to be mages are able to get perks the other mages don't get.

The codex makes it clear that the father spent a great deal of coin in order to ensure that she was comfortable there.

In other words, bribery.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 novembre 2011 - 06:07 .

[Nimrodell]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

This topic seems like something Xilizhra would have a field day with: finally an opportunity to "rightfully" blame the men of Thedas for everything evil in it.

Then again, she might defend the magisters, just because they were mages...

Well, I hope it doesn't turn to that . The topic isn't about generalizing things, it's just about something rare and interesting when it comes to stories about hubris of men (human race). Usually, females have some part in overall downfall of humans (even in Gilgamesh, Enkidu will be subjugated by a woman, thus loosing his touch with nature and how he was created or Izanami will speak first instead of Izanagi does having first wrong thing to happen - not going to even start on Judaism or Christianity). But here, there's no sign of females doing anything wrong in grand scheme of plans, if we presume that all ancient magisters were actually males, and it's interesting.

[Nimrodell]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

Not denying that women can be First Enchanter in the Thedas Circles under the control of the Chantry but in Tevinter the First Enchanter/Black Divine is male and it is reasonable to assume this was a reversion to some older precedent when they broke away from the Orlesian Chantry. Likewise the Magisters at the top of the pile. If we should hear of a female Magister then this will be disproved but at present there is no evidence of female Magisters and so far all Magisters encountered, whether ancient or modern, are male.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Enchanter_Illana

Female mages can be promoted to First Enchanter (by the way, that codex entry is further proof of mages being allowed to live outside the Circles).

No it's more proof that children of wealthy families and are found out to be mages are able to get perks the other mages don't get.

The codex makes it clear that the father spent a great deal of coin in order to ensure that she was comfortable there.

In other words, bribery.

You are right. Illana was goverened by her rich father and as we see, she wasn't great for being exceptional First Enchanter and doing something exceptional in terms of arcane arts or knowledge. After all - it is stated that her assistant Hugh was the one who mainly did her duties. It is interesting to see in this codex entry that the accent is put on robes, garments (as it should be, 'cause it is mage bonus set) but also IIlana wasn't even special for making these garments by herself and making them special. The credits actually go to her mother, and those weren't made for the expected purpose (augmenting mage power) but to inspire new direction in Orlesian court fashion.

Edit: misplaced text.

Modifié par Nimrodell, 21 novembre 2011 - 06:06 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

Not denying that women can be First Enchanter in the Thedas Circles under the control of the Chantry but in Tevinter the First Enchanter/Black Divine is male and it is reasonable to assume this was a reversion to some older precedent when they broke away from the Orlesian Chantry. Likewise the Magisters at the top of the pile. If we should hear of a female Magister then this will be disproved but at present there is no evidence of female Magisters and so far all Magisters encountered, whether ancient or modern, are male.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Enchanter_Illana

Female mages can be promoted to First Enchanter (by the way, that codex entry is further proof of mages being allowed to live outside the Circles).

No it's more proof that children of wealthy families and who are found out to be mages are able to get perks the other mages don't get.

The codex makes it clear that the father spent a great deal of coin in order to ensure that she was comfortable there.

In other words, bribery.

Did she, or did she not, get to live outside the Circle. It is a very simple yes or no question. If no, read the entry again, if yes, then it is proof that mages can get to live outside the Circle. It may be through bribery, or extraordinary circumstances, but it doesn't cahnge the fact: she lived outside the Circle.

[SkittlesKat96]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

Not denying that women can be First Enchanter in the Thedas Circles under the control of the Chantry but in Tevinter the First Enchanter/Black Divine is male and it is reasonable to assume this was a reversion to some older precedent when they broke away from the Orlesian Chantry. Likewise the Magisters at the top of the pile. If we should hear of a female Magister then this will be disproved but at present there is no evidence of female Magisters and so far all Magisters encountered, whether ancient or modern, are male.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Enchanter_Illana

Female mages can be promoted to First Enchanter (by the way, that codex entry is further proof of mages being allowed to live outside the Circles).

No it's more proof that children of wealthy families and who are found out to be mages are able to get perks the other mages don't get.

The codex makes it clear that the father spent a great deal of coin in order to ensure that she was comfortable there.

In other words, bribery.

...Isn't it kind of proof of both?

idungeddit

EDIT: Unless this is from a different argument I didn't read from another page or thread or something

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 21 novembre 2011 - 08:25 .

[jamesp81]

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah, tis just whole DA impression that magisters and darkspawn are male... and I keep wondering about it.

Darkspawn ARE male, except for broodmothers, obviously.

[jamesp81]

Gervaise wrote...

Not denying that women can be First Enchanter in the Thedas Circles under the control of the Chantry but in Tevinter the First Enchanter/Black Divine is male and it is reasonable to assume this was a reversion to some older precedent when they broke away from the Orlesian Chantry. Likewise the Magisters at the top of the pile. If we should hear of a female Magister then this will be disproved but at present there is no evidence of female Magisters and so far all Magisters encountered, whether ancient or modern, are male.

Hadriana

Edit: Also, Lady Vasilia, Archon Hessarian's, wife in "ghost" form in the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest.  I'll admit she doesn't claim to be a mage, but I have doubts that the Tevinter Archon would ever marry a non-mage, and she wears mage regalia in that quest.

Modifié par jamesp81, 22 novembre 2011 - 01:18 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

jamesp81 wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah, tis just whole DA impression that magisters and darkspawn are male... and I keep wondering about it.

Darkspawn ARE male, except for broodmothers, obviously.

I don't think Darkspawn can be broken down into genders at all. They are simply Darkspawn.

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah, tis just whole DA impression that magisters and darkspawn are male... and I keep wondering about it.

Darkspawn ARE male, except for broodmothers, obviously.

I don't think Darkspawn can be broken down into genders at all. They are simply Darkspawn.

Didn't one of the devs address this?

[Herr Uhl]

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think Darkspawn can be broken down into genders at all. They are simply Darkspawn.

Didn't one of the devs address this?

As they lack reproduction within the species, I'd say that they're not male or female. It is also debatable whether they're alive.

I like to see them as macroscopic viruses hijacking the reproductive systems of humanoids, kind of akin to how a bacteriophage would act.

[Nimrodell]

But why do they have male statures and why that verse about eighth day about darkspawn violating Laryn? And first darkspawn couldn't be genderless - since they were men, magisters. I know it is said for broodmothers day r ghouls, but The Architect is referred as 'he' and 'Father' by the Mother and obviously she is aware of her gender as well are her disciples. If devs addressed somewhere this issue, I would like to see their explanation if they said that darkspawn are genderless - Corypheus, Architect don't seem genderless and that would mean that ancient magisters lost their gender when they turned into darkspawn even though they kept characteristics of their gender (Corypheus).

And really, to what that Hespith's verse refers to (eighth day one), how to interpret it?
"First day, they come and catch everyone.
Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat.
Third day, the men are all gnawed on again.
Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.
Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn.
Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.
Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.
Eighth day, we hate it as she is violated.
Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin.
Now she does feast, as she's become the beast."