63 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

jamesp81 wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

Not denying that women can be First Enchanter in the Thedas Circles under the control of the Chantry but in Tevinter the First Enchanter/Black Divine is male and it is reasonable to assume this was a reversion to some older precedent when they broke away from the Orlesian Chantry. Likewise the Magisters at the top of the pile. If we should hear of a female Magister then this will be disproved but at present there is no evidence of female Magisters and so far all Magisters encountered, whether ancient or modern, are male.

Hadriana

Edit: Also, Lady Vasilia, Archon Hessarian's, wife in "ghost" form in the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest.  I'll admit she doesn't claim to be a mage, but I have doubts that the Tevinter Archon would ever marry a non-mage, and she wears mage regalia in that quest.

One can be a mage without being a Magister; I don't think any one disputes that there are female mages in Tevinter.  It appears you're correct about Hadriana however, which implies that Magister isn't as high ranking a title as I had thought.  It surprises me that you can have a superior and still be a Magister.  I think there probably were female magisters in ancient Tevinter,but we don't know about any in particular.

[jamesp81]

Herr Uhl wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think Darkspawn can be broken down into genders at all. They are simply Darkspawn.

Didn't one of the devs address this?

As they lack reproduction within the species, I'd say that they're not male or female. It is also debatable whether they're alive.

I like to see them as macroscopic viruses hijacking the reproductive systems of humanoids, kind of akin to how a bacteriophage would act.

I'm wanting to say that one of the devs confirmed that darkspawn are male, but I don't have the quote.  I think it was related to darkspawn raping and pillaging conquered lands, emphasis on the rape part:sick:

Modifié par jamesp81, 22 novembre 2011 - 07:18 .

[jamesp81]

maxernst wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

Not denying that women can be First Enchanter in the Thedas Circles under the control of the Chantry but in Tevinter the First Enchanter/Black Divine is male and it is reasonable to assume this was a reversion to some older precedent when they broke away from the Orlesian Chantry. Likewise the Magisters at the top of the pile. If we should hear of a female Magister then this will be disproved but at present there is no evidence of female Magisters and so far all Magisters encountered, whether ancient or modern, are male.

Hadriana

Edit: Also, Lady Vasilia, Archon Hessarian's, wife in "ghost" form in the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest.  I'll admit she doesn't claim to be a mage, but I have doubts that the Tevinter Archon would ever marry a non-mage, and she wears mage regalia in that quest.

One can be a mage without being a Magister; I don't think any one disputes that there are female mages in Tevinter.  It appears you're correct about Hadriana however, which implies that Magister isn't as high ranking a title as I had thought.  It surprises me that you can have a superior and still be a Magister.  I think there probably were female magisters in ancient Tevinter,but we don't know about any in particular.

Politics being what it is, being married to the Tevinter Archon almost certainly makes said person a magister by default.

[Nimrodell]

jamesp81 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think Darkspawn can be broken down into genders at all. They are simply Darkspawn.

Didn't one of the devs address this?

As they lack reproduction within the species, I'd say that they're not male or female. It is also debatable whether they're alive.

I like to see them as macroscopic viruses hijacking the reproductive systems of humanoids, kind of akin to how a bacteriophage would act.

I'm wanting to say that one of the devs confirmed that darkspawn are male, but I don't have the quote.  I think it was related to darkspawn raping and pillaging conquered lands, emphasis on the rape part:sick:

Ah thanks, so I was correct in interpretation of that Hespith's verse about what happened to Laryn on the eighth day.

[Chun Hei]

But Hespith described the rape as being impregnated by Darkspawn vomiting into the woman's mouth if I remember it right. Not sure if that makes things better. Especially if she became a brood mother.

*Shudder.*

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Considering how gruesome the process of turning into a broodmother, "she is violated" could mean any number of things.

[Herr Uhl]

jamesp81 wrote...

I'm wanting to say that one of the devs confirmed that darkspawn are male, but I don't have the quote.  I think it was related to darkspawn raping and pillaging conquered lands, emphasis on the rape part:sick:

Maybe that was Orlesians. I've not heard of any dev saying that about darkspawn though.

*curses the lack of dragonagecentrals*

[maxernst]

jamesp81 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm wanting to say that one of the devs confirmed that darkspawn are male, but I don't have the quote.  I think it was related to darkspawn raping and pillaging conquered lands, emphasis on the rape part:sick:

Eeewww...I wonder if they've been reading R. Scott Bakker as well as Gerorge R.R. Martin.  Bakker's sranc are probably the most repellant orc-equivalent I've encountered in fantasy writing.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Did she, or did she not, get to live outside the Circle. It is a very simple yes or no question. If no, read the entry again, if yes, then it is proof that mages can get to live outside the Circle. It may be through bribery, or extraordinary circumstances, but it doesn't cahnge the fact: she lived outside the Circle.

I only have one hand that's fully able to type while my other only has 3 non-injured fingers, so I may make some grammar mistakes in my response to you:

Yes she got to live outside of the Circle, but she -- and all the other mages that got to live outside the Circle -- only get to do so due to the applied influence that wealth can grant or an extraordinary circumstance.

So no, mages don't get to live outside the Circle. They get to live outside the Circle if luck should favor them with wealth or fortune.

Name one mage that got to live outside the Circle by the Circle and Chantry's own kindness that wasn't due to a wealthy relative/extraordinary circumstance.

Huh... not as many as I thought.

[labargegrrrl]

ty for all the corrections...it's tough to keep some of the lore pieced together in memory.

re: gender and language pronouns
i hadn't considered it as much as i probably should have. most languages seem to have a gender neutral pronouns even if some seldom use them. but from what little i do remember of my language courses back in school, it seems like it would be hard to discern a gender-neutrality (parallel to the english "it" or even "they") in a few languages, so darkspawn or unnamed magisters might just end up called "he" or a masculine plural "they" by default. don't know if that would make the conceptualization of gender-neutrality any harder though.

re: eve's fall from grace
meh. i'd be willing to buy the whole god/deamons in abramic faiths as gender neutral theory if it weren't for the fact that they've so rarely been portrayed as andorgyns in any real sense. and even if they've always lacked sex, that doesn't necessarily make them lacking in gender. but, then you're getting into the whole can of worms about what actually defines male vs. female, so there you go. and even if the whole result of the fall from grace ended up in the whole subservience thing, that was a consequence of the narrative rather than the narrative itself. eve didn't fall because she was subservient, she just got stuck with that because she wasn't to start with. she was a rebel. not saying the overall theme of the story isn't sexist, just saying it's not that far a cry from what bioware sold us with the magisters.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

Not denying that women can be First Enchanter in the Thedas Circles under the control of the Chantry but in Tevinter the First Enchanter/Black Divine is male and it is reasonable to assume this was a reversion to some older precedent when they broke away from the Orlesian Chantry. Likewise the Magisters at the top of the pile. If we should hear of a female Magister then this will be disproved but at present there is no evidence of female Magisters and so far all Magisters encountered, whether ancient or modern, are male.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Enchanter_Illana

Female mages can be promoted to First Enchanter (by the way, that codex entry is further proof of mages being allowed to live outside the Circles).

No it's more proof that children of wealthy families and who are found out to be mages are able to get perks the other mages don't get.

The codex makes it clear that the father spent a great deal of coin in order to ensure that she was comfortable there.

In other words, bribery.

Did she, or did she not, get to live outside the Circle. It is a very simple yes or no question. If no, read the entry again, if yes, then it is proof that mages can get to live outside the Circle. It may be through bribery, or extraordinary circumstances, but it doesn't cahnge the fact: she lived outside the Circle.

Way to oversimplify.

If her family is paying to get her special privileges that can't be earned by other mages, then it's not the least bit relevant. All it does is provide further evidence for the corruption inherent to the Circle system.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 novembre 2011 - 07:52 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is quite simple. Some mages get to live outside the Circle with the full knowledge of the Chantry (sometimes even their blessing). Most mages don't get to, but one of the major gripes for the anti-Circle crowd, is that the mages had no hope of ever changing their lot, which is obviously wrong, since they CAN change their lot, if they accumulate enough wealth and/or influence.

(and we are on the internet, so don't worry about gramma  )

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 23 novembre 2011 - 02:05 .

[Gervaise]

I must admit I'm with the people who say that just because the daughter of a wealthy and influential Orlesian got to live outside the Circle is not evidence that mages generally have any hope of doing so under the current system. What it does emphasise is that there is one rule for the nobles, at least in Orlais and those Circles most heavily influenced by them, and another for the peasants and elves.

I actually think it makes the system far worse that someone who has a rich daddy can pick and choose which templars oversee them, can bribe their way to the position of First Enchanter and then retire to live in comfortable seclusion outside the Circle. The First Enchanter is meant to be there to represent the interests of the other mages - clearly Illana was more concerned with Orlesian fashion and ensuring her own comfort.

It also helps to explain a lot of things in Kirkwall. Why Meredith will listen to the pleas of a noble over his son even though his wife gave him money when he was on the run but will send her hit squad to punish the poor family who helped their apostate relative. Why Lenadra is able to get access to Bethany in the Circle, she is allowed to correspond with those outside and seems to be able to escape the attentions of the worst of the Templars, whereas others are forbidden outside contact, those taking messages on their behalf are punished and they are able to be "experimented" on by monster like Alric without any action being taken to prevent it.

It all comes down to whether your family is noble and has money, or whether you are poor or already a persecuted minority. I had thought that having an elven First Enchanter at least demonstrated that Circles do not exhibit racial bias but since no one particularly wanted the job of First Enchanter of Kirkwall, probably Orsino only got it because those with connections would regard it as a poisoned chalice and would do their best to ensure not only that they did not get the job but they got transferred out of Kirkwall at the earliest opportunity.

I once questioned why, if the Circle system was so bad, it had not seriously been challenged in the previous 1,000 years (except in Ferelden). Clearly the reason why the system has survived so long is exactly because nobles can ensure that their children get better treatment if they surrender them to the Circle and if they do hide them from the authorities, once discovered a simple bribe probably ensures that no further action is taken against the family concerned, and the child probably still gets better treatment than others in the Circle. By contrast Anders family, and those like him, were probably poor peasants and so he got dragged away to his mother's screams and never saw or had contact with them again.

[labargegrrrl]

Gervaise wrote...

I must admit I'm with the people who say that just because the daughter of a wealthy and influential Orlesian got to live outside the Circle is not evidence that mages generally have any hope of doing so under the current system. What it does emphasise is that there is one rule for the nobles, at least in Orlais and those Circles most heavily influenced by them, and another for the peasants and elves.

I actually think it makes the system far worse that someone who has a rich daddy can pick and choose which templars oversee them, can bribe their way to the position of First Enchanter and then retire to live in comfortable seclusion outside the Circle. The First Enchanter is meant to be there to represent the interests of the other mages - clearly Illana was more concerned with Orlesian fashion and ensuring her own comfort.

It also helps to explain a lot of things in Kirkwall. Why Meredith will listen to the pleas of a noble over his son even though his wife gave him money when he was on the run but will send her hit squad to punish the poor family who helped their apostate relative. Why Lenadra is able to get access to Bethany in the Circle, she is allowed to correspond with those outside and seems to be able to escape the attentions of the worst of the Templars, whereas others are forbidden outside contact, those taking messages on their behalf are punished and they are able to be "experimented" on by monster like Alric without any action being taken to prevent it.

It all comes down to whether your family is noble and has money, or whether you are poor or already a persecuted minority. I had thought that having an elven First Enchanter at least demonstrated that Circles do not exhibit racial bias but since no one particularly wanted the job of First Enchanter of Kirkwall, probably Orsino only got it because those with connections would regard it as a poisoned chalice and would do their best to ensure not only that they did not get the job but they got transferred out of Kirkwall at the earliest opportunity.

I once questioned why, if the Circle system was so bad, it had not seriously been challenged in the previous 1,000 years (except in Ferelden). Clearly the reason why the system has survived so long is exactly because nobles can ensure that their children get better treatment if they surrender them to the Circle and if they do hide them from the authorities, once discovered a simple bribe probably ensures that no further action is taken against the family concerned, and the child probably still gets better treatment than others in the Circle. By contrast Anders family, and those like him, were probably poor peasants and so he got dragged away to his mother's screams and never saw or had contact with them again.

Just so you have further evidence, don't forget the fact that magehawkes get to basically walk around scot free after the whole Deap Roads expedition pays off and espcially once they become Champions.