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Morality, ideology and why people support Cerberus (long)


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#1
Ieldra

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In this thread, I'd like to shed light on the question of why people support Cerberus. Not people in the Mass Effect universe, not the Shepards you’re playing – that’s roleplaying and could have any number of reasons - but people on these forums. This was triggered by several instances of people asking "They're evil. It's so obvious. Why would anyone want to support them?" others rumored to have been "shocked" by the realization that people do support them, etc. etc.

This post includes some observations I’ve made about the way Cerberus-related things are presented in ME1 and ME2, as well as personal opinions I have on morality and technology, which have caused me to give Cerberus quite a bit of benefit of the doubt. They have not caused me to support their agenda as a whole, even less their methods. But I believe that what I have observed has contributed to the fact that some people do.

I’m going to put the following topics up for discussion:
(1) The problem of invoking evil by association
(2) Presentation failure: trying too hard.
(3) Of evil methods and not-so-evil causes
(4) The bad name and the not-so-bad reality of consequentialism

What I'm not touching in this post is the good that Cerberus actually and irrefutably did by bringing Shepard back and enabling them to fight the Collectors. While this must be acknowledged and people put it forward as a justification, those who aren't predisposed to supporting Cerberus would grudgingly admit the merit but not change their opinion of the organization as a whole. I believe the reasons lie deeper. This post also does not take any of the leaked material into account, because this is the spoiler-free forum and anyway it is not sufficiently complete to be used in a discussion.

(1) The problem of evil invoked by association

Most players’ first encounter with the name “Cerberus” in ME1 is after UNC:Missing Marines. Admiral Kahoku contacts you and tells you that his men were killed by an Alliance black-ops group gone off the grid, saying that they were trying to create some kind of super-soldier.

All this put Cerberus in the ranks of the enemies. What it doesn’t *necessarily* do is putting them into the ranks of the evil. They have split from the Alliance to follow their own agenda and have initiated an act of war, that's all. It may have had any number of legitimate reasons. And well, the creation of super-soldiers *may* be indicative of some sinister cause, and it *may* include horrific experiments on unwilling sentient beings, but actually, nothing of this is necessarily a part of it. Creating super-soldiers is not an inherently evil thing to do. In fact, in some stories there are super-soldiers on the side of the good guys.

Still, Admiral Kahoku talks as if exactly that were an insanely evil thing to do, and the genre-savvy player already knows where this will go – Cerberus will indeed prove to be evil, and will suspect what will happen: the evilness will be driven home with all the power the medium can muster. See (2) for more about that.

What Bioware did here is trying to invoke evil by association – when you hear of super-soldiers, sinister causes like supremacism ideologies pop into your mind, spread over the world by insanely competent soldiers stripped of all human empathy by the horrific conditioning of their evil masters, and if you aren’t used to moral reasoning, likely you’ll be stuck with these associations.

Unfortunately, there are people the trope doesn’t work on. And those like me, who are highly allergic against invoking evil by association, particularly when it comes to technology. Technologies are not morally invalidated by having been used for evil causes. People may feel that way, but a little moral reasoning shows that this feeling is wrong.

Which, yet again, is another thing I’m highly allergic against: using emotional manipulation to drive a moral point home. As a result of this, after UNC: Missing Marines, I was absolutely determined to give Cerberus as much benefit of the doubt as I could.

But it doesn’t end here. Although not directly Cerberus-related, Bioware tried this again with Miranda’s genetic engineering. The "genetic aristocracy supremacism agenda" hinted at when Miranda spoke of her father was being used to morally discredit Miranda’s genetic engineering, driven home by her infertility in LotSB as some sort of "nothing good can come of it" message. Not only didn’t I buy into that, but this annoyed me beyond all measure, because I happen to believe that genetic improvement is highly desirable, and it is *factually* not necessarily tied to any any sinister agenda. Again, an evil cause was being used to discredit a technology. At this point, I was willing to side with the villains just to make the point.

Other people’s reaction may differ somewhat from mine, but the principle is the same: some people intuitively get that there is something wrong with evil being invoked by association. And they are less willing to be drawn in.

(2) Presentation failure: trying too hard

Think of Akuze and Toombs' description of what they did to him. Think of Pragia and the log telling you what happened to the children there. It is rather obvious that this is intended to invoke a "death camp" parallel.

Unfortunately, there is something wrong with that. Because in the historical parallel invoked, the deaths, the dehumanizing and the suffering were very much the point. They *were* the agenda, explicitly put down as policy is some cases. Which makes the monstrously evil acts plausible within the existing ideology. On the other hand, Cerberus was introduced as a reasonably competent organization – they wouldn’t have been able to drop off the grid otherwise, and wouldn't have been able to gain that much power. In ME2 it was presented as an organization with a cause it worked towards ruthlessly, but actual genocide or mass murder didn’t appear to be part of it. You even had a majority of nonhumans on your team. Even worse, there may have been indications of a *human* supremacism agenda, though that was never spelled out, but within such an agenda it would make no sense to build a death camp for humans. Even less human biotics, who would be valued as a rare resource even if you don’t care about morality at all – you just don’t “go through them fast”.

As a result, the evils of Akuze and the Teltin facility appeared to be separate from the Cerberus agenda, accidents, so to speak, for which of course TIM would have more or less responsibility, but which were never intended.

So, how do people react who see through these inconsistencies? Some may accept things at face value nonetheless. But here’s another thing I dislike: trying to hammer the point home that Cerberus is evil by overblown presentation of pointless monstrous acts of evil. Overlord is another example. I don’t know how others reacted, but when I saw the image of David in that contraption, my reaction wasn’t a horrified "That’s….monstrous", but rather "You don’t *seriously* expect me to take that at face value. Right?"

Simply: they tried too hard.

As for what *would* have worked: imagine if you had found this log on Pragia: "I noticed you’ve scheduled another round of experiments on Zero...yes, I know you’re pressed for time and we’ve run out of sedatives, but can you do it somewhere else? The screaming makes the other children nervous, and that skews the results of our psychological evaluations." I believe that would’ve been quite a bit more chilling because of the ruthlessly plausible reasoning. And in Overlord, the scene would have worked better if David was sitting in a chair. Or does anyone think what was done to his eyes and the force-feeding tubes weren’t enough to show what we were dealing with?

(3) Of evil methods and not-so-evil causes

We are used to distrusting power. We are raised to it. There are good reasons to distrust power, but actually, seeking power is not evil. Not even seeking absolute power. That’s because power is a potential, it can be used for good and bad things, and you can even gain it by reasonably acceptable means. And while starting a war of conquest is usually regarded as evil, it’s such a regular event that even that doesn’t put you beyond the moral event horizon, unless you’re especially cruel in going about it.

This means that "human advancement" can have a good face. In my case, I envision one of admittedly radical technological advancement most notably including genetic improvement, but one that would not be brought about by evil means. Of course, Cerberus does quite obviously not represent that face as a whole, but since you can, for various reasons already mentioned, dismiss the more monstrous acts as "not being the real Cerberus", it becomes possible to posit that Cerberus advances a desirable agenda, and that apart of a few "accidents", it goes about it by means that are, if morally problematic, nonetheless justified.

Again, I can only speak for myself: I do not think that Cerberus as a whole uses acceptable methods, nor that their image of "human advancement" is benevolent, but I nonetheless refuse to denounce them altogether because they are the only organization which could yet include that good image in one of their many faces. I thought, and still think, that Miranda represents it and embodies it. To a lesser extent, the crew of the SR2 represents it as well. My main problem is, again, that the ME trilogy appears determined to denounce what I’ve called the "good face of human advancement" as evil by association (see (1)). I hope I won’t need to, but I will side with the villains before relinquishing it.

(To that end, I seriously hope to see some Cerberus renegades in ME3 who have something more interesting to say than “What I did was wrong”)

(4) The bad name and the not-so-bad reality of consequentialism

Consequentialism – the notion that that moral good is determined by outcomes rather than methods, has a bad name. Usually it’s described as "the ends justify the means". While this is a correct description, it is also incomplete. People usually understand it as "Any good end justifies any evil means", which is incorrect. It rather means "Some ends justify more means than others, and they never justify more than the least unacceptable means necessary to reach the goal." And consequentialism is very much prevalent in our normal lives. For instance, the outcome – the use the revenue is put to – is all that distinguishes a tax system from a protection racket.

Now Cerberus was introduced in ME2 a ruthless "result at all costs" type of organization. As which it shouldn’t have been too different from the salarian STG or even the Spectres. Besides, in the ME games we find ourselves in a war for survival of all organic sentient life in the galaxy, which can reasonably be said to justify rather drastic means. Arrival provides the best example.

People may be mislead into believing that Cerberus represents that kind of ruthlessness. If it did, using anything more than the least unacceptable methods to further their goals would make no sense. Still they do. Which should cause people to withdraw their support. So why don't they?

If not for the presentation failure (see (2)), I would be able to ask "Why the hell are they doing this?" and suspect a much more sinister agenda behind it all than simple "human dominance". Discovering such a cause would cause me to renounce them altogether instead of just being ultra-careful around them. However, given the way things go, I must suspect that the writers didn’t think a lot about their presentation of Cerberus and were just determined to make them appear evil by any means possible. See points (1) and (2) for the resulting reaction.

---
That's it for now. There are two more points I could be making: The "Evil is Cool" effect and the undoubted charisma of the Illusive Man and his status as a "Magnificent Bastard". I don't have a lot to say about that. Others may.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2011 - 09:34 .


#2
iSpy

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tl;dr

#3
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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I agree especially with the last part. The people making the games just aren't willing to allow for certain concepts or ideas to have any real support in their universe. Daro'Xen and the whole quarian/geth debate is an example of this.

#4
StarcloudSWG

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Except that Cerberus has been shown to be a terrorist organization. It's in the codex, it's in the ruthless nature of EVERY Cerberus project you come across. The one exception is the rebuilding of the Normandy; I don't want to know the backstory and details of the Lazarus project as it relates to the science of rebuilding a nearly dead/dead person. I'm sure there's details that would make someone with normal morality and ethics sick to review them.

As for the psychology of it, well, people respond to power and see people who are acting decisively as being leaders and worth following. For children, the most popular character in the original Star Wars trilogy, was Darth Vader. Because he did things and everyone else reacted to him. That marked him as powerful, and children picked up on that immediately.

The fact that he was evil didnt' matter to them.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 21 novembre 2011 - 11:01 .


#5
onelifecrisis

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 tl;dr

Also the tl;dr part of this.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 21 novembre 2011 - 10:35 .


#6
CrazyRah

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A very interesting read and in some areas i do agree and in other i do understand where you're coming from.

Cerberus don't fear to do things that're highly questionable no doubt about it but that isn't always a bad thing. Cerberus are very interesting because they can be evil or not depending on how people see different actions they've done in the past. For me Cerberus use methods that's over the line and sometimes horrific but this is based on opinions as much else and what i might think is just too much might be okey for someone else.

I see a lot of people being mad at Cerberus for being extreme and doing ''bad'' things so to speak but i've yet to see nearly as much annoyance and hate on the STG on what they did to the Krogans together with the Turians. What they did is just quite extreme and still Cerberus get hate because of lesser things?

When i saw David there i thought and still think it is monstrous but i also agree that it was Bioware trying too hard and that there were better ways to create the feeling you describe.
Otherwise i'm very much enjoying Cerberus and finding them interesting since they challenge all the time some of my opinions and beliefs and i love it

#7
SNascimento

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I will read this eventually.

#8
Justicar

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Interesting read.

I don't agree, but it gave me some ideas nonetheless.

#9
naledgeborn

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Speaking from an RP point of view here; I'm one of those people that hates the way the organization is presented and run, but wholeheartedly agrees and supports their mission statement of "defense and preservation of humanity". Until there's another group doing the same (the military might of the Alliance is too passive and inefficient) then I will throw my lot in with them. Truth be told I'd very much like an ending where Shepard usurps the Illusive Man. At least that way I'd know that human advancement would be in reasonably good hands.

#10
MisterJB

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Interesting read. I sincerely hope Bioware is paying attention.

#11
Sayton145

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I support them because I can never say no to President Sheen.

#12
Kaiser Shepard

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Now if only Bioware understood their own creation as well as you do; we might even get something less black and white in ME3, something that could actually be used as an example of grey morality in gaming. Sadly enough it looks like we'll just be getting a two-bit antagonistic organisation that could just as well have been named "Space ODESSA".

Alas, poor Godwin...

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 21 novembre 2011 - 11:03 .


#13
Seboist

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Saphra Deden wrote...

I agree especially with the last part. The people making the games just aren't willing to allow for certain concepts or ideas to have any real support in their universe. Daro'Xen and the whole quarian/geth debate is an example of this.


True, Bioware doesn't anything that isn't politically correct in their games like wiping out the Rachni in ME1 causing Shepard to be more respected by the Krogan.

#14
StarcloudSWG

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From what I've seen of the e3 demo gameplay, I think it's possible that Cerberus operatives haven't been all indoctrinated, and that the Illusive Man is trying to 'race' Shepard to be the 'savior of the galaxy.' And not incidentally put humanity in a dominant position over everyone else, with himself at the top of humanity.

From his point of view, he'd see himself as Shepard's rival. Instead of the roadblock antagonist he really is.

And yes, I know Shepard says "They're indoctrinated" when he talks about the Cerberus people fighting him, but Shepard could be wrong; we only see a tiny part of the game in that sequence.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 21 novembre 2011 - 11:10 .


#15
Eckswhyzee

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Ieldra2 wrote...

REALLY CLEVER STUFF


Excellent post. As a consequentialist Paragon, I'm fairly ambivalent towards Cerberus.


StarcloudSWG wrote...

Except that Cerberus has been shown to be a terrorist organization. It's in the codex, it's in the ruthless nature of EVERY Cerberus project you come across. The one exception is the rebuilding of the Normandy; I don't want to know the backstory and details of the Lazarus project as it relates to the science of rebuilding a nearly dead/dead person. I'm sure there's details that would make someone with normal morality and ethics sick to review them.
........



I really don't want to use the "argument from dictionary/Wikipedia", but I disagree with the statement Cerberus are terrorists. They're more like a rogue intelligence/research organisation. If Cerberus were attacking civilian targets with the express purpose of causing 'terror', then I'd go ahead and call them terrorists. Just because someone's conducting horrific scientific experiments, or stealithily assassinating people they don't like doesn't make them terrorists. It just makes them immoral (in the sense that murder is undesirable).

#16
Arkitekt

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Yeah I agree with the OP. I also wished that Bioware had that vision of Cerberus. Kaiser Shepard is adamantly warming us however that this is not how we will see them in ME3, over and over, so I'm afraid we may well be disappointed.

As for me, in ME2 I had this vision of Cerberus as well. A dark organization that tried to do everything at its disposal to battle the most astonishing threat ever imagined. And in face of such a threat, can we really have the luxury to perform as fairies of good intentions and morals?

Obviously I believe so, but I can understand that TIM answered that question with a big "NO" and the hell with it all. There is a good confrontation between the two methods... while TIM gets his things done, Shepard also gets the chance to show that "playing nice" has its awards as well.

#17
Dean_the_Young

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I agree with all four points, and can especially empathize with the 'trying too hard' approach. Overlord was the pinnacle of that in regards to Cerberus: while it made a nice enough 'crucifixion' image, the over-the-top nature for no reason undermined it. If David had simply been strapped in a bed with a helmet he couldn't take off, and like a paralysis drug while the anesthetic fails, that would have been great horror in and of itself.

Cruetly without a point undermines the use of cruelty, and the point.


But I do think you missed an important fifth point, Ieldra: relativism compared to other groups and species, especially the established galactic order. No criticism of Cerberus bioweapons can stand without recognition of the Salarian genophage. No condemnation of the nature of the goals, of economic/cultural dominance can miss the Asari. No argument against the conduct in a fight can ignore Turian doctrine.

And no denouncement of the 'mission first' mentality can ignore the Spectres.

#18
Blacklash93

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Now if only Bioware understood their own creation as well as you do...

Bioware understands their creation perfectly. Just becuase they aren't acting out YOUR vision of the story doesn't make them ignorant of their own creation. If you don't find what they do with the story appealing, then fine. But don't assume you're one to judge what this series should be for everyone.

#19
Dean_the_Young

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Oddly, Kaiser wasn't doing that.

And there certainly is something to be said that Bioware has failed to give a consistent portrayal of Cerberus throughout it's existence.

#20
bleetman

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The problem - and this has always been a concurrent theme with Cerberus operations, it seems - is that pretty much everything they've ever been specifically described doing has been a complete disaster. With the exception of, I don't know, that time they developed some new guns for Shepard to try out, the only instance that springs to mind whereby they themselves actually accomplished something was the Lazarus project, which ended in the deaths of all but two of the project personnel and the destruction of the entire facility. If that's the standard upon which Cerberus views a successful operation, then that sure explains a few things. Don't even get my started on what they're seemingly up to in ME3, it's beyond asinine.

Which is a bit of a problem. If they were morally dubious but achieved tangible results, that'd be one thing. As it stands, it's less that, more 'morally dubious, and pretty much everything they touch goes horrendously wrong'. It's not much of a complex choice.

Modifié par bleetman, 22 novembre 2011 - 01:29 .


#21
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Dean_the_Young wrote...

And there certainly is something to be said that Bioware has failed to give a consistent portrayal of Cerberus throughout it's existence.


I personally don't agree with Cerberus, but I do agree with this statement: BW has been all over the map with their portrayal of Cerberus.

#22
Blacklash93

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Oddly, Kaiser wasn't doing that.


He said a fan knows better than Bioware about its own creation, which means he thinks he knows what's better for the story. He doesn't.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 22 novembre 2011 - 01:42 .


#23
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Kaiser wasn't talking about HIS vision of Cerberus; he was talking about OPs. You're demonizing the wrong person.

Modifié par EternalAmbiguity, 22 novembre 2011 - 01:42 .


#24
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T'was a good read. I do believe Bioware has been trying too hard to make them evil.
Some other reasons I like Cerberus as follows

> I share similar ethics with the illusive man ( Ends Justify the Means )
> I admire the loyalty Cerberus operatives share among one another
> The alliance and council are full of bureaucratic B.S./ Cerberus doesnt let that get in the way of their goals
> Cerberus plays a role into why we have human biotics in the first place
> Idealism is a good thing when applied right.

#25
Blacklash93

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Kaiser wasn't talking about HIS vision of Cerberus; he was talking about OPs. You're demonizing the wrong person.

I was criticizing Kaiser's attitude about his stance on how Cerberus has been handled, which he has made very clear since the leak, in general. Just because he doesn't agree with how Bioware is going about it means what he wants for the story is unsubjectively better. I find that rather arrogant.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 22 novembre 2011 - 02:04 .