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[FJVP]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

At the end of ME2 Shepard explains to TIM that he will not sacrafice the soul of our species to win the war with the Reapers.  I believe that this epitomizes the difference between good and evil.   We have morals, and we stand by them because they define us.  To lose our morals is to lose ourselves, our souls....

Sheps lines there were pure garbage.
"Soul of the species?" How the frack does a species loses it's "soul" by utilizing enemy technology?
Brainless, breainless, brainless. That entire sequence has me seeting with rage...

We're not talking about stealing a better rifle... 

Yes, we actually are.
Where is the "evil" in using that base to save humanity? What the hell have all those people died for? Nothing?


The whole faux morality argument is redicolous.
I find it funny that some people take the moral high ground here, demanding that "X must not be uased, no matter what." That by using X, humanity loses it "humanity".
The same people who call such things immoral then take it upon themselves to decide the fate of an entire species, in the name of morality.
Yes, it's very "moral" to gamble with the lives of everyone without ever aksing them.
Yes, it's very "moral" to decide who lives and dies for everyone, and frak them and their opponion. You know their worth better then them.

"Well, if we do X, humantiy isn't worth perserving anways. It's better for all of you to die then for me to use X...Let's all die people!"

Friggin laughable.

Not in my case. My reason for destroying it go along the lines of "this Base was constructed by the Collectors using Reaper technology, so how can we be sure that there isn't some sort of fail-safe in case it ever fell into enemy hands." After all every Reaper artifact and technology that we've seen so far serves the hidden purpose of indoctrination so who's to say that this thing does not possess some kind of hidden threat as well?

Also, when TIM said "Cerberus is humanity" it made me doubt wheter he'll actually use it as way to progress humanity or simply use the tech to form some sort of military force to threaten and destroy the other species in the galaxy. As you can see it has nothing to do with morality or "sacrificing the soul of our species", and if you dislike that line so much you can also tell him to go to hell instead, it is not forced on you if you go the paragon route.

[Dreadwing 67]

Honestly, I think when TIM found out they were ascending Humanity and no one else, he twirled his mustache and began plotting how to join the Reapers and "Ascend" humanity. Mind you after he tied Khale Sanders to a train track.

That to me is my theory on why he betrayed Shepdog and crew. This was all his goals wrapped up into one super AI.

[someone else]

Dreadwing 67 wrote...

Honestly, I think when TIM found out they were ascending Humanity and no one else, he twirled his mustache and began plotting how to join the Reapers and "Ascend" humanity. Mind you after he tied Khale Sanders to a train track.

That to me is my theory on why he betrayed Shepdog and crew. This was all his goals wrapped up into one super AI.

If that's all his motivation is - dull.   Cerberus conceptually is very believeable and presents a classic hobbeson' choice - but much of it was overwritten/poorly written if the goal was to present a compelling morally ambiguous choice.   Just too much gratuitous murder, torture and inexplicable waste of life and opportunity.

Really hope BW provides better reasons for TIM's decision to collaborate/coop/marry Harby than a) indoctrination [lame] or megalomania [trite].

[Dave of Canada]

Dreadwing 67 wrote...

Honestly, I think when TIM found out they were ascending Humanity and no one else, he twirled his mustache and began plotting how to join the Reapers and "Ascend" humanity. Mind you after he tied Khale Sanders to a train track.

Doesn't make sense, his own thoughts after the Collector Base still remains that he wants to stop the Reapers and he's considering reapproaching Shepard to possibly work with them again.

[ODST 5723]

I've found Ceberus to be very similar in tone to Star Trek's Section 31, which was one of my favorite additions to the Star Trek universe.

[Lotion Soronarr]

FJVP wrote...
Not in my case. My reason for destroying it go along the lines of "this Base was constructed by the Collectors using Reaper technology, so how can we be sure that there isn't some sort of fail-safe in case it ever fell into enemy hands." After all every Reaper artifact and technology that we've seen so far serves the hidden purpose of indoctrination so who's to say that this thing does not possess some kind of hidden threat as well?

By that logic, we shuldnt' research any reaper tech.. EVER.

Thanix cannon? Reaper tech.
EDI? Reaper tech.

Heck, why bother to study indoctriantion at all - it's reaper tech. TI's not liek we need ot know how to fight it, no?

Also, when TIM said "Cerberus is humanity" it made me doubt wheter he'll actually use it as way to progress humanity or simply use the tech to form some sort of military force to threaten and destroy the other species in the galaxy. As you can see it has nothing to do with morality or "sacrificing the soul of our species", and if you dislike that line so much you can also tell him to go to hell instead, it is not forced on you if you go the paragon route.

Why do people keep beliving this stuff?
When did TIM ever hint he wants to destroy other species??? Doesn't enyone read after-mission reports?
TIM clearly sees other species as allies in the fight agaisnt the reapers.

[111987]

TIM sees the aliens as allies against the Reapers, but what about beyond that? He definitely isn't advocating peaceful co-existence with them; he wishes humans to be dominant. I've always seen TIM has seeking to use the other aliens as simply tools against the Reapers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Compared to Saren and Kai Leng, who I think are way better villains, since they actually have the ability to step down from their thrones and personally hurt you in more ways than one, and they have a personal stake in all of this, which they risk just as much as I do. I sort of respect that.

They do?
How do they hurt you in more ways than one?

And why is physical prowess/might a prequisite for agreat villain? That's BS.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They do?
How do they hurt you in more ways than one?

And why is physical prowess/might a prequisite for agreat villain? That's BS.

First, I'll let you guess that one.

Second, I personally like when a villain is really committing him/herself to make things worse for the protagonist like that, because, as I said, there's nothing interesting about a guy who sits on a pile of money and keeps throwing it at whatever problem he might have to make it disappear with little to no effort.

I have no reason whatsoever to be interested in him or to even consider seeing it from his viewpoint when he does that. He says that he's making huge sacrifices, when the worst sacrifice he'd do would be to smoke some really expensive cigar he's saved for a special occasion. He's not doing anything or sacrificing anything. His henchmen are. I actually care more about them, since they're the ones putting their asses on the line. Like Kai Leng. He's the one doing the work. Not TIM.

Oh, he sits in a chair and smokes and drinks scotch all day long. Guess what. I can do that too. I simply choose not to, because it sounds boring as hell.

In a time of war, when there are people like Anderson or Hackett who are risking their lives on a daily basis to fight back against the Reapers, while TIM just looks pathetic while he says that he's the one who's done all the work and put up with so much, when the most exiting moment of the day was probably when he took a ******.

It's just the same with Harbinger. He tries to make himself look like a serious threat and "direct everything personally", while all he's doing is hiding behind his cannon fodder. It makes him look silly.

If you want a title, you have to work for it. Like everyone else.

When TIM actually had to protect his own ass from getting snatched in Retribution, I thought that was a great change of pace and setting.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 23 novembre 2011 - 07:37 .

[CroGamer002]

Someone With Mass wrote...


It's just the same with Harbinger. He tries to make himself look like a serious threat and "direct everything personally", while all he's doing is hiding behind his cannon fodder. It makes him look silly.

To be fair, Harbinger was a bit too far away to do stuff personally and assuming control was only way to do anything directly.

[Goneaviking]

"Creating super-soldiers is not an inherently evil thing to do."
No, but doing painful and invasive experiments on non-consenting sentient people is.

"The "genetic aristocracy supremacism agenda" hinted at when
Miranda spoke of her father was being used to morally discredit
Miranda’s genetic engineering, driven home by her infertility in LotSB
as some sort of "nothing good can come of it" message"
Miranda's father wasn't depicted as a villain because of he's use of technology, he was depicted as a villain because he was a lousy father. That he also supported Cereberus until they saw a benefit in sheltering Miranda from him does him no credit; nor does his hiring of murder inclined mercenaries to kidnap her now adolescent sister instead of contacting the proper authorities and going through legal channels to be reunited with her.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 23 novembre 2011 - 07:46 .

[Someone With Mass]

Mesina2 wrote...

To be fair, Harbinger was a bit too far away to do stuff personally and assuming control was only way to do anything directly.

Well, then he shouldn't have said anything.

I mean, I get it. It's easy to brag when you're tucked away safely somewhere far away from your enemy.

But at least be ready to back your words up. Especially when you're a damn doomsday machine.

Harbinger was just laughable, because he couldn't stop Shepard one bit when it wasn't a ship-to-ship battle. Hell, he couldn't even stop Shepard when it actually was a ship-to-ship battle. More bark than bite.

[CroGamer002]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

To be fair, Harbinger was a bit too far away to do stuff personally and assuming control was only way to do anything directly.

Well, then he shouldn't have said anything.

I mean, I get it. It's easy to brag when you're tucked away safely somewhere far away from your enemy.

But at least be ready to back your words up. Especially when you're a damn doomsday machine.

Harbinger was just laughable, because he couldn't stop Shepard one bit when it wasn't a ship-to-ship battle. Hell, he couldn't even stop Shepard when it actually was a ship-to-ship battle. More bark than bite.

Harbinger's only way for direct confrontation with Shepard is to directly control random Collector.

Oh and yes, Harby can back up his words.
It happens in ME3 since then he isn't far away from galaxy.



While Illusive Man just sits in his chair for entire time while sending his lackeys.

[Nethershadow]

bleetman wrote...

The problem - and this has always been a concurrent theme with Cerberus operations, it seems - is that pretty much everything they've ever been specifically described doing has been a complete disaster. With the exception of, I don't know, that time they developed some new guns for Shepard to try out, the only instance that springs to mind whereby they themselves actually accomplished something was the Lazarus project, which ended in the deaths of all but two of the project personnel and the destruction of the entire facility. If that's the standard upon which Cerberus views a successful operation, then that sure explains a few things. Don't even get my started on what they're seemingly up to in ME3, it's beyond asinine.

Which is a bit of a problem. If they were morally dubious but achieved tangible results, that'd be one thing. As it stands, it's less that, more 'morally dubious, and pretty much everything they touch goes horrendously wrong'. It's not much of a complex choice.

If you work in a complaints department then all you hear about all day long is complaints, regardless that the total percent of complaints might only be 1% of the customer base.
So my point is, out of the incidents we encounter in the game are prolly only a fraction of what Cerebus has going. Cerebus has become a very powerful organisation and the only way for that to happen is they must have some significant successes. Just seems the game focuses on the failure or partial failures.

@ person that suggested a option of Shep to take the place of TIM at the end, I think that would be a freaking awesome ending option!

[Someone With Mass]

Mesina2 wrote...

Harbinger's only way for direct confrontation with Shepard is to directly control random Collector.

Oh and yes, Harby can back up his words.
It happens in ME3 since then he isn't far away from galaxy.

While Illusive Man just sits in his chair for entire time while sending his lackeys.

It's funny, because I have yet to see Harbinger in the script or anywhere else. He's only mentioned briefly by another Reaper at best.

I guess he's hiding from the big bad Shepard too.

[CroGamer002]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Harbinger's only way for direct confrontation with Shepard is to directly control random Collector.

Oh and yes, Harby can back up his words.
It happens in ME3 since then he isn't far away from galaxy.

While Illusive Man just sits in his chair for entire time while sending his lackeys.

It's funny, because I have yet to see Harbinger in the script or anywhere else. He's only mentioned briefly by another Reaper at best.

I guess he's hiding from the big bad Shepard too.

Or just busy with Earth.

Besides, that script is early draft.
Some stuff can still be changed and added.


Also, Harby thinks Shepard is just annoying. No real reason for him to deal with Shepard personally unless in his way.
He's also too arrogant to do it himself.

[Schneidend]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Except that Cerberus has been shown to be a terrorist organization. It's in the codex, it's in the ruthless nature of EVERY Cerberus project you come across.

They are labeled a terrorist organization by the Citadel and Alliance. This doesn't make them terrorists. Terrorists commit acts of violence and sabotage to instill fear, with the hope of altering the behavior of the society they are terrorizing. Real-life terrorists blow up abortion clinics in the hope that people will be too afraid to go to them. Cerberus doesn't do anything remotely like this.

[Someone With Mass]

Schneidend wrote...

They are labeled a terrorist organization by the Citadel and Alliance. This doesn't make them terrorists. Terrorists commit acts of violence and sabotage to instill fear, with the hope of altering the behavior of the society they are terrorizing. Real-life terrorists blow up abortion clinics in the hope that people will be too afraid to go to them. Cerberus doesn't do anything remotely like this.

They do that in ME3. A lot.

[John Renegade]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

They are labeled a terrorist organization by the Citadel and Alliance. This doesn't make them terrorists. Terrorists commit acts of violence and sabotage to instill fear, with the hope of altering the behavior of the society they are terrorizing. Real-life terrorists blow up abortion clinics in the hope that people will be too afraid to go to them. Cerberus doesn't do anything remotely like this.

They do that in ME3. A lot.

Yeah. In ME3. That still doesn't mean that the Alliance and the Council were right to call them that before.

My opinion on a big writer screw up unfortunately doesn't change the situation in ME3. Which is a pity.

[Schneidend]

Someone With Mass wrote...

They do that in ME3. A lot.

Haven't read the old draft of the script, nor do I intend to.

I'll draw my own conclusions when I've finished playing the game and Darius Shepard has had a long chat with TIM.

[John Renegade]

Schneidend wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

They do that in ME3. A lot.

Haven't read the old draft of the script, nor do I intend to.

I'll draw my own conclusions when I've finished playing the game and Darius Shepard has had a long chat with TIM.

I've red the new script and... let's just say I don't like it.

[Schneidend]

John Renegade wrote...

I've red the new script and... let's just say I don't like it.

Ah, yes, the "new script." The electronic document supposedly making the rounds of the internet. We have dismissed such claims.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Yes, ME3 is a terribly written piece of garbage. This is old news.

it's better than the intense Cerberus ass kissing they did in ME2.