535 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

We don't really know if EDI means operative as anyone who operates under the employ of Cerberus, or if they have a narrower definition or designation that certain employees or members or whatever are called. I assumed that it was something like the latter where operatives are specialists who may or may not oversee missions, or carry them out.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Arcian wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

But there is poor writing, particularly in regards to Cerberus. It's called Character Derailment,

http://tvtropes.org/...acterDerailment

It's not just Cerberus, almost every other human character, who isn't Anderson or a Mary Sue, gets derailed or shoved into a whole.

That's your opinion.

No, that's a fact.

[UpDownLeftRight]

Good thread, Ieldra. I agree with your posts. They definitely tried "too hard" in making Cerberus look bad and evil. I don't know that much about the spoilers but I hope they, or the motives behind their actions, will be a bit more grey in ME3

Again, nice thread.

[Bleachrude]

Really..so how is setting a Thresher Maw on soldiers, poisoning an admiral, the Thorian slaves NOT considered EVIL?

Have we become so jaded that nothing is evil anymore? And we want such a species to lead/control the galactic community?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Even bad and evil organizations will do some good to win people over. By coming to the rescue of the colonies, Cerberus tried to make inroads with more humans. TIM is a sociopath, though. That much is obvious. Just the way he constantly puts Shepard in danger under the guise that if Shepard understood more it might tip off the Collectors which IMO is a pile of crap. Shepard would still have gone to Horizon, to the Collector vessel, and to the derelict reaper, and done the same thing pretty much. Just maybe have been a bit more aware of what was going on. TIM only cares about TIM and money. He doesn't even care about his operatives.

[CerberusWarrior]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Even bad and evil organizations will do some good to win people over. By coming to the rescue of the colonies, Cerberus tried to make inroads with more humans. TIM is a sociopath, though. That much is obvious. Just the way he constantly puts Shepard in danger under the guise that if Shepard understood more it might tip off the Collectors which IMO is a pile of crap. Shepard would still have gone to Horizon, to the Collector vessel, and to the derelict reaper, and done the same thing pretty much. Just maybe have been a bit more aware of what was going on. TIM only cares about TIM and money. He doesn't even care about his operatives.

  


do you honestly think the alliance gives a damn about Shepard. They already sent spies to spy on him and took the SR 2 from him / her which they had no business doing at all. No they do not care all they want is him to pay for crimes he or she did . Which is bull sh*t based on ME 1 when Shepard became a Specter .

[someone else]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
TIM only cares about TIM and money. He doesn't even care about his operatives.

No idea how what you mean.  There is NO indication that TIM is in it for the do-re-mi or self-aggrandizement.  Do you seriously think he's running Cerberus as charity front to rake in the credits from gullible donors with starry-eyed stories of a glorious human future in the empyrean?  A cite or two would cause the scales to fall from mine eyes..

TIM is a megalomaniac?  Citation needed here, please.  Perhaps (I have only indirect exposure to spoilers) in ME3 that is revealed as his motivation, but so far I am unaware of anything that supports your claim.   So far he is a man with a transcendent mission that necessarily has placed him outside the bounds of convention, law, and society.   Where this could have potentially led him in the meta universe is a profound and gripping question, with enormous plot potential.  I can only hope the worst I have gleaned about his fate in the hands of BW is overstated.

He doesn't "care" about his operatives?  In what sense should he?  Provide health care, pension, and a safe, non-discriminatory work enviroment where diversity is celebrated?  He's not running for office, he's not a 20th century social democrat and he's not, I repeat not, their friend, soul mate, or peer.

Every one of those "operatives" are on-board in a covert, para-military capacity where they clearly understand they may be in mortal risk on any mission.  Those 150 individuals I believe are highly leveraged core assets and in every instance we are aware of, they are very, very carefully deployed by TIM.  

As to who falls in this category I disagree with earlier estimates - Miranda, Kai Leng, Grayson, Archer and Shepard are clearly operatives - maybe Jacob but I doubt he'd be given mission responsibility (was he on the Citadel mission or did Miranda parachute in?) - but below that Kelly, Joker, Gardner,  Employees.   Dr Ross on Nodacrux - employee.  Brunette serving Jack Daniels - clearly paid for services rendered.

In fact the only truly negative thing anyone can say conclusively about TIM is that his taste in bourbon is hopelessly bad.  [will not tolerate flamewar re jack daniels - even jack daniels sells  a better grade of sour mash, and there's better still.  I am right on this.  No argument.]

Modifié par someone else, 24 novembre 2011 - 04:18 .

[Patius Mehaffius]

Bleachrude wrote...

Really..so how is setting a Thresher Maw on soldiers, poisoning an admiral, the Thorian slaves NOT considered EVIL?

Have we become so jaded that nothing is evil anymore? And we want such a species to lead/control the galactic community?

Yeah, especially when people are like "That's war."



Except that they weren't? Cerberus was simply assassinating people, attacking human soldiers on akuze by setting up a trap, and investigating biological weapons and bioengineered weapons. And then after ME2, you know the entire thing with Greyson and reaper tech isn't good either.


Not too sure about it, but some of those things (assassination, bioengineeered weapons) are illegal in warfare. 
Basically, doing dispicable, highly unethical things outside of war that has a cost in lives.  

Which could reasonably be described as evil.

[someone else]

Saphra Deden wrote...

"evil"

Not a trap question - Do you regard "Evil" as a meaningful concept - or just a relativistic term of approbrium?  And if you do, given Cerberus's mission (to ensure the galactic dominance of humanity), is there anything they might do in furtherance of that mission you would regard as "evil"? 

[Patius Mehaffius]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Patius Mehaffius wrote...

Except that they weren't? Cerberus was simply assassinating people,

They were protecting themselves. Do you expect them to just surrender? Now I'm not saying it wasn't murder. I'm not saying it was legal. However I don't think Cerberus killing Alliance personnel when they have to makes them "evil" by itself. 

Oh sure. if that was the only thing they did, it'd be fiiiiine. They obviously tried every other method in existence to silence him first.  /sarcasm.

And even if that was true, all the other stuff they did, including the senseless slaughter of soldiers who had no idea they even existed certainly is evil. Buying/abducting children to perform awful experiments on them is evil. Haphazardly experimenting with Rachni and Thorians so that they can escape and kill everyone is bad. Kidnapping someone who is your enemy and then exposing them to technology that robs him of his humanity is evil.

The only time you see Cerberus people doing something that just isn't 100% deplorable is the Lazurus cell, and even then, that cell wasn't entirely comprised of people who were longtime members of cerberus.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Using Thresher Maws to kill soldiers out to arrest or kill you is just warfare. I don't know that it is particularly "evil". Same with poisoning the admiral.

Thorian creepers aren't people. They are just drones. How is that evil?

Except that's not what happened. The marines on Akuze weren't out there looking for Cerberus, they didn't even know about Cerberus. It's pretty evil to let your fellow humans walk into a trap like that. It's even possible they left a beacon there to trick the marines, and thus it was a deliberate action and not simply evil through inaction (on one of the uncharted worlds there is a beacon that leads straight to a Thresher Maw pit; sound familiar?) Either way, what happened on Akuze was evil.

[Sgt Stryker]

The marines on Edolus were lured to a thresher maw nest by a false distress beacon. There is no indication that this was an act of self-defense by Cerberus personnel under attack by said marine unit.

[IllusiveMike]

Kohoku's soldiers were lured into the trap by an Alliance DISTRESS beacon. That was not self-protection. It was a stupid experiment that they had already done on Akuze. Not much to learn from it other than soldiers aren't good at fighting off giant monster ambushes. Uh, duh.

Regardless, killing others to cover-up your previous crimes is not warfare, it's straight up criminal.

No one disregards a bank robber's murder of every customer and witness at a bank because he was merely "protecting" himself from getting caught. It's about as sociopathic as you can get.

I think the implication with the creepers is that Exo-Geni (or Cerberus) turned normal people into creepers, which is also fairly evil.

[Sgt Stryker]

IllusiveMike wrote...
 Not much to learn from it other than soldiers aren't good at fighting off giant monster ambushes. Uh, duh. 

Unless those soldiers happen to be Commander Shepard, a tank-bred krogan, and a random badass, apparently.

[Patius Mehaffius]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Patius Mehaffius wrote...

Oh sure. if that was the only thing they did, it'd be fiiiiine. They obviously tried every other method in existence to silence him first.  /sarcasm.

So what, you think Ceberus just killed them for fun? What ever gave you that impression? Even in Teltin it is clear that they weren't tormenting the children for ****s and giggles. What they did to Kohoku and his marines wasn't nearly as nasty.

Patius Mehaffius wrote...

And even if that was true, all the other stuff they did, including the senseless slaughter of soldiers who had no idea they even existed certainly is evil.

No, it is just warfare. What makes killing an Alliance soldier who would do the same to them an inherently evil act?

Patius Mehaffius wrote...

Haphazardly experimenting with Rachni and Thorians so that they can escape and kill everyone is bad.

I want you to take a deep breath and stop being so emotional about this. Cerberus was not studying rahcni so they could escape and kill people. The escape was an accident. If any;thing they were careless, but that is not "evil".

Regarding the Thorian creepers you are confusing Cerberus with Exo-Geni. Cerberus experimented on a few but they never escaped and killed anyone.

Patius Mehaffius wrote...

Kidnapping someone who is your enemy and then exposing them to technology that robs him of his humanity is evil.

Should they have kidnapped a friend instead? Using the technology on Grayson was more ethical than abducting some random civilian. It was necessary research as well. Somebody has to make these hard choices and it is clear from your hysterical blubbering that you wouldn't be up to the task.

One, I'm not the one calling people hypocrites and telling them they lack integrity because they happen to like choosing paragon for whatever reason. 

Two, I never said the rachni thing was evil. I said it was bad.

Three, where was I blubbering? 

Four, you're acting like these "hard choices" were necessary and provided benefits. A cynical, cold, cost-benefits analsysis would indicate that besides perhaps the biotic kids, that the risks of toying with dangerous enemy specimens and poorly understood reaper technology wasn't really worth it, considering the experiments ended with all the reasearcher's dead and besides that one cell on the reaper, little or nothing to show for it.

The rachni esacped, alerting the aliance of their activites and killed the researchers. The assassination of Kohaku got that cell eliminated, the biotic children experiments resulted with the primary test subject destroying the facility and escaping, and the expirimentation with reaper tech resulted in a dangerous, indoctrinated individual escaping and caused problems for Cerberus. 

And considering what I've heard about them in ME3 from the demos, it looks like their "hard choices" backfired again, only this time spectacularly. 


On another, unrelated note: It's absolutely hysterical to see you call everyone emotional when you are making sweeping insults against people for making different choices from you.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Except that's not what happened. The marines on Akuze weren't out there looking for Cerberus,

I was talking about Kohoku's marines. If you are talking about the marines on Akuze then you don't even know that Cerberus had anything to do with the marines being slaughtered in the first place.

You don't think Cerberus was responsible for Akuze? So their team just happened to be right on site to capture and experiment on the soldiers? That seems rather unlikely to me. It's far more likely Cerberus orchestrated the whole thing. After all they did the exact same thing with Kahoku's marines; the parallels are unmistakeable.

[nocbl2]

To the first part: I think it's not that it's the tech being used for evil purposes, but rather the tech was created with evil methods that disturbs people. I mean, nukes may have done horrific things to Japan, but now we have nuclear power.