535 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

And those scientists are referred to as *gasp* Alliance scientists by Hackett

dun dun duuuun.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

someone else wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
TIM only cares about TIM and money. He doesn't even care about his operatives.

No idea how what you mean.  There is NO indication that TIM is in it for the do-re-mi or self-aggrandizement.  Do you seriously think he's running Cerberus as charity front to rake in the credits from gullible donors with starry-eyed stories of a glorious human future in the empyrean?  A cite or two would cause the scales to fall from mine eyes..

TIM is a megalomaniac?  Citation needed here, please. <snip> So far he is a man who believes he is on a transcendent mission that necessarily has placed him outside the bounds of convention, law, and society.   Where this could have potentially led him in the meta universe is a profound and gripping question, with enormous plot potential.  I can only hope the worst I have gleaned about his fate in the hands of BW is overstated.

He doesn't "care" about his operatives?  In what sense should he?  Provide health care, pension, and a safe, non-discriminatory work enviroment where diversity is celebrated?  He's not running for office, he's not a 20th century social democrat and he's not, I repeat not, their friend, soul mate, or peer.

Every one of those "operatives" are on-board in a covert, para-military capacity where they clearly understand they may be in mortal risk on any mission.  Those 150 individuals I believe are highly leveraged core assets and in every instance we are aware of, they are very, very carefully deployed by TIM.  

Fixed in red. You gave all the evidence we needed. That description practically defines megalomania. Could someone else have done this? Absolutely. He uses people for his needs. He has the psychological need to feel in charge. The latter is clearly evident the way he makes Shepard wait for him to finish his puff on the cigarette and clearing of the ashes.

He uses his charm and wit to diffuse situations where he withheld information from Shepard, to make them feel valuable. He lies about the purpose of missions. You will say "need to know." He cares not one bit for their safety, but only that he doesn't personally get his hands dirty or risk his person. Sociopaths fit perfectly into that type of operation. They get very angry when they don't get their way -- see SM especially if Shepard has Miranda with her/him. The original idea was to blow the base, but that was never the plan. Blowing the base was the bait to get cooperation. Capturing the base was his real intent.

Sociopaths are very good at compartmentalizing morals and ethics. TIM is exceptionally good at doing that. I know about sociopaths. I lived with one.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

You don't think Cerberus was responsible for Akuze? So their team just happened to be right on site to capture and experiment on the soldiers?

Let me give you a scenario:

A colony goes missing. The Alliance sends their marines. The marines go missing. The Alliance determines the marines were wiped out by a lifeform they have never encountered before.

Cerberus is sent to study these lifeforms. In the process the find Toombs. They eventually learn how to spot thresher maws ahead of time and what sorts of things attract thresher maws in the first place.

Later on Edolus they use this knowlege to eliminate Alliance personnel investigating Cerberus.

There are other potential scenarios too, such as the Alliance deliberately ordering Cerberus to observe the marines being attacked and to assess how prepared the Alliance is for future engagements.

The point is, you don't know what involvement Cerberus had beyond them studying Toombs.

True, but the implication is that Cerberus was responsible.

Either way, it seems a bit overboard to have to kill Kahoku's marines in such a spectacular manner. Why not just plant a bomb near the distress signal? The fact they had Thresher Maws do it paints them in somewhat of a sadistic/malevolent light.

[capn233]

I'm sure it was so it would look like an accident. The whole point is that Cerberus does not want to be implicated in things, part of why they aren't really a terrorist group.

A unit of marines "accidentally" stumbles onto a Thresher Maw nest. Simple explanation, case closed. If they were blown up by a bomb, somebody had to be responsible.

The only reason anyone finds the Cerberus link is because Kohoku doesn't think his men could be careless enough to be taken out by a Maw and you believe him and help him out. He in turn is killed for not leaving things alone.

[111987]

capn233 wrote...

I'm sure it was so it would look like an accident. The whole point is that Cerberus does not want to be implicated in things, part of why they aren't really a terrorist group.

A unit of marines "accidentally" stumbles onto a Thresher Maw nest. Simple explanation, case closed. If they were blown up by a bomb, somebody had to be responsible.

The only reason anyone finds the Cerberus link is because Kohoku doesn't think his men could be careless enough to be taken out by a Maw and you believe him and help him out. He in turn is killed for not leaving things alone.

A good point. Cerberus isn't a terrorist group, for sure. I do think some of their actions could be seen as evil, such as their treatment of Jack and the other kids at Teltin, David in Overlord (surely they could have had a better setup, at the very least), and possibly the luring of the marines on Akuze.

Assassinations, kidnappings and theft aren't exactly 'good' either. As seen in the Shadow Broker dossier, Cerberus assassinated a lot of people (such as the Pope, and the previous head of Terra Firma), engaged in theft (such as stealing antimatter from the SSV Geneva), kidnapping (such as Teltin, and Asari biotics to test biotic-inhibiting drugs), and other random acts (sabotage, poisoning, etc...).

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

True, but the implication is that Cerberus was responsible.

There is no "implication". You know Cerberus was involved but not how deeply.

Also we are talking about Akuze in this case. Christ, can't you follow a conversation?

There is no disputing that Cerberus killed Kohoku's marines.

Um, I was talking about Akuze. I don't see where I lost the conversation. Anyways, see my post about the info in the Shadow Broker dossiers.

EDIT: Ah I see the issue. My apologies. My two 'paragraphs' were talking about different things.

Modifié par 111987, 24 novembre 2011 - 07:38 .

[HiroVoid]

[quote]sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The original idea was to blow the base, but that was never the plan. Blowing the base was the bait to get cooperation. Capturing the base was his real intent. [/quote]

[/quote]
Wait.  If that's true, wouldn't Illusive Man just have told Shepard that the plan was to capture the base to use against the reapers later instead of hoping he'd have a last minute change of heart.  Shepard would still have to go through all of there to stop the Collectors no matter what.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Um, I was talking about Akuze. I don't see where I lost the conversation. Anyways, see my post about the info in the Shadow Broker dossiers.

So you can't even follow your own posts then. How enlightening.

See my edit for clarification.

Anyways, moving on to the Shadow Broker dossiers; they show a lot of arguably evil actions committed by Cerberus.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Anyways, moving on to the Shadow Broker dossiers; they show a lot of arguably evil actions committed by Cerberus.

Which actions stand out to you and how do you define "evil" anyway?

I think the worst actions were the kidnapping of Asari to test drugs on and the assassination of people whose views don't align with Cerberus (head of Terra Firma, Pope, etc,,,).

I don't want to get involved in a philisophical debate, but I see these actions as evil because they unecessarily violate the lives of (relatively) innocent people. Killing people for the sole reason of them having different views than you is evil to me. Kidnapping people with the sole intent of taking away one of their most unique attributes (i.e. biotics) is a violation of their freedom and their lives, and is thus evil.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

I think the worst actions were the kidnapping of Asari to test drugs on and the assassination of people whose views don't align with Cerberus (head of Terra Firma, Pope, etc,,,).

Well, those actions all helped humans. The asari abductions helped Cerberus develop anti-biotic (not the germ kind) measures. The assassinations got rid of humans who would have damage humanity with their corrosive politics.

Harsh, illegal, maybe immoral (depending on your views).

Indeed, the results may have been positive, but the actions themselves were not what anyone would consider 'good'. I guess it depends on your views, as you say. If you believe that any action is justifiable if the result is positive, you wouldn't believe Cerberus is evil.

[capn233]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well, those actions all helped humans. The asari abductions helped Cerberus develop anti-biotic (not the germ kind) measures. The assassinations got rid of humans who would have damage humanity with their corrosive politics.

Harsh, illegal, maybe immoral (depending on your views).

Necessary evil?

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Indeed, the results may have been positive, but the actions themselves were not what anyone would consider 'good'.

I consider them good and I'm someone. Don't I count?

Read the rest of my post.

As I said, the actions themselves are evil. Unless you consider the concepts of murder and kidnapping as good. I then went on to say it depends on your views. I'll amend my statement; most people find those actions evil. More people would undoubtedly see them as necesarry evil, but stil evil.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Arcian wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Indeed, the results may have been positive, but the actions themselves were not what anyone would consider 'good'.

I consider them good and I'm someone. Don't I count?

Would it hurt your feelings if I said no?

lol

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

I think the worst actions were the kidnapping of Asari to test drugs on and the assassination of people whose views don't align with Cerberus (head of Terra Firma, Pope, etc,,,).

Well, those actions all helped humans. The asari abductions helped Cerberus develop anti-biotic (not the germ kind) measures. The assassinations got rid of humans who would have damage humanity with their corrosive politics.

Harsh, illegal, maybe immoral (depending on your views).

Indeed, the results may have been positive, but the actions themselves were not what anyone would consider 'good'. I guess it depends on your views, as you say. If you believe that any action is justifiable if the result is positive, you wouldn't believe Cerberus is evil.

Indeed. Action as kidnaping and assasinationare seen as evil.
Assainating Hitler? Evil. Because good people don't assasinate.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]HiroVoid wrote...


[quote]sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The original idea was to blow the base, but that was never the plan. Blowing the base was the bait to get cooperation. Capturing the base was his real intent. [/quote]

[/quote]
Wait.  If that's true, wouldn't Illusive Man just have told Shepard that the plan was to capture the base to use against the reapers later instead of hoping he'd have a last minute change of heart.  Shepard would still have to go through all of there to stop the Collectors no matter what.

[/quote]

I don't recall TIM ever explicitly stating that hthe goal of the mission was to blow up the base.

It was "stop the Collectors".
So I don't see any switch or duplicity there.