535 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Arcian wrote...

TIM keeps reeling in retards with promises of freedom and dental insurances, both of which new recruits will never, ever see. That's how Cerby has survived.

Why are they a threat? Because they're like homicidal/suicidal lemmings with big guns, armor and a 2000 terabit/second brain uplink connection to the Reapers.

Hold on hold on hold on!


They've got dental?!?!?!?!

The fething Spectres don't even have dental!!!

Spectres don't even get their own guns or clothes. At least Cerberus puts out.

Cerberus may put out but...I get the feeling you'd need to get yourself checked afterwards...


That b*tch is poison.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 24 novembre 2011 - 01:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

You know, that's what Mordin was saying...

[Dean_the_Young]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...
Alliance is a representative political body and the Council is an executive committee, both bound by laws and treaty which defines their role, both representative of people.
Cerberus is a bunch of powerful people illegaly forcing their view on others people.

Legal - schmegal. Liek it makes any practical difference.

The Council can assasinate undesirables, opress media and experiment on innocents just as Cerberus.
Victims don't give a damn about legality.

It can also legalize unethical science and commerce (Drugs! Slaves!) with wink-wink-nod-nod 'not Council space' worlds like Illium and Noveria, which despite being populated by, run by, and servicing Counccil species and groups... are totally not Council space.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not enough.
True evil imples having no remorese, not caring about others and enjoying the suffering.
After all, if a plane with a nuke and full of civilians is heading right to the city you live, and youre clsoe to the outskirts with a bazooka - would you be evil in shooting it down?
If several people who escaped a quarantene with a deadly virus try to get into your home to get supplies, and you shoot them - are you evil?

Feelings doesn't hurt people, only acts does.
Remorsefull killer does just as much harm as remorseless killer.
For your questions I have already responded that in one of my previous post, but I'll devellop a little.
As it is not really precise questions, I'll have to make some assumptions, though.
So I'll shoot, because people in the plane are dead anyway, so in the end it makes no difference for them. Still the cause of their death will be people which have taken over control of the plane to crash it on my town.
Contamined people knows they are willingly putting my life in danger even when I didn't do anything to them, so defending myself is normal.

[Aeowyn]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...
Alliance is a representative political body and the Council is an executive committee, both bound by laws and treaty which defines their role, both representative of people.
Cerberus is a bunch of powerful people illegaly forcing their view on others people. Were they not trying to force their view like a totalitarianist government (or a bunch of terrorist), they could just go found a colony on a new neutral world with their followers.

And you realize that Cerberus used to (and probably still is) a part of the Alliance, right?

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Is it not necessary?
When the reapers arrive every advantage is necessary. We already know the reaces in ME3 win soley because of a McGuffin (Cerberus supplied no less). When you're fighting a loosing war that ends with the extinction of sentiant life in the galaxy, EVERYTHING is justified.

Actually, I didn't read ME3 spoilers, so I can't agree and disagree about that part.
And as I said twice (or was it three times?) before, people which are already dead doesn't count when you have to make a decision.
The debatable point is knowing which are already dead people and who aren't. To me actually the Batarians of arrival were dead people anyway (after I could not make them evacuate their planet), but most of Cerberus decisions did not implied that.

[Jonathan Shepard]

This seems less like a "why people like Cerberus" and more of a "Cerberus' actions are done for the greater good!"

Solid arguments in that regard, though. I approve, and honestly can't wait to see something of The Illusive Man in the trailers. At least, I hope he gets some time in the trailers.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
Laws which they happily violate. The Council even has an entire special division devoted to that very purpose.[/quote]
To which governments could react by getting out of council if they wished to, or declare war.
That's sometimes what happens when treaty are broken, not always.
Anyway that would still be government affairs, not an organisation acting on it's own. 
[quote][quote]
PS: Very clever use of "weaboo" to define a character from a western tabletop role playing game anyway...But that's common fact: those who can't argue usually attack the person instead.[/quote]
So what's your favorite anime?[/quote][/quote]
Slayers, because I'm a tabletop RPG nerd, and Slayers is D&D on a TV.
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Legal - schmegal. Liek it makes any practical difference.
The Council can assasinate undesirables, opress media and experiment on innocents just as Cerberus.
Victims don't give a damn about legality.[/quote]
Difference is that legality comes from agreement from the greater number, so a least representative governments can play that card, unlike Cerberus, so there may be a debate about that "greater good" thing (then I'll be on the other camp, but that's another debate).
[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
It can also legalize unethical science and commerce (Drugs! Slaves!) with wink-wink-nod-nod 'not Council space' worlds like Illium and Noveria, which despite being populated by, run by, and servicing Counccil species and groups... are totally not Council space.
[/quote]
I don't see where is differ from the France-Monaco in real world: the two are liked entity, still are different entity.
As said before, Cerberus could (and perhaps should) have estabished themselves in a colony outside of council space, there they would have the rights to represent humans being there (and have to assume their acts like a government and not a bunch of plotters).
[quote]Aeowyn wrote...
And you realize that Cerberus used to (and probably still is) a part of the Alliance, right?[/quote]
Cerberus being Alliance black ops has been changed even before ME1 was sold, and even if they were, they would just be that: black ops, meaning no legitimity of any kind to claim being representative of humanity.

Modifié par Kakita Tatsumaru, 24 novembre 2011 - 03:05 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Laws which they happily violate. The Council even has an entire special division devoted to that very purpose.

To which governments could react by getting out of council if they wished to, or declare war.
That's sometimes what happens when treaty are broken, not always.
Anyway that would still be government affairs, not an organisation acting on it's own.

If you don't abide by the Council's demands for the right to murder you, the only alternatives are the Terminus which will eat you alive... or fighting the Council, in which case they break your legs.

Congratulations: you've just defended an extortion racket setup.

I don't see where is differ from the France-Monaco in real world: the two are liked entity, still are different entity.

I was unaware that modern France legalized slavery and the drug trade through Monaco.

As said before, Cerberus could (and perhaps should) have estabished themselves in a colony outside of council space, there they would have the rights to represent humans being there (and have to assume their acts like a government and not a bunch of plotters).

The Council would do the exact same as it already does: call them a terrorist group, attack them where they can, and you covert means or proxies to engage them in the Terminus once they've made themselves enough of a nuissance.

[Ticktank]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Ticktank wrote...

[quote]
Eugenics is supposed to be for humanity's interests.
That awful building across my house that gets crowded every Sunday morning is supposed to be there for humanity's interests.

But are they? [/quote]

Yes.
That "awefull building" across the cespool you call your house is there for humanities interest.

[/quote]

Judging from your spelling competency and inability to sound coherent, I guess school is a 'cespool' to you too.

Jeebus loves joo.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

I think the worst actions were the kidnapping of Asari to test drugs on and the assassination of people whose views don't align with Cerberus (head of Terra Firma, Pope, etc,,,).

Well, those actions all helped humans. The asari abductions helped Cerberus develop anti-biotic (not the germ kind) measures. The assassinations got rid of humans who would have damage humanity with their corrosive politics.

Harsh, illegal, maybe immoral (depending on your views).

Indeed, the results may have been positive, but the actions themselves were not what anyone would consider 'good'. I guess it depends on your views, as you say. If you believe that any action is justifiable if the result is positive, you wouldn't believe Cerberus is evil.

Indeed. Action as kidnaping and assasinationare seen as evil.
Assainating Hitler? Evil. Because good people don't assasinate.

I think you missed the point. Assassinating someone like Hitler is a necesarry evil, and justifiable. However, it still would have been better to capture him and then try him.

Hitler was a war criminal, and the leader of a nation at war; killing him would end the war. Cerberus assassinated people just because their views didn't align with Cerberus. It is a completely different situation.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Unless you consider the concepts of murder and kidnapping as good. I then went on to say it depends on your views. I'll amend my statement; most people find those actions evil. More people would undoubtedly see them as necesarry evil, but stil evil.

Okay, so what are you trying to prove?

That Cerberus has undeniably committed evil actions in the past. However, what people can argue is that they were worth it/justifiable.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Ticktank wrote...

Humanity. Pfft. Full of wonderful ideas that look nice in concept, but all end up the same eventually.

It always starts with:
"Organization X exists for humanity's interests."

And then somewhere along the way, it'll become:
"Organization X is humanity!"

Until finally, when enough people have drank the kool aid:
Leader of organization: "I am organization X!"

Cerberus is already at step 2.
 
 

This. But we'll never convince the Cerberus and TIM fanboys otherwise.

[someone else]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

someone else wrote...
a man who believes he is on a transcendent mission that necessarily has placed him outside the bounds of convention, law, and society.

Fixed in red. You gave all the evidence we needed. That description practically defines megalomania.

uh, nooo....
"Megalomania is a psycho-pathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence. 'Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs'.[1] Historically it was used as an old name for narcissistic personality disorder prior to the latter's first use by Heinz Kohut in 1968, and is used these days as a non-clinical equivalent.[2][3] It is not mentioned in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)[4] or the International Statistical classification of Diseases (ICD)."  not a bad wiki, but you're welcome to provide a more authorative source.

"...overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs."  only part of the def that is potentially relevant - but its far from conclusive that TIM has overestimated anything regarding the gravity of the reaper threat, the crossroads at which humanity finds itself, and Cerberus' potential to act.

"...delusional"?  I'd say he's doing pretty well channelling steve jobs in the reality distortion field business - there's nothing delusional about cerberus power and relevance. 

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
The original idea was to blow the base, but that was never the plan. Blowing the base was the bait to get cooperation. Capturing the base was his real intent.

??!?  Sure glad the ability to read the minds and plumb unspoken ulterior motives does not suggest  "delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence";)   There is ZERO evidence for this idea - why would he have given code to blow the place in the first place - he could just have easily substitued the neutron pulse (or whatever it was exactly) without letting shep & Co in on it - they'd have hightailed it out just the same and woudln't have been the wiser about the fate of the base until ME3

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
...sociopaths.   I lived with one.

[genuine compassion] I grew up with one too, a bi-polar, abusive, narcissistic ego-centric failure. But that is no reason for me to project such a profile upon every authority figure I dislike.

(sometimes the Elcor just know how to put it best)

...help! am about to be processed into cranberry goo by a 20lb avian reaper basting at 375F...

Modifié par someone else, 24 novembre 2011 - 06:19 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not enough.
True evil imples having no remorese, not caring about others and enjoying the suffering.
After all, if a plane with a nuke and full of civilians is heading right to the city you live, and youre clsoe to the outskirts with a bazooka - would you be evil in shooting it down?
If several people who escaped a quarantene with a deadly virus try to get into your home to get supplies, and you shoot them - are you evil?

Feelings doesn't hurt people, only acts does.
Remorsefull killer does just as much harm as remorseless killer.
For your questions I have already responded that in one of my previous post, but I'll devellop a little.
As it is not really precise questions, I'll have to make some assumptions, though.
So I'll shoot, because people in the plane are dead anyway, so in the end it makes no difference for them. Still the cause of their death will be people which have taken over control of the plane to crash it on my town.
Contamined people knows they are willingly putting my life in danger even when I didn't do anything to them, so defending myself is normal.

But feeling are part of a person. You cannot put them out of hte equation. A man who shoots another man and feels guilt and sadness, and a man who shoot another man and enjoys it and feels no remorse - they are hardly equal.

And to add on to your reply - people of the galaxy are dead anyway if the Reapers show up wihout us having a counter-weapons, so it makes no difference anyway.

And those contaminated people are only trying to survive.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

I think the worst actions were the kidnapping of Asari to test drugs on and the assassination of people whose views don't align with Cerberus (head of Terra Firma, Pope, etc,,,).

Well, those actions all helped humans. The asari abductions helped Cerberus develop anti-biotic (not the germ kind) measures. The assassinations got rid of humans who would have damage humanity with their corrosive politics.

Harsh, illegal, maybe immoral (depending on your views).

Indeed, the results may have been positive, but the actions themselves were not what anyone would consider 'good'. I guess it depends on your views, as you say. If you believe that any action is justifiable if the result is positive, you wouldn't believe Cerberus is evil.

Indeed. Action as kidnaping and assasinationare seen as evil.
Assainating Hitler? Evil. Because good people don't assasinate.

I think you missed the point. Assassinating someone like Hitler is a necesarry evil, and justifiable. However, it still would have been better to capture him and then try him.

Hitler was a war criminal, and the leader of a nation at war; killing him would end the war. Cerberus assassinated people just because their views didn't align with Cerberus. It is a completely different situation.

No, they assisanted for the greater good.

The pope was insitigating a war with hte salarians, worsening inter-species relations.

And you dont' get to cherry pick now. Either assasiantions are good or they are not. If you claim that assasiantions are good if hte peopel who get killed are those you don't like, then we dont' have anything to talk about.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ticktank wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ticktank wrote...
Eugenics is supposed to be for humanity's interests.
That awful building across my house that gets crowded every Sunday morning is supposed to be there for humanity's interests.
But are they?

Yes.
That "awefull building" across the cespool you call your house is there for humanities interest.

Judging from your spelling competency and inability to sound coherent, I guess school is a 'cespool' to you too.

Jeebus loves joo.

Ahh..attacking the speed typos of the other poster - the final refuge of those without arguments or a proper reply.
Now I could point out your inabiltiy to quote properly, but that would be lowering myself to your level.

and that would be degrading.

*Image removed per Site Rule # 2*

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 25 novembre 2011 - 12:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Oh, I didn't know disagreeing with you was grounds for banning nowadays.

No, but changing the name of the person you're quoting and calling them dense is.

Getting 1 out of 2 wrong isn't that bad. Cut Saphra some slack:P

[111987]

@lotion
Don't change my argument. I said in the case of hitler, assassination would be a necessary evil. Just like killing balak for example. And they murdered a lot of people because their views didn't align with Cerberus. They killed the head of terra firma because the successor would be easier to manipulate. That is evil/immoral.

[GunMoth]

 I'm sure someone has already touched on this, so I apologize for redundancy. I read that entire post and don't feel like reading the progress of the thread. 


There are many retcons and incontinuities regarding the Cerberus organization. That, and the organization has one goal without any form of structure or limitations on independent operations. They can be open minded like Kelly or Jacob - or they can be Xenophobic murderous sociopaths like Kai Leng. You cannot really say that Cerberus is good or evil as it has no real concrete "establishment" in a sense. Their mantra is "at any cost". I believe this whole ideaology occured with TIM's knowledge of the immenant reaper invasion. He's scared. And - although we aren't 100% clear on his motives - I'd LIKE to believe he initiated many of his experiments during 1 and 2 because of this fear. However, that's just speculation. TIM essentially is throwing money at talented people and blindly says "make it happen" - I assume so that he can distance himself from some of the methods they use. Many Cerberus facilities complain about a push for "time" or "deadlines" - this is possibly because of the reaper invasion as well. 

The advancement of humanity as a whole in order to compete with other technologies is a noble goal. Competition is what drives advancement. However, a lot of your points regarding supremacism / genetics etc. are VERY idealistic. From what I understand you're saying that Bioware is trying too hard to demonize the study / practice of genetic modification. While in some cases I agree with genetic modification (fixing immune disorders and harmful birth defects etc.) - its a double edged sword. I disagree with the practice and realize the negative cultural impact that cosmetic genetic modifications (such as Miranda) can cause. The idea that humans have ideal traits and that they need to be altered in order to have these traits IS supremacism. 

"Supremacism is the belief that a particular race, species, ethnic group, religion, gender, sexual orientation, belief system orculture is superior to others and entitles those who identify with it to dominate, control or rule those who do not."

There are ALWAYS going to be scientists etc. who will use genetics as a device to further their own agendas. Many scientists are looking / studying the "homosexual gene" and while this is great as it furthers our understanding of sex, gender, and the mind - there are TONS of organizations who plan on using this information to genetically alter / "fix" the homosexual gene for religious reasons. This is the problem. Our society also has tons of image / social issues - especially with women. Genetically altering a WOMAN (Miranda) to essentially pander to the opposite sex undermines equality between the two sexes. :\\ 

Edit: Supremacism is bad as it undermines equality in general. 
Edit Edit: And by equality I mean that regardless of sex, sexual identity, sexual oreintation, race etc. that each group has the potential (and ability) to be intellectually competant and therefore deserves equal rights / representation within politics, media, and society. 

Modifié par GunMoth, 24 novembre 2011 - 08:45 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

@lotion
Don't change my argument. I said in the case of hitler, assassination would be a necessary evil. Just like killing balak for example. And they murdered a lot of people because their views didn't align with Cerberus. They killed the head of terra firma because the successor would be easier to manipulate. That is evil/immoral.

To you.

"Necessary evil" is defiend by what you consider necessary, what you consider "greater good" and what you consider evil.

Name one thing Cerberus does that other organizations (Council, Specters, other races) don't. The only difference is your approval (or lack thereoff)

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you don't abide by the Council's demands for the right to murder you, the only alternatives are the Terminus which will eat you alive... or fighting the Council, in which case they break your legs.
Congratulations: you've just defended an extortion racket setup.

Not really, you should just take a look at how realpolitik works IRL, it's not worst at all, just bigger. 

I don't see where is differ from the France-Monaco in real world: the two are liked entity, still are different entity.

I was unaware that modern France legalized slavery and the drug trade through Monaco.

I was just refering to linked government having different laws, like prostitution legal in France, illegal in Monaco. Such example exists with drugs and torture (like the famous Guantanamo Bay which depend on USA since 1902 but after the Justice Department advised that the Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp could be considered outside U.S. legal jurisdiction became a place were torture isn't illegal).

The Council would do the exact same as it already does: call them a terrorist group, attack them where they can, and you covert means or proxies to engage them in the Terminus once they've made themselves enough of a nuissance.

That's just baseless assumption unless Cerberus actually continue to stick its nose outside of its system which would effectively be a motive for war.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But feeling are part of a person. You cannot put them out of hte equation. A man who shoots another man and feels guilt and sadness, and a man who shoot another man and enjoys it and feels no remorse - they are hardly equal.

When it comes to results, they are totally equals.
Motives may sometimes be important (best exemple: survival), but feelings never are.

And to add on to your reply - people of the galaxy are dead anyway if the Reapers show up wihout us having a counter-weapons, so it makes no difference anyway.

As I said in a previous post, that's a point which can be debated because Cerberus screw up people quite a lot of times before Reapers events nor does their experiments (minus perhaps project Lazarus) would be by any means a Deus EX Machina to this situation, nor since research on Sovereign's remains people of the Galaxy are defenseless against reapers.

And those contaminated people are only trying to survive.

Then your example is badly chosen, as I don't see how agression for food would save them from death.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...
@lotion
Don't change my argument. I said in the case of hitler, assassination would be a necessary evil. Just like killing balak for example. And they murdered a lot of people because their views didn't align with Cerberus. They killed the head of terra firma because the successor would be easier to manipulate. That is evil/immoral.

To you.
"Necessary evil" is defiend by what you consider necessary, what you consider "greater good" and what you consider evil.
Name one thing Cerberus does that other organizations (Council, Specters, other races) don't. The only difference is your approval (or lack thereoff)

Actually, by the definition of "evil" I gave hitler "assasination" would not be a problem: you are not actually "assassinating" someone, you are "defending" yourself from being hurt by Hitler.

Modifié par Kakita Tatsumaru, 24 novembre 2011 - 09:09 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

GunMoth wrote...
The idea that humans have ideal traits and that they need to be altered in order to have these traits IS supremacism.

Erm..no, not really.

There are ALWAYS going to be scientists etc. who will use genetics as a device to further their own agendas. Many scientists are looking / studying the "homosexual gene" and while this is great as it furthers our understanding of sex, gender, and the mind - there are TONS of organizations who plan on using this information to genetically alter / "fix" the homosexual gene for religious reasons. This is the problem.

What problem?

Edit Edit: And by equality I mean that regardless of sex, sexual identity, sexual oreintation, race etc. that each group has the potential (and ability) to be intellectually competant and therefore deserves equal rights / representation within politics, media, and society. 

Why exaclty? Since when does capability has anything to do with that? Why should a minority have an equal presentation in politics and media?
By it's very nature politicians and media will pander and focus on the largest groups (to get money and votes). I don't see how one cna change that without laws that will do more harm than good in the end.

[FoxShadowblade]

Or hey: Cerberus is evil, and I'll shoot you if you read too much into it because I just read that whole thing and am now bored out of my mind, and am tempting to ask you: "Why so serious?"

And I'll be completely honest, the only reason I'm posting is because of the Jesus Loves You picture.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...
When it comes to results, they are totally equals.
Motives may sometimes be important (best exemple: survival), but feelings never are.

Yes they are. Felling and emotions and our thoughts - they define us.
If the only thing that matters are the results, then you are basicly just defending Cerberus.

Or do you mean "results only matter if the result is negative"? In which case you are cherrypicking.

And to add on to your reply - people of the galaxy are dead anyway if the Reapers show up wihout us having a counter-weapons, so it makes no difference anyway.

As I said in a previous post, that's a point which can be debated because Cerberus screw up people quite a lot of times before Reapers events nor does their experiments (minus perhaps project Lazarus) would be by any means a Deus EX Machina to this situation, nor since research on Sovereign's remains people of the Galaxy are defenseless against reapers.

How would you know? People of the galaxy ARE defenselss agaisnt hte reapers.
At the start of ME3, the homeworlds - the biggest and most protected planets - of most races have already fallen.

You dont' know what will be necessary to survive agaisnt the reapers. Every biotic may count. Every bullet may count. The experiments Cerberus did on geth and on indoctrination can meaan the differnce between life and death for the whole galaxy.
and it doesn't matter if the experiments happen before the reapers arrive - TIM knows they are coming. What the hell do you think he's been trying to do for hte last 20 years other than preparing humantiy to face them.

And those contaminated people are only trying to survive.

Then your example is badly chosen, as I don't see how agression for food would save them from death.

Because they have to eat, duh!