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[Lotion Soronarr]

ubermensch007 wrote...

111987 wrote... TIM, sees the aliens as allies against the Reapers,
but what about beyond that? He definetly isn't advocating peaceful
co-existence with them; he wishes humans to be dominate.I've always
seen TIM, as seeking to use the other races as simply tools against
the Reapers."

@111987: I so know what you mean... The Illusive Man - Mission Summary
Report that makes me the most indignant; is the one that comes after finishing Tali Zorah vas Normandy's Loyalty Mission.

What he says there about how the Migrant Fleet needs to go all out against the Reaper Fleet.Really just made me say,"You son of a ****! If its a bad idea for the quarians to go to war against the geth.Then how in the sam hill, is it a good idea for them to take on the effin Reapers in space combat!?"

The quarians can not afford to take the kind of looses other spacefaring races can.They are about as close to extinction as the Racchin Queen and her offspring are.What with there onky being 17
million or so quarian men women and children alive in the known galaxy.

Which is irrelevant. If the reapers win everyone dies. Including those 17 million women and children.
The Quarians have the biggest fleet in the galaxy. Off-load the women and children, upgrade the ships and use them.
Anything else is stupidity, as hte reapers won't leqave you alone.
That's not racism - that pure common sense. Combine all reasources you can and use them to it's fullest. OR die.

For TIM, to say something like that, just struck me as pretty damn racist.Contrary to what Gunnery Chief Ashley Williams seems to think
from her sacrificing your dog to save yourself metaphor in ME 1.Where she says, "It's not racism... not really."

It is racism! I define racism as  hostile action towards another person, of another race, without any merit. They don't owe you money.They didn't cheat on your sister.It's hate without reason.It can
manifest as a verbal or physical attack, or by exclusion.And not treating thier life as having the same level of intrinsic value as one of your own kind.

It's not racism. It's not hate.
It's called pragmatism and self-perservation. Sometimes also common sense.



@111987
Nope. He is advocating peacefull co-existence. Dominance is not the same as slavery or extinction.

[DeathDragon185]

I completely agree with OP

[Skirata129]

I'm inclined to think that cerberus is, or at least was, an alliance dark op. something that politicians at the top could not be seen to be a part of or would leak, so TIM was basically recruited, given an objective, contacts and some initial pointers and funding and told to run with it. things like that happen in real life when something needs doing that CANNOT be seen to have been perpetrated by a government if exposed.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


@111987
Nope. He is advocating peacefull co-existence. Dominance is not the same as slavery or extinction.

Dominance doesn't necesarrily mean slavery or extinction (although it could and many people in the galaxy believe that is what Cerberus is advocating), but it definitely doesn't mean 'peaceful co-existence'.

[Killjoy Cutter]

CerberusWarrior wrote...

111987 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

@lotion
Don't change my argument. I said in the case of hitler, assassination would be a necessary evil. Just like killing balak for example. And they murdered a lot of people because their views didn't align with Cerberus. They killed the head of terra firma because the successor would be easier to manipulate. That is evil/immoral.

To you.

"Necessary evil" is defiend by what you consider necessary, what you consider "greater good" and what you consider evil.

Name one thing Cerberus does that other organizations (Council, Specters, other races) don't. The only difference is your approval (or lack thereoff)

Just because other organizations commit evil actions doesn't excuse Cerberus. 

   



Oh no all Bioware did was erase Cerberus's work in ME 2 for ME 3 to please and keep happy all its paragon and alliance fans who whined and moaned during 2 about how they hated working with Cerberus . So its no wonder here on BSN no one dare challenges the other races or the so called almighty alliance on what they do wrong . I and many others know its a one sided majority here on BSN they basically forced us all to work with the alliance in 3 . 

Things that Cerberus did in ME2, like Teltin and Overlord and whatnot?  That kind of work?

[Killjoy Cutter]

It's certainly something very like racism, only directed towards another intelligent species instead of towards arbitrary, superficial divisions of appearance and culture within the human species.

Dominance is a zero-sum game. To achieve dominance requires that all competitors be placed into an inferior position through force, coercion, subterfuge, or other means. If that dominance is predicated on divisions of race, then... what else do you call it?

[MisterJB]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's certainly something very like racism, only directed towards another intelligent species instead of towards arbitrary, superficial divisions of appearance and culture within the human species.

Dominance is a zero-sum game. To achieve dominance requires that all competitors be placed into an inferior position through force, coercion, subterfuge, or other means. If that dominance is predicated on divisions of race, then... what else do you call it?

Citadel space, "Galactic Stability".

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 novembre 2011 - 07:42 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

MisterJB wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It's certainly something very like racism, only directed towards another intelligent species instead of towards arbitrary, superficial divisions of appearance and culture within the human species.

Dominance is a zero-sum game. To achieve dominance requires that all competitors be placed into an inferior position through force, coercion, subterfuge, or other means. If that dominance is predicated on divisions of race, then... what else do you call it?

Citadel space, "Galactic Stability".

I guess I missed the part of the previous games where one species dominates all others with absolute power.  Looked a lot more like a coalition of different powers, politically dominated by a few but with representation for many (not all) others.  Not that it didn't have all sorts fo faults of its own, but certainly not a model for what TIM claims to be after.

[MisterJB]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I guess I missed the part of the previous games where one species dominates all others with absolute power.
Looked a lot more like a coalition of different powers, politically dominated by a few but with representation for many (not all) others.  Not that it didn't have all sorts fo faults of its own, but certainly not a model for what TIM claims to be after.

Instead of one, it's three species who dominate all others with absolute power. You can say that the "lesser species" (Council's own words) can have representatives, but these are merely symbolic. What the asari, salarians and turians say, goes.
I don't understand why people automatically assume that a human led Galaxy would involve any form racial subjugation that the three Council races aren't using already. The human lead Council in ME2 has already started negotiations with the elcor and the hanar.

[Someone With Mass]

The turians, salarians and the asari are in power, because not only were they there first, they're also the strongest.

If the humans don't get everything they want, it's because they don't deserve it yet. I mean, they've gotten more in thirty years than most races have in a thousand. Be thankful of what you have, you ungrateful pricks.

[111987]

MisterJB wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I guess I missed the part of the previous games where one species dominates all others with absolute power.
Looked a lot more like a coalition of different powers, politically dominated by a few but with representation for many (not all) others.  Not that it didn't have all sorts fo faults of its own, but certainly not a model for what TIM claims to be after.

Instead of one, it's three species who dominate all others with absolute power. You can say that the "lesser species" (Council's own words) can have representatives, but these are merely symbolic. What the asari, salarians and turians say, goes.
I don't understand why people automatically assume that a human led Galaxy would involve any form racial subjugation that the three Council races aren't using already. The human lead Council in ME2 has already started negotiations with the elcor and the hanar.

Your view of a human-led galaxy is less moderate than a Cerberus view though. If TIM was satisfied with the level of control the humans had in ME2 (In a universe where the Council died) than Cerberus would have achieved its goal.

And the three Council species do not rule authoritatively. They regularly grant concessions to the lesser races because they know an authoritarian regime would benefit no-one.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...

The turians, salarians and the asari are in power, because not only were they there first, they're also the strongest.

Humanity needs to become the strongest species in the galaxy.

If the humans don't get everything they want, it's because they don't deserve it yet.

And exactly who decides what we deserve or don't? The Council? What gives them the right, their bigger guns?

I mean, they've gotten more in thirty years than most races have in a thousand. Be thankful of what you have, you ungrateful pricks.

What exactly should humans be grateful for? Everything we have was paid with human blood, sweat and tears.
Also, when did you or your Shepard stop being human?

111987 wrote...
Your view of a human-led galaxy is less moderate than a Cerberus view though. If TIM was satisfied with the level of control the humans had in ME2 (In a universe where the Council died) than Cerberus would have achieved its goal.

The level of control humans have is not acceptable. Even after saving the Council and being invited to join them, they use our ships to supplement the Citadel fleet and when we need help to protect our colonies that are dissapearing one by one, there's a 3 Vs 1 vote against humans and we achieve nothing.

And the three Council species do not rule authoritatively. They regularly grant concessions to the lesser races because they know an authoritarian regime would benefit no-one.

Can you give me an example where the Big 3 races acted selflessly in favor of a "lesser race"?

[111987]

MisterJB wrote...

The level of control humans have is not acceptable. Even after saving the Council and being invited to join them, they use our ships to supplement the Citadel fleet and when we need help to protect our colonies that are dissapearing one by one, there's a 3 Vs 1 vote against humans and we achieve nothing.

I said in a universe where the Council was killed and humanity runs the show.

MisterJB wrote...
Can you give me an example where the Big 3 races acted selflessly in favor of a "lesser race"?

In "Mass Effect: Revelations", the Council's response to the Alliance's illegal AI research was very meek, when they very well could have pulled a Quarian on them.

[MisterJB]

111987 wrote...
I said in a universe where the Council was killed and humanity runs the show.

Oh, you are right. I apologize.
Still, certainly not enough. For example, the turians are not helping with patrolling Citadel space and there are news of humans being attacked by former Council races.

In "Mass Effect: Revelations", the Council's response to the Alliance's illegal AI research was very meek, when they very well could have pulled a Quarian on them.

Humans are not quarians. Our standing in the galactic community was very strong, even at the time, and our race had not been almost exterminated in a war where no other council race participated (nice of them, yes?)
The Council's response was weak because humans had a very competent ambassador who did not abide by their terms, otherwise the consequences would have been terrible (complete alien oversight, for one), and because we were too strong for them to start a war with just because of one Alliance station researching AI.

[Someone With Mass]

Oh gee wiz, I wonder what.

Let's see. They've earned a spot on the CITADEL COUNCIL, not one, but two Spectres as of ME3, invented medi-gel, got a license to create AIs, are actually authorized to construct dreadnoughts, have expanded throughout many systems with little to no ramifications beyond the batarian attacks and the geth attack (which happened just because Eden Prime had a Prothean beacon) and they're controlling a good chunk out of C-Sec.

Pretty much everything positive happened because the Citadel Council let them, while other races haven't been given the opportunity at all.

And no, humanity doesn't need to be the strongest to flourish in this galaxy. When you're on the throne, someone will always try to knock you down.

Also, if the Council let every race gain just as much as they have, there'd be power struggles and more than likely civil wars. I can understand them for not wanting that.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Let's see. They've earned a spot on the CITADEL COUNCIL, not one, but two Spectres as of ME3, invented medi-gel, got a license to create AIs, are actually authorized to construct dreadnoughts, have expanded throughout many systems with little to no ramifications beyond the batarian attacks and the geth attack (which happened just because Eden Prime had a Prothean beacon) and they're controlling a good chunk out of C-Sec.

Exactly, we've earned every single one of those things. Nothing was given, so there's nothing we should be thankfull for.

Pretty much everything positive happened because the Citadel Council let them,

The Citadel Council didn't "let" us do anything. Or are you forgetting Shanxi?
Humanity has risen because we are intelligent, strong, resourceful and hard working. Not because the Council favored us.

while other races haven't been given the opportunity at all
And no, humanity doesn't need to be the strongest to flourish in this galaxy. When you're on the throne, someone will always try to knock you down.

Also, if the Council let every race gain just as much as they have, there'd be power struggles and more than likely civil wars. I can understand them for not wanting that.

So, you acknowledge that the Council works towards keeping the three main races in power while keeping everyone else down.
However, you also claim that humanity should not reach for the "throne". Basically, you seem to be content with humans forever being a "lesser race"

[someone else]

'Twas a human who, reflecting upon human nature, observed, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." OTH, "democracy" is unworkable on a macro scale [US of A proof of that] - power blocs, entrenched interests, and demagoguery - will always dominate the affair of men, and I suspect, aliens - Quoth Kaiden, "They're not aliens, just people."

[Someone With Mass]

And what's so bad with being a lesser race?

If any of the other races had felt really mistreated, they would've more than likely resigned their post.

By the way. That little coup during the battle of the Citadel which can make the new Council a all-human one? It would've never flied if it was remotely realistic. Because I think most races would've been pretty outraged by a move like that if it had any sort of realism in it instead of them being slightly grumpy for about a year or so. A more likely scenario would've been a serious political conflict with no permanent leaders at the helm, if not war between the Council races and humanity.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 29 novembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

MisterJB wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I guess I missed the part of the previous games where one species dominates all others with absolute power.
Looked a lot more like a coalition of different powers, politically dominated by a few but with representation for many (not all) others.  Not that it didn't have all sorts fo faults of its own, but certainly not a model for what TIM claims to be after.

Instead of one, it's three species who dominate all others with absolute power. You can say that the "lesser species" (Council's own words) can have representatives, but these are merely symbolic. What the asari, salarians and turians say, goes.

I don't understand why people automatically assume that a human led Galaxy would involve any form racial subjugation that the three Council races aren't using already. The human lead Council in ME2 has already started negotiations with the elcor and the hanar.

Actually, after ME1 (depending on choices) it's four species on the Citadel Council. 

Four instead of one... 

[Sgt Stryker]

Someone With Mass wrote...

By the way. That little coup during the battle of the Citadel which can make the new Council a all-human one? It would've never flied if it was remotely realistic. Because I think most races would've been pretty outraged by a move like that if it had any sort of realism in it instead of them being slightly grumpy for about a year or so. A more likely scenario would've been a serious political conflict with no permanent leaders at the helm, if not war between the Council races and humanity.

Let's also not forget that most governments have an order of succession, just in case of such a disaster.

[CroGamer002]

^Considering from every Citadel defense fleet only Alliance ship left standing, I think it would be realistic for humans to put their own puppets on Council seat.

[Killjoy Cutter]

What?

[phimseto]

I have to admit...the more I think about it and see it in the promo videos, the more it really bothers me that Cerberus is such an upfront "bad guy" in this next game. The entire second game has the Illusive Man so single-minded about the Reaper threat that, even with his post-invasion aspirations, I can't imagine how or why the organization would do *anything* to detract from that war effort. It seems utterly contradictory to the organization and the Illusive Man as laid out in the last game.

I don't like the idea of having to face them *at all*. Even my paragon playthrough (which is my primary), I left the organization on good terms, determined to have them as an ally for the coming conflict. I hope there's a middle ground in the game somewhere, because if they get reduced to "enemy you kill when you aren't killing reapers and husks", then I am going to be pretty darn disappointed.

[Someone With Mass]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Let's also not forget that most governments have an order of succession, just in case of such a disaster.

That too.

I mean, we're talking about the Council that exterminated one race and nearly drove the other one to extinction, just because the krogans began to expand.

Do you really think they would back down from raining fire upon you and your planets if you took out their leaders and replaced them with your own?

[CroGamer002]

^No, Council did not exterminate Rachni, they just didn't bother to stop Krogans doing that.

And for Krogans they were getting destroyed until Turians showed up.