535 réponses à ce sujet

[CerberusWarrior]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

You have a very narrow definition of what "dominance" means. It doesn't have to mean humanity grinding every species beneath its heel. All it has to mean is humanity being the strongest, the wealthiest, the most influential.

Dominance by definition means power and influence over others and I doubt anyone would bow down/give up that power willingly.

   


after playing ME 1 again and seeing the utter disrespect the alien council has for humanity dam right I will do what it takes to make humans really strong in ME 3 .

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Those attacks will only increase if humanity tries to increase its dominance. One race cannot dominate the others; the galaxy is simply too big.

You have a very narrow definition of what "dominance" means. It doesn't have to mean humanity grinding every species beneath its heel. All it has to mean is humanity being the strongest, the wealthiest, the most influential.

If Cerberus was content with just being the strongest, wealthiest, and most influential, than they should be satisfied in a universe where the council died and humanity is on top. And yet they aren't. Which means they want humanity to become even more powerful.

[111987]

CerberusWarrior wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

You have a very narrow definition of what "dominance" means. It doesn't have to mean humanity grinding every species beneath its heel. All it has to mean is humanity being the strongest, the wealthiest, the most influential.

Dominance by definition means power and influence over others and I doubt anyone would bow down/give up that power willingly.

   


after playing ME 1 again and seeing the utter disrespect the alien council has for humanity dam right I will do what it takes to make humans really strong in ME 3 .

I'll say it again;

"Which is why the Council allowed Humans to join both the Spectres and
the Council in less than 30 years? Despite other races not getting
either of those honors after several centuries?"

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Of-course they won't give it up willingly. However they will give it up one way or the other.

lolno.

Stop being such a massive hypocrite and I might sympathize.

[Kaiser Shepard]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

The turians were completely, totally, and solely responsible for starting the First Contact War.

The Council intervened in humanity's favor because they recognized humanity's potential as both a counter to the batarians (who the Council had for years been unable and/or unwilling to control) and as a military counter-balance to the turians themselves who were growing dangerously out of control (ie launching unprovoked wars of conquest against a new species they encountered).

No. Humanity was recklessly activating every Mass Relay in sight. While they did not know, such an action is illegal as it can lead to Rachni-like incidents. The Turians were simply upholding the law and trying to prevent a potentially catastrophic situation from emerging.

Son, we were the Rachni-like 'incident'.

And sure, expect every species you've never come across before to non-sensically adhere to laws they've A.) never even heard of and B.) did not (yet) agree with.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 30 novembre 2011 - 12:18 .

[General User]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

The turians were completely, totally, and solely responsible for starting the First Contact War.

The Council intervened in humanity's favor because they recognized humanity's potential as both a counter to the batarians (who the Council had for years been unable and/or unwilling to control) and as a military counter-balance to the turians themselves who were growing dangerously out of control (ie launching unprovoked wars of conquest against a new species they encountered).

No. Humanity was recklessly activating every Mass Relay in sight. While they did not know, such an action is illegal as it can lead to Rachni-like incidents. The Turians were simply upholding the law and trying to prevent a potentially catastrophic situation from emerging.

Please explain the connection between "let's prevent the activation of relay" and "let's conquer and vassalize this species without so much as an explanation as to why." 

[Someone With Mass]

CerberusWarrior wrote...
after playing ME 1 again and seeing the utter disrespect the alien council has for humanity dam right I will do what it takes to make humans really strong in ME 3 .

Yeah, giving them a seat on the Council and two Spectres, letting them have one of the largest fleets in Citadel space and control a part of C-Sec is so disrespectful.

Tell me, which other races have accomplished something like that?

None? Yep. None.

[111987]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

The turians were completely, totally, and solely responsible for starting the First Contact War.

The Council intervened in humanity's favor because they recognized humanity's potential as both a counter to the batarians (who the Council had for years been unable and/or unwilling to control) and as a military counter-balance to the turians themselves who were growing dangerously out of control (ie launching unprovoked wars of conquest against a new species they encountered).

No. Humanity was recklessly activating every Mass Relay in sight. While they did not know, such an action is illegal as it can lead to Rachni-like incidents. The Turians were simply upholding the law and trying to prevent a potentially catastrophic situation from emerging.

Son, we were the Rachni-like 'incident'.

And sure, expect every species you've never come across before to non-sensically adhere to laws they've A.) never even heard of before and B.) did not agree with.

Yeah, that's not the point. The Turians had an obligation to uphold the law. We don't know if the Turians warned the humans first, but regardless, they were upholding the law. If a man murders another person, he isn't excused because he didn't know the law.

[MisterJB]

111987 wrote...
Those attacks will only increase if humanity tries to increase its dominance. One race cannot dominate the others; the galaxy is simply too big. The best humanity could hope for would be to join the Council...which they did. To seek even more power would be folly; even the Turians understand this. In their Codex entry they know that trying to subvert the other races would cause them to lose far more than they would gain.

I am not suggesting that Humans should rule by themselves. I saved the Council in ME1 and I would welcome a system of government where every race would have a representative on the Council.
What I want is for humanity to become dominant. The biggest fleet, the most advanced technology, the largest territory, the richest economy.

Fair points, for sure. Well another case where the Council was friendly to the lesser races was during the First Contact War, where the Turians were forced to pay steep reparations despite not being any more responsible for the war than the humans. This shows the Council races are willing to take a hit for the greater good.

I think General User said it best.

General User wrote...

The turians were completely, totally, and solely responsible for starting the First Contact War.

The Council intervened in humanity's favor because they recognized humanity's potential as both a counter to the batarians (who the Council had for years been unable and/or unwilling to control) and as a military counter-balance to the turians themselves who were growing dangerously out of control (ie launching unprovoked wars of conquest against a new species they encountered).

Also, it's not like the embassies don't have any influence on galactic politics.

The embassies only have as much influence as the Council gives them. They don't have a say in the actual decisions.

111987 wrote...
No. Humanity was recklessly activating every Mass Relay in sight. While they did not know, such an action is illegal as it can lead to Rachni-like incidents. The Turians were simply upholding the law and trying to prevent a potentially catastrophic situation from emerging.

At the time, humanity was not bound by the laws of the Citadel. Also, there's a difference between stopping us from activating a relay and ocuppying what could have been our homeworld for all the turians knew.

[111987]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

The turians were completely, totally, and solely responsible for starting the First Contact War.

The Council intervened in humanity's favor because they recognized humanity's potential as both a counter to the batarians (who the Council had for years been unable and/or unwilling to control) and as a military counter-balance to the turians themselves who were growing dangerously out of control (ie launching unprovoked wars of conquest against a new species they encountered).

No. Humanity was recklessly activating every Mass Relay in sight. While they did not know, such an action is illegal as it can lead to Rachni-like incidents. The Turians were simply upholding the law and trying to prevent a potentially catastrophic situation from emerging.

Please explain the connection between "let's prevent the activation of relay" and "let's conquer and vassalize this species without so much as an explanation as to why." 

Wait, what? That didn't happen...the Turians were not trying to conquer and vassalize humanity.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Yeah, giving them a seat on the Council and two Spectres, letting them have one of the largest fleets in Citadel space and control a part of C-Sec is so disrespectful.

Tell me, which other races have accomplished something like that?

None? Yep. None.

Stop saying that the Council gave us anything. We earned all of it.
And the disrespect derivates from their refusal to protect our colonies which were inside Citadel Space.

[DiebytheSword]

General User wrote...

The turians were completely, totally, and solely responsible for starting the First Contact War.

The Council intervened in humanity's favor because they recognized humanity's potential as both a counter to the batarians (who the Council had for years been unable and/or unwilling to control) and as a military counter-balance to the turians themselves who were growing dangerously out of control (ie launching unprovoked wars of conquest against a new species they encountered).

Not so.  The humans were using a network in space that did not belong to them, the Turians went overboard on upholding the law.

Both sides are at fault.  This is why we call these things conflict, because interests and resources did not align to the satisfaction of both parties.  Thus, war broke out to settle it over a pile of bodies, as happens in all of nature.  To blame one side or the other solely shows a lack of critical thinking on the entirety of the subject from both sides.

Now there are plenty of times when one side or the other clearly has blame for what was done, like the morning war.  The Quarians were clearly in the wrong to create AI and then try to commit genocide against it.  Thus the Morning War is there fault.  The coming war will be the Geth's fault for commiting genocide in return and expecting that species to never return for its homeworld.  Both sides ultimately have blame, neither side's hands are clean.

Much the same as Humanity and the Council.  Both have been immense douche bags and expected to be loved in the name of self interest.

[MisterJB]

111987 wrote...
Wait, what? That didn't happen...the Turians were not trying to conquer and vassalize humanity.

Yes, they were. It's what turians do.
For all they knew, Shanxi could have been our homeworld and its garrison our main fleet.

[General User]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

The turians were completely, totally, and solely responsible for starting the First Contact War.

The Council intervened in humanity's favor because they recognized humanity's potential as both a counter to the batarians (who the Council had for years been unable and/or unwilling to control) and as a military counter-balance to the turians themselves who were growing dangerously out of control (ie launching unprovoked wars of conquest against a new species they encountered).

No. Humanity was recklessly activating every Mass Relay in sight. While they did not know, such an action is illegal as it can lead to Rachni-like incidents. The Turians were simply upholding the law and trying to prevent a potentially catastrophic situation from emerging.

Please explain the connection between "let's prevent the activation of relay" and "let's conquer and vassalize this species without so much as an explanation as to why." 

Wait, what? That didn't happen...the Turians were not trying to conquer and vassalize humanity.

They weren't?  Then why did they invade, occupy, and blast to rubble what they believed to be our homeworld without any explanation?

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

If Cerberus was content with just being the strongest, wealthiest, and most influential, than they should be satisfied in a universe where the council died and humanity is on top.

...probably because humanity can lose its position as quickly as it attained it. To stay in a position of power requires maintenance.

I think your views of what Cerberus is is different from what Cerberus's views really are. Cerberus isn't trying to maintain humanity's power; Cerberus is trying to increase it. TIM pretty much says this when talking about the Collector Base.

[111987]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

The turians were completely, totally, and solely responsible for starting the First Contact War.

The Council intervened in humanity's favor because they recognized humanity's potential as both a counter to the batarians (who the Council had for years been unable and/or unwilling to control) and as a military counter-balance to the turians themselves who were growing dangerously out of control (ie launching unprovoked wars of conquest against a new species they encountered).

No. Humanity was recklessly activating every Mass Relay in sight. While they did not know, such an action is illegal as it can lead to Rachni-like incidents. The Turians were simply upholding the law and trying to prevent a potentially catastrophic situation from emerging.

Please explain the connection between "let's prevent the activation of relay" and "let's conquer and vassalize this species without so much as an explanation as to why." 

Wait, what? That didn't happen...the Turians were not trying to conquer and vassalize humanity.

They weren't?  Then why did they invade, occupy, and blast to rubble what they believed to be our homeworld without any explanation?

The biggest human colony is Terra Nova, with 4 million people. There is absolutely no way the Turians though Shanxi was the human homeworld if they had less than 4 million people living there.

[Someone With Mass]

MisterJB wrote...
Stop saying that the Council gave us anything. We earned all of it.
And the disrespect derivates from their refusal to protect our colonies which were inside Citadel Space.

They gave the human two Spectres (the Council selecting its own agents? NO WAI) and they pretty genereously gave us a seat on the Council after one battle. 

Oh, and when you're warned about something, but you do it anyway, you have only yourself to blame.

[Kaiser Shepard]

111987 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

The turians were completely, totally, and solely responsible for starting the First Contact War.

The Council intervened in humanity's favor because they recognized humanity's potential as both a counter to the batarians (who the Council had for years been unable and/or unwilling to control) and as a military counter-balance to the turians themselves who were growing dangerously out of control (ie launching unprovoked wars of conquest against a new species they encountered).

No. Humanity was recklessly activating every Mass Relay in sight. While they did not know, such an action is illegal as it can lead to Rachni-like incidents. The Turians were simply upholding the law and trying to prevent a potentially catastrophic situation from emerging.

Son, we were the Rachni-like 'incident'.

And sure, expect every species you've never come across before to non-sensically adhere to laws they've A.) never even heard of before and B.) did not agree with.

Yeah, that's not the point. The Turians had an obligation to uphold the law. We don't know if the Turians warned the humans first, but regardless, they were upholding the law. If a man murders another person, he isn't excused because he didn't know the law.

Totally different scenario; imagine trying to invade an alien homeword with a fleet of our own, then expect the aliens to adhere to the Geneva Convention when they take some of us prisoner.

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

Please explain the connection between "let's prevent the activation of relay" and "let's conquer and vassalize this species without so much as an explanation as to why."  

Wait, what? That didn't happen...the Turians were not trying to conquer and vassalize humanity.

Oh no, they were getting ready to wipe us off the face of the galaxy.

[111987]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Totally different scenario; imagine trying to invade an alien homeword with a fleet of our own, then expect the aliens to adhere to the Geneva Convention when they take some of us prisoner.

That's a different scenario as well. What humanity was doing endangered the entire galaxy. It wasn't the ideal solution to simply attack the human ships, but when the risk is so great, you have to do whatever it takes to eliminate that risk. It's a very Renegade, or even Cerberus, way of operating.

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Oh no, they were getting ready to wipe us off the face of the galaxy.

There were less than 4 million people on Shanxi. There's no way the Turians thought that was our homeworld, nor were they just bombarding us without cause. They occupied, not destroyed. Yes I know they would bombard entire blocks to take out strike teams, but that is very different from the genocide you are implying.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

I think your views of what Cerberus is is different from what Cerberus's views really are. Cerberus isn't trying to maintain humanity's power; Cerberus is trying to increase it.

Yes, humanity's power isn't all that great yet. Humanity has only taken the first step. We need enough power to be secure. There is no reason to hold ourselves back.

Secure from who? The other Council races?

Don't you realize that the attempted consolidation of power makes humanity's power less secure by angering the other races?