535 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Shepard]

Cute, but once again you're not really doing anything but trolling.

[Eckswhyzee]

GodWood wrote...

Love it, especially the bit on technology.
Playing through this series I can't help but think Bioware has this moral lesson to teach that 'technology is bad'.
No Bioware, technology is not 'bad', pull your head out of the dark ages.

I really don't get this vibe from Mass Effect at all. Cerberus is evil because they're creating super-soldiers? Woops, the Alliance is already doing that to its soldiers with its legal gene mods, as described in the Codex. And that small sidequest on Noveria. As for Miranda and her modifications, I thought that was more about the whole megalomaniac controlling father who's so full of himself he can't get anyone laid. But maybe that's just me. If Bioware are trying to teach this moral lesson they're not doing a very good job of it.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Arcian wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Cute, but once again you're not really doing anything but trolling.

As opposed to you doing nothing but being butthurt and spreading lies?

I am neither, yet I am everything you could ever dream to be.

[Ieldra]

Silent X wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Which, yet again, is another thing I’m highly allergic against: using emotional manipulation to drive a moral point home. As a result of this, after UNC: Missing Marines, I was absolutely determined to give Cerberus as much benefit of the doubt as I could.

I get what you're saying, and I understand wanting to act in a contrary way when presented with something that feels patronizing, but a knee-jerk reaction against an attempted emotional manipulation is still an emotional reaction. Being unsure what to think about the mission at this point would be rational, but being determined to give Cerberus the benefit of the doubt as much as possible still strikes me as an emotional response. . . just not the one the game was going for.

You have a point. And actually, I don't play that way. Most of my Shepards are slightly more Paragon than Renegade, and none of them really believe things like "Pragia wasn't really Cerberus" (though the presentation failure still stands). But the presentation feels like anti-human-advancement propaganda, I resent that, and as result I might come across as being more of a Renegade than I really am. 

Ieldra2 wrote...
But it doesn’t end here. Although not directly Cerberus-related, Bioware tried this again with Miranda’s genetic engineering. The "genetic aristocracy supremacism agenda" hinted at when Miranda spoke of her father was being used to morally discredit Miranda’s genetic engineering, driven home by her infertility in LotSB as some sort of "nothing good can come of it" message.

I can see how Miranda could be read that way, but if that was the writers' intent, I'm afraid it was lost on me. I took her genetic modification as chiefly relevant to her character as an individual. It explains both her general arrogance and her underlying insecurity. She knows that she has above-average abilities in some ways and as such feels that she's better than others, but this has also made her prey to a fierce perfectionism that makes her feel she has absolutely no excuse for ever failing at anything. I also agree with AdmiralCheez's point about Miranda's "genetic perfection" being a commentary on class divisions.

Admittedly it is all very vague, but the fact that Miranda's genetic engineering can be read that way, especially after LotSB, makes me fear the worst for ME3. That's why I never miss an opportunity to say that while her upbringing as nothing more than a tool of her father's was, for lack of a better word, "evil", her genetic engineering wasn't. Had she been brought up with more love, she'd have more self-esteem, regardless of the source of her supreme competence.

As for the class division commentary, I guess that's possible, but nicely subverted by MIranda's statement in the Renegade romance that "given your genetic records, you're practically a bloody perfect human specimen". Which is particularly apt if you're an Earthborn Shepard with a distinctly lower-class origin (which my main Shepard is). Hmm....need to think more about that.   

Ieldra2 wrote...
Of course, Cerberus does quite obviously not represent that face as a whole, but since you can, for various reasons already mentioned, dismiss the more monstrous acts as "not being the real Cerberus", it becomes possible to posit that Cerberus advances a desirable agenda, and that apart of a few "accidents", it goes about it by means that are, if morally problematic, nonetheless justified.

This is where I have to disagree. I think I get what you're saying, but I don't come to the same conclusion. I've never bought that the experiments at the Teltin facility or Project Overlord were "not the real Cerberus." What I see in those instances is the Illusive Man, an individual wholly focused on results, giving a cell a goal and license to do whateve they see fit in order to achieve that goal. His purported ignorance of just what was going on in these instances strikes me not as innocence but rather as a savvy leader making sure he always maintains plausible deniability. If he really cared what his subordinates were up to, he would pay more attention. By giving them free reign, he maximizes his chances to get what he wants from their operations while keeping a distance that allows him to claim, "I didn't know what they were doing." I'm convinced that he makes a point of not knowing what his cells are doing just so he can pull out that excuse. And yes, I am definitely making an inference here, but it fits the available information, as far as I can see, so I think it's as valid as any other inference.

I didn't meant to imply I bought into the reasoning that certain things "aren't really Cerberus". I only wanted to say that for those who wish that it were so - which *does* include me - it would be possible, if not exactly savvy, to posit that. Which may be the reason that there are quite a few Cerberus apologists on these forums.

It's as naledgeborn said: We who agree to the mission statement of "advancement and preservation of humanity", who would be willing to use means that any regular covert operations group would use to further that agenda but deplore Cerberus' more extreme methods, have a hard time coming up with a faction to support in the ME universe. It's not surprising that some would choose Cerberus against their better knowledge.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Now Cerberus was introduced in ME2 a ruthless "result at all costs" type of organization. As which it shouldn’t have been too different from the salarian STG or even the Spectres. Besides, in the ME games we find ourselves in a war for survival of all organic sentient life in the galaxy, which can reasonably be said to justify rather drastic means. Arrival provides the best example.

People may be mislead into believing that Cerberus represents that kind of ruthlessness. If it did, using anything more than the least unacceptable methods to further their goals would make no sense. Still they do. Which should cause people to withdraw their support. So why don't they?

Cerberus, as I see it, faces essentially no accountability. The only authority anyone in Cerberus answers to is the Illusive Man, who as far as I can judge is ultimately only concerned with garnering power for himself as the man-behind-the-curtain in a galaxy where humans subjugate the other races. (This view of TIM was cemented for me by the paragon ending of ME2, in which he asserts that "Cerberus is humanity." If he believes that Cerberus is humanity, well, the Illusive Man basically is Cerberus, ergo. . . )

The point where he said that was certainly the point of no return. After that, it was practically guaranteed there he would be an enemy in ME3. I can even see the psychological mechanism by which he got that way, and that the lack of even limited accountability may have contributed to his becoming who he is. The only sad thing is that he may have started out with the very admirable goal of protecting humanity against an unknown threat, and that his mission statement gets dragged down with him.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2011 - 11:37 .

[Eckswhyzee]

Saphra Deden wrote...

In the future I need to remember to save a link to every quote Bioware makes so I can post it threads like this.

Is this about that some interview with someone on Mass Effect?
I know this is very vague, but I can half-remember some staff talking about the whole technology/Geth/evil AI thing. If you can find a link that would be much appreciated.

[GodWood]

Arcian wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Cute, but once again you're not really doing anything but trolling.

As opposed to you doing nothing but being butthurt and spreading lies?

Incorrect usage of term 'butthurt'.

[HiroVoid]

Uh...actually, I think they pretty much said while they had a loose desription of the triology, it pretty much was making it up as it went along. Originally, you were actually able to join up with Cerberus in ME1.

[Ausstig]

Where did you read/hear that?

[Kaiser Shepard]

Arcian wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Cute, but once again you're not really doing anything but trolling.

As opposed to you doing nothing but being butthurt and spreading lies?

I am neither, yet I am everything you could ever dream to be.

A buttsore loser who spends his every waking hour trying to convince people that ME3 sucks and that BioWare is the source of all evil in the universe?

No thanks.

Is it really that difficult for you to grasp people's intentions?

[Someone With Mass]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Is it really that difficult for you to grasp people's intentions?

There's a difference between not understanding and not caring.

[SNascimento]

Very interesting.
.
There were some cool things to think about in this text, especially the evil by association thing. I had never heard the term before but seeing it now, it strikes clear to me one of the reasons I never thought Cerberus was evil, or at least not all evil: I didn't make that associations. I agree 100% when you say that super soldiers is not only an asset to total domination and the Miranda exemple as a "rolemodel" to humanity is something I always thought.
.
One point that I disagree is that I didn't get the impression that Bioware is trying at all cost point out Cerberus as a superevil organization. Taking Overload for exemple, it seemed to me it was a controled and effective facility, with perfect work contidions (although with high risks). David's situation was much more a result of Dr. Archer's actions than anyother thing.
.
If anything, Overload just showed to me how Cerberus is able to handle vast operations.

Modifié par SNascimento, 22 novembre 2011 - 12:18 .

[Ieldra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

But it doesn’t end here. Although not directly Cerberus-related, Bioware tried this again with Miranda’s genetic engineering. The "genetic aristocracy supremacism agenda" hinted at when Miranda spoke of her father was being used to morally discredit Miranda’s genetic engineering, driven home by her infertility in LotSB as some sort of "nothing good can come of it" message. Not only didn’t I buy into that, but this annoyed me beyond all measure, because I happen to believe that genetic improvement is highly desirable, and it is *factually* not necessarily tied to any any sinister agenda. Again, an evil cause was being used to discredit a technology. At this point, I was willing to side with the villains just to make the point.

That was the message?! I've been completely missing it then.

Possibly I'm a little oversensitive to that. Must be because in my country, there are so many people with a visceral, irrational hatred of anything that even remotely looks like genetic engineering.

I thought infertility was a desirable trait. Biological reproduction is obsolete anyways, and infertility serves only to enhance sexual pleasure.

This is why we've often debated if Miranda - who wants children - after she's reconciled with her origins, would use advanced reproductiion technologies to have biological offspring. But - you don't seriously believe the ME team would allow such a message in their video games, do you? That would be...well...unconventional. Can't have that. I can see the DA team going for it, but ME? That would be a surprise. A pleasant one, that's for sure, but I'll believe in such an outcome when I see it. 

Ieldra2 wrote...
As a result, the evils of Akuze and the Teltin facility appeared to be separate from the Cerberus agenda, accidents, so to speak, for which of course TIM would have more or less responsibility, but which were never intended.

I thought Teltin was mostly a success, considering that Jack turned out to be comparable to Samara/Morinth in terms of Biotic power.

The success is debatable, but I'll let that stand. The way they talked about the means, that was the real problem. If you "go fast" through a resource as valuable as biotic children, you've crossed over from Pragmatic Villainy into Evil Idiocy.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2011 - 12:07 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Arcian wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Is it really that difficult for you to grasp people's intentions?

Is it really that difficult for you to stop whining and find another game to like instead of b!tching and moaning about this one like a spoiled child who didn't get what he wanted for christmas?

You're really quite insistent on calling people stuff like "buttsore loser" and "spoiled child" while acting like a particularly pertinent example of just that yourself, aren't you?

[HiroVoid]

Ausstig wrote...

Where did you read/hear that?

Can't remember exactly where, but I remember it being a developer reply.  Basically, I sum it as them basically having a loose idea on what they wanted to do throughout the trilogy, but since it's loose, it's easy to change and manipulate.

[HiroVoid]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Daro'Xen is said to be insane because she wants to control the geth. However at the same time we've seen Cerberus, the Heretics, the Orthodox Geth, and the Reapers do exactly that.

Comparing Xen to Cerberus, heretics, and reapers isn't really a good comparison.  The Orthodox Geth however is a better comparison when you take Legion's talk about why it's fine to brainwash the heretics.

[NorDee65]

Thumbs up, OP, for this thread...
Having stated that, I don't necessarily agree with all of your points;).

RPGamers play their role either as "themselves" (meaning: how would I react if thrown in a situation like this) or as someone completely different to their IRL personality. And certainly there are many variations between these two extremes. Bioware provides us the playground and furniture to diddle away. And concerning Cerberus they have given us a mixed menue: in creating events which depict them at least as irresponsible, if not evil on the one hand and in reviving Shephard and providing Normandy II plus crew on the other. And for those that have read it, they have given inside information on TIM, which might (or might not) tip the scales in favour of Cerberus. As a gamer I can run the whole gamut of supporting or opposing Cerberus with my various characters.

And as a living being I can also ask myself: would I really support Cerberus IRL? For me two points stand out.
1) Cerberus is a secret organisation, which means they can do things and can get away with them, which leads to
2) if you are not held accountable for your actions the line to cross might get lower and lower and in the end acts are initiated which the public would recognise even as evil

The idea of advancing the human race is not a bad one (looking at the state of the world, we could do with a bit of advancing), but that's when things get iffy:
- who decides what (or who) gets advanced
- how is the advancing done (gradually or rapidly, forced or voluntarily etc.)

In the end, human history has a tendency to show, if there is a "Master Race", it needs people it can be masters of. Judging by what Cerberus has stated, they would choose, who gets advanced and how, and they certainly would like to dominate the other species, even though on an individual level members of Cerberus might disagree with that.

[HiroVoid]

Saphra Deden wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Comparing Xen to Cerberus, heretics, and reapers isn't really a good comparison.  The Orthodox Geth however is a better comparison when you take Legion's talk about why it's fine to brainwash the heretics.

Why isn't it a good comparison? My point was that all those other groups controlling the geth proved it was possible. It was so possible that it was dangerous and had to be stopped. So why can't Xen do it?

Oh.  I thought it was crazy as in evil.  Yeah.  It's very possible to do so.