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[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

(Personally, I don't care that Cerberus is trying to find ways to make soldiers more effective.  I care that they're recklessly messing around with Rachni, creepers, husks, and thresher maws in the attempt to do it.)

What makes you say they were being reckless? Other than the rachni experiments all of their projects were doing fine or had done fine until Shepard kicked in the door.

I seem to recall husks running around a colony or two as well, where Cerberus experiments had gone bad. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I seem to recall husks running around a colony or two as well, where Cerberus experiments had gone bad. 

Those experiments were not being run by Cerberus, that was Exo-Geni. Cerberus was only linked to them because at some point they picked up samples and then left. They didn't destroy the colony or set the experiments up in the first place.

I'll elaborate.

On Feros you find two logs which point to Chasca and Nodacrux. Nodacrux is where Thorian Creepers are being studied by an Exo-Geni team. The logs point to Exo-Geni wanting to cover this up after the base goes dark.

The other log, refering to Chasca, mentions an Exo-Geni employer feeling uneasy dealing with "this Cerberus group" after Cerberus came and picked up some samples. When you reach the colony you find it overrun with husks and many dragons teeth scattered around. The final dialogue box when the mission is complete says "This Cerberus group has a lot to answer for here". However nothing other than the first log that pointed you there indicates Cerberus had anything to do with it.

My honest opinion would be that part of the mission was cut. Maybe originally it was indeed a Cerberus experiment, but in the final product it clearly wasn't. The final dialogue is probably an artifact from an earlier build.

Well, if the first clue that points to the planet says "Cerberus", and the "note" at the end says "Cerberus", personally, I'd conclude "Cerberus."  But that's just me.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Well, if the first clue that points to the planet says "Cerberus", and the "note" at the end says "Cerberus", personally, I'd conclude "Cerberus."  But that's just me.

Or you know, instead of being dishonest you could read the actual logs refering to the mission and see that it is clearly an Exo-Geni operation and not a Cerberus one.

I plan to go home and look that up tonight (I can't promise I'll remember to do so 4 or 5 hours from now, after shopping for Thanksgiving and all that driving, but I'll try).  If the logs make it clear that the Husk experiments gone wrong are Exo-Geni, I'll come back and post a retraction. 

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 Even though - baring in mind for the purposes of a Cerberus comparison we have to exaggerate this - the atrocious mismanagement and radical experiments which have seen various destructive technologies unleashed, in one instance (Overlord) coming close to a technological apocalypse?

 I'd conclude that giving it to them has a far greater chance of damaging the war effort than aiding the war effort.

Understandable, though I would point out that this appocalypse didn't happen because Cerberus got Shepard on the scene. (even if Shepard wasn't ever sent Cerberus still neutralized the threat)

However I have a question for you: with all that in mind don't you also feel that the Spectres, STG, and Systems Alliance are too dangerous to contribute to the war effort?

The Spectres gave us Saren. Saren nearly ended all life in the galaxy and it was his Spectre status right up until it was revoked that allowed him to get so far.

The STG gave us Maelon, who used his clearance to take data on the genophage and then scurried off in secret to cure it. What if Mordin hadn't ever gotten word that he'd been "kidnapped" by clan Weyrloc? The krogan would have turned up with a genophage cure out of the blue.

How about the Alliance's "The Project" concerning the Alpha Relay? Everyone was indoctrinated and if it weren't for the freak chance of the batarians capturing Kenson on her scouting expedition nobody would have known anything was wrong until it was too late. The Reapers would have arrived and it was all over. All because precautions weren't taken with the artifact even when the team apparently knew the risks.

 

 From a meta-gaming perspective the Overlord threat was neutralised, but that does seem like an issue-dodge.. had not Shepard turned up when he did then the signal would have been sent out, and technological apocalypse would have occured.. 

 I would like to start with a sympathetic point.. were it not that the Collectors station was guaranteed to go to Cerberus, I would have saved it. I don't find any of the other Paragon arguments convincing, and my sole reason was Cerberus' track record, with the Overlord occasion being a very big consideration

 I take your point regarding the other groups. A big aim of my Shepard would be to increase awareness to such an extent, get the Reaper threat in the open, so organisations such as the Council might be forced into action by the people, and I regard providing Cerberus with technology a likely discrediting force

 That said the STG would be my favourite organisation as presented thus far, and though Maleon was an issue he seems far from the norm. Furthermore they do not appear to have the extreme hands-off style of the Illusive Man which seems doomed to failure to me ( a style that does seem to be mirrored in other organisations as you note, most likely necessary to guarantee Shepard has plenty of distress calls to fill his/her time)

[someone else]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I don't know how you can say Cerberus' efforts have not paid off when they've successfully maintained their separations from the Alliance, continue to survive in a galaxy largly hostile to them, have agents infiltrated into dozens of corporations and governments, and have informants everywhere. They also managed to get the most state of the art ship in the galaxy built, twice, built the most potent A.I. we've ever seen, brought a man back from the dead (which involved defeating the Shadow Broker in the process), saved the Council from the batarians, stopped the Reaper-Grayson rampage, killed off the Shadow Broker, and killed off the Collectors.

So yeah, their success rate is just fine. The only real failures are Project Teltin (10+ years ago), the rachni experiments, and the attempted retrieval of Gillian from the Migrant Fleet (undone at the last moment by a traitor's change of heart).

...and your point is, this has advanced the cause of humanity how?

[Nightwriter]

Ieldra 2 wrote...

Think of Akuze and Toombs' description of what they did to him. Think of Pragia and the log telling you what happened to the children there. It is rather obvious that this is intended to invoke a "death camp" parallel.

Unfortunately, there is something wrong with that. Because in the historical parallel invoked, the deaths, the dehumanizing and the suffering were very much the point. They *were* the agenda, explicitly put down as policy is some cases. Which makes the monstrously evil acts plausible within the existing ideology.

I would actually say the experiments conducted by Unit 731 are a better parallel than death camps there. But either parallel clearly illustrates your point: they do try too hard to paint Cerberus as evil.

[General User]

umm... about Akuze...

The thing is: how much did Cerberus/the Alliance really know about thresher maws at the time, specifically as relates to that particular planet? 

I mean, if all you really know is that something is causing a disturbance on a frontier planet and a survey team has gone missing, then sending in a platoon of Marines to recon the area sounds like a sensible course of action to me.

[Someone With Mass]

Sending in drones and start to scan the area first would be a even more sensible plan. When a team disappears in uncharted territory, the stupidest thing one could do would be to send another team right on top of the old one without even trying to analyze the surroundings first.

[someone else]

Saphra Deden wrote...

someone else wrote...

...and your point is, this has advanced the cause of humanity how?

Do you need everything spelled out for you?

Yeah, you're right on the record and I immediatly starte to edit the post, but took too much time looking up the predecessor -

So agreed Cerebrus has clearly done some good and perhaps even a net benefit all round.  However, its overarching challenge is the defeat of the Reapers, and the results of those efforts are less convincing - no super army, super weapon, an alienated Shepard and a Normandy lost to the Alliance - but a Shepard and an Alliance which may defeat both the Reapers and Cerebrus itself.

Increasingly, it seems difficult to either naively "support" or "oppose" Cerebrus on whatever grounds - moral, pragmatic, or realpolitic.  They are clearly sowing both the seeds of victory and their own destruction - If they are successful, it is likely to be posthumously.

[General User]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Sending in drones and start to scan the area first would be a even more sensible plan. When a team disappears in uncharted territory, the stupidest thing one could do would be to send another team right on top of the old one without even trying to analyze the surroundings first.

Wouldn't the specifics of how to go about the recon (ie when, where, and how to use drones and when, where, and how to have boots on the ground) have been the decision of the officer in charge of the mission?

Modifié par General User, 22 novembre 2011 - 10:39 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I plan to go home and look that up
tonight (I can't promise I'll remember to do so 4 or 5 hours from now,
after shopping for Thanksgiving and all that driving, but I'll try).  If
the logs make it clear that the Husk experiments gone wrong are
Exo-Geni, I'll come back and post a retraction. 

Well the log is one you find on Feros so try a FAQ on GameFAQ's.

http://masseffect.wi...ony_of_the_Dead

Still looking for the actual text of the log entry and the dialogue box, but here are the two references from the Wiki:

While on Feros you found the personal log of an ExoGeni employee. The doctor's notes seem to express some concern about samples they provided to a group he referred to only as Cerberus.

Once all the Husks are down head to the pillar to the right of the entryway, on the near side for a med kit then into the back rooms. The back room to the left is completely empty, of anything and everything it is just an empty room. So head to the right and in this room are four crates and a terminal. Accessing it will reveal that the entire pioneer team is dead, and whatever 'samples' were provided to Cerberus (possibly referring to the Dragon's Teeth scattered around) effectively murdered dozens of people. Acquiring this information ends the assignment.

Chain of evidence points to Cerberus so far -- nothing dishonest about it.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 22 novembre 2011 - 11:47 .

[mauro2222]

Jesus! People see threats everywhere, and they even support the space Illuminati... errhh I mean Cerberus. I'm scared.

[CerberusWarrior]

Cerberus brought Shepard back to life and they are the ones that stopped the collectors . Oh but in Mass Effect 3 thats been erased because Bioware needs its Saturday morning cartoon bad guys since the reapers clearly sound stupid and make for dumb bad guys in 3

[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

While on Feros you found the personal log of an ExoGeni employee. The doctor's notes seem to express some concern about samples they provided to a group he referred to only as Cerberus.

Right. They GAVE SAMPLES TO CERBERUS which indicates that it was not a Cerberus operation. Exogeni was the one running it and thus Cerberus had to get samples FROM THEM.

Read comprehension! Get some of it!

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Chain of evidence points to Cerberus so far -- nothing dishonest about it.

All it says is that Cerberus came and recieved samples of some kind. Whatever it was Cerberus didn't take is what killed the colony.

Point is, Cerberus didn't kill the colony.

Let me give you an example you might understand:

Exogeni manufactures drugs. Cerberus comes and buys some of the drugs. Exogeni then overdoses on the rest of the drugs.

That's what happened.

Or, Cerberus came and got the samples at Feros, and took them to the world where the experiment was being conducted -- where things later went horribly wrong.  Given the message at the end of the mission, that's how I've always figured it.  And based on all the walkthroughs I'm finding while looking for exact wording of the log you find on Feros, what the people who wrote those walkthroughs concluded as well. 

As I said, I'd have to re-read the exact text of the log that starts the mission to know how certain to be about it.  So far, no luck finding it.


PS:  What is "read comprehension"?  If you're going to attempt talking down to someone and treating them as if they're an idiot multiple times, it might be best if you proof-read your own post before hitting "submit".

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 23 novembre 2011 - 01:45 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

What if the sample given to Cerberus wasn't husks, but dragon's teeth?

We do know from the secondary media that Cerberus put a great deal of effort into researching indoctrination, correct?

If Cerberus wasn't involved in what happened to the colony, why does the closing message of the mission state that Cerberus has a lot to answer for? (Paraphrasing a bit I think.)