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Morality, ideology and why people support Cerberus (long)

Débuté par Ieldra , nov. 21 2011 09:32

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#176
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 02:07

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

What if the sample given to Cerberus wasn't husks, but dragon's teeth?


Then that doesn't change anything.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If Cerberus wasn't involved in what happened to the colony, why does the closing message of the mission state that Cerberus has a lot to answer for? (Paraphrasing a bit I think.)


Like I said I think the closing statement is an artifact from an earlier build of that mission. Originally there was probably a much more explicit connection to Cerberus. Some people have even suggested that the Nodacrux and Chasca quests got mixed up somehow.

Point is, the quest in ME1 doesn't give us any clear idea of how Cerberus was responsible for anything there. Even in ME2 when the quest is mentioned in passing it is still left vague. Husks are mentioned, but that could be Shepard talking about the ones on Binthu.

#177
therussianviking
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 02:37

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Interesting points, but Akuze solidified them as evil to me. If I butchered 50 people just to research if they begged for mercy or tried to fight back, I think that would make me evil. Cerberus did pretty much the same thing.

#178
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 02:50

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You have no idea what Cerberus was researching on Akuze.

#179
Killjoy Cutter
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 02:51

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

What if the sample given to Cerberus wasn't husks, but dragon's teeth?


Then that doesn't change anything.


It does if it was Cerberus that took the dragon's teeth to the colony, as opposed to ExoGeni. 

Is there anything to indicate that it was ExoGeni who established the colony?

#180
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 02:53

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Saphra Deden wrote...

You have no idea what Cerberus was researching on Akuze.

And what were they researching?

#181
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 02:57

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It does if it was Cerberus that took the dragon's teeth to the colony, as opposed to ExoGeni.


Yes, but there is no evidence that they did.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Is there anything to indicate that it was ExoGeni who established the colony?


It is in a cluster with two other ExoGeni colonies and establishing colonies is what ExoGeni does. In fact I think the planet description for Chasca mentions the massive colonial drive gearing up on Earth.


Cthulhu42 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

You have no idea what Cerberus was researching on Akuze.

And what were they researching?


I don't know. Nobody but Cerberus knows. (and possibly high ranking members of the Alliance)

Modifié par Saphra Deden, 23 novembre 2011 - 02:58 .

#182
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:07

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[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
[quote]Cthulhu42 wrote...

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

You have no idea what Cerberus was researching on Akuze.[/quote]
And what were they researching?
[/quote]

I don't know. Nobody but Cerberus knows. (and possibly high ranking members of the Alliance)
[/quote]


[/quote]
In that case, shouldn't the burden of proof be on those attempting to justify the atrocities committed? If I killed 50 people, I doubt any court would let me use "I had good reasons that you just don't know about" as an excuse.

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 23 novembre 2011 - 03:08 .

#183
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:12

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

In that case, shouldn't the burden of proof be on those attempting to justify the atrocities committed?


Uhh... no. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Cerberus committed the atrocity in the first place. That is no evidence that they did; only that they experimented on the sole survivor. We don't actually know if Cerberus lead the threshers to the colony or set up the marines to be slaughtered.

#184
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:17

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

In that case, shouldn't the burden of proof be on those attempting to justify the atrocities committed?


Uhh... no. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Cerberus committed the atrocity in the first place. That is no evidence that they did; only that they experimented on the sole survivor. We don't actually know if Cerberus lead the threshers to the colony or set up the marines to be slaughtered.

Well, whether or not they led the threshers to the nest (and the games heavily imply that they did, with both Tela Vasir and Toombs claiming it), they still need to give a reason why they were justified in the tests they did on Toombs.

#185
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:25

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

Well, whether or not they led the threshers to the nest (and the games heavily imply that they did, with both Tela Vasir and Toombs claiming it), they still need to give a reason why they were justified in the tests they did on Toombs.


Well why don't you ask them what they were studying?

#186
CerberusWarrior
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:29

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Cerberus did save the Galaxy in 2 but its clear Bioware would rather erase all parts of Mass Effect 2 from the Mass Effect franchise with ME 3 .

#187
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:29

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Well, whether or not they led the threshers to the nest (and the games heavily imply that they did, with both Tela Vasir and Toombs claiming it), they still need to give a reason why they were justified in the tests they did on Toombs.


Well why don't you ask them what they were studying?

I would, if we had been given the option. Sadly, we weren't; I very much would have liked to hear TIM's explanation.

#188
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:30

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

I would, if we had been given the option. Sadly, we weren't; I very much would have liked to hear TIM's explanation.


Well then. Until you know what actually happened at Akuze there isn't much point in bringing it up in a debate about Cerberus because you can't use it to prove anything.

#189
Abispa
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:31

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Every year thousands of people are saved using burn treatments developed by the National Socialist German Workers' Party. They developed those treatments by setting Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals on fire and conducting medical experiments on them. The Allies were justified in hanging the SOBs who ran that program.

#190
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:37

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I would, if we had been given the option. Sadly, we weren't; I very much would have liked to hear TIM's explanation.


Well then. Until you know what actually happened at Akuze there isn't much point in bringing it up in a debate about Cerberus because you can't use it to prove anything.

Again, it should be up to Cerberus to prove that what they did was justified; "you don't know they didn't have a good reason for torturing somebody" does not seem to me to be a good reason for believing a group to be blameless.

Also, I'm not the one who brought Akuze up.

#191
Destroy Raiden_
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:39

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I would, if we had been given the option. Sadly, we weren't; I very much would have liked to hear TIM's explanation.


Well then. Until you know what actually happened at Akuze there isn't much point in bringing it up in a debate about Cerberus because you can't use it to prove anything.


Tombs gives you a good idea of what happened during and after they experimented brutally on him to see what would happen so them feeding his unit to the reapers to see what would happen is right in line with that. We don't need the email that authorized said units execution we have two witnesses shep and Tombs.

#192
CerberusWarrior
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:48

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Its real funny how you all can say bad things about Cerberus but we all know what the STG and Turians did to the Krogan is just as worse but no here on BSN its Cerberus is bad and no one else is bad . well go back and play arrival DLC for ME 2 tell me why the alliance studying a reaper artifact is ok but when Cerberus does it things are bad. Bioware has did a ****** poor job with the whole Mass Effect story . If Cerberus was a Black Ops unit in the alliance then it makes only sense that the alliance takes the blame for the actions as well . Cerberus was the only ones that gave a dam about stopping the reapers and collectors in ME 2 and now 2 years later story wise they are bad. No it makes no sense .

#193
Abispa
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 03:54

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@ CerberusWarrior -- ME2 gave me the option to tell Mordin he was wrong and should cure the genophage.

The title of the thread is about Cerberus, so you can't use the lack of debate over the Turian and Salarian war crimes as proof of endorsement. One straw man at a time.

#194
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:13

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Destroy Raiden wrote...

Tombs gives you a good idea of what happened during and after they experimented brutally on him to see what would happen...


Toombs is a raving, shell-shocked lunatic who doesn't tell you anything.

#195
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:14

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

Again, it should be up to Cerberus to prove that what they did was justified;


Right, but there is no way for them to do that nor for you to find out what they did. So it is pointless to debate about.

#196
therussianviking
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:39

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Cerberus knew the thresher maws were there. They could have warned the marines. Instead, they watched as they were turned into dinner and then interrogated Toombs. doesn't matter what they were researching. They let people, HUMANS die.

#197
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:52

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therussianviking wrote...

Cerberus knew the thresher maws were there.


Probable, but we have no proof. They have simply swept in after hearing about the disaster.

#198
bboynexus
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 04:52

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Every piece of information about Cerberus we ever received in ME1 came from those whose perspectives were arguably very fractured.

#199
FFinfinity1
Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 05:01

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Saphra Deden wrote...

therussianviking wrote...

Cerberus knew the thresher maws were there.


Probable, but we have no proof. They have simply swept in after hearing about the disaster.


I'm pretty sure Cerberus lured the Threshers using some sort of beacon attracting thresher maws. Perhaps they wanted to test how marines would do against a thresher but eitherway its all cerberus' fault. Humanity would be better off without Cerberus, and i know a sole survivor shep that wouldn't mind tearing apart cerberus piece by piece. The only good thing they did was help defeat the collectors and revive shepard. Then again shepard did all the work defeating the collectors =]

#200
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Posté 23 novembre 2011 - 05:05

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FFinfinity1 wrote...


I'm pretty sure Cerberus lured the Threshers using some sort of beacon attracting thresher maws.


You aren't sure of anything you are just speculating.
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