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[111987]

Wasn't Cerberus testing the effects of Thresher Maw venom on humans, or something like that?

[CerberusWarrior]

Abispa wrote...

@ CerberusWarrior -- ME2 gave me the option to tell Mordin he was wrong and should cure the genophage.

The title of the thread is about Cerberus, so you can't use the lack of debate over the Turian and Salarian war crimes as proof of endorsement. One straw man at a time.

   


typical no one dare wants to discuss how bad other races or the alliance are in ME games but its ok to find reasons with in games or comics or books to discuss why Cerberus is bad . what sense does that make none .   there is always 2 sides to any story but its clear Bioware only wants to show one side and erase what Cerberus did in 2 .

[jbblue05]

FFinfinity1 wrote...


I'm pretty sure Cerberus lured the Threshers using some sort of beacon attracting thresher maws. Perhaps they wanted to test how marines would do against a thresher but eitherway its all cerberus' fault. Humanity would be better off without Cerberus, and i know a sole survivor shep that wouldn't mind tearing apart cerberus piece by piece. The only good thing they did was help defeat the collectors and revive shepard. Then again shepard did all the work defeating the collectors

I think somewhere in the Akuze codex that humanity first encountered thresher maws on Akuze, I find it harder to believe they lured the maws, I believe the colony was built too close on a thresher mating ground.  .

[Ieldra]

therussianviking wrote...
Interesting points, but Akuze solidified them as evil to me. If I butchered 50 people just to research if they begged for mercy or tried to fight back, I think that would make me evil. Cerberus did pretty much the same thing.

Of course it would, and of course they did. The point I was making is that what Toombs tells you undermines the point they wanted to make because it's pointless. What additional knowledge could be gained by injecting someone with a substance you already know eats through human tissue fast and, even more to the point, even if it could be used as a weapon, would be used from without? "Experiments" in this case became a synonym for "pointless torture". Give me evil actions that have a point, and I believe them. Give me pointless evil, and I feel insulted and it's more likely that I react in a contrary way.

[capn233]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Point is, the quest in ME1 doesn't give us any clear idea of how Cerberus was responsible for anything there. Even in ME2 when the quest is mentioned in passing it is still left vague. Husks are mentioned, but that could be Shepard talking about the ones on Binthu.

Here is the log that triggers UNC: Colony of the Dead which is from decrypting a console in the ExoGeni building on Feros:

PRIVATE LOG OF DR. GAMORLE
"I don't trust this Cerberus group.  They may pay us well, but if this gets out before we've developed an antidote... it's just not smart.  They won't tell us what they want the samples for or why they wanted them delivered to the Matano system.  My records show nothing of interest out there.

Gamorle works on Feros, which is why his logs are in the ExoGeni building.

After you get to the console at the end of UNC: Colony of the Dead...

A colonial pioneer team rarely consists of more than a few dozen specialists.  It's clear that none of them survived.  The Cerberus group has a lot to answer for here.

And it's Journal Summary

According to the logs, a visitor from an organization called Cerberus recently passed through the colony.  It seems likely this person had something to do with the transformation of the colonists.

Cerberus had the materials sent there, likely to test them on the pioneer teams.  That is the most logical interpretation of this mission.  The "Read comprehension! Get some of it!" may indeed apply.

The trigger for UNC: ExoGeni Facility is this

CONFIDENTIAL
"The test samples were due to arrive three days ago, but we haven't heard anything from the colony or the cargo vessel.  We suspect the samples became volatile and recommend cutting off all further contact with the Nodacrux colony.  Even if the colony is discovered, no one should be able to trace the events there back to us."

At the end of that one you meet the ExoGeni scientist Dr Ross, who won't be taken alive.  She says:

"The creepers here were created by altered samples from the specimens on Feros.  We discovered a way to turn them into docile, obedient servants."

Zulu had a thread about the triggers being switched... really the only thing that seems to suggest that is that Ross says that due to security they "have no direct communication with the outside.   Only the emergency beacon.  It sends a general distress signal to the ExoGeni site on Feros."  I don't care for this theory, rather I think it was just an oversight in the writing of the console message or Ross's dialogue. 

It doesn't really matter though.  The point was to link Cerberus and ExoGeni and show that both had little regard for colonists as long as they could further research into husks / indoctrination, or the creepers.  But I would agree that Nodacrux looks like just another ExoGeni site, and that Cerberus probably isn't even involved there.  That is the opposite of Chasca, where it is pretty clearly laid out.

Modifié par capn233, 23 novembre 2011 - 06:57 .

[capn233]

Oh as for the main topic of this thread...

It's sort of funny Cerberus is called a terrorist group in game. What actions have they taken to warrant this label, especially among the people that throw that around? I don't recall them using terror as a means to achieve a political goal. They certainly conducted a lot of experiments, many brutal, and many operatives and operations are ruthless. The terrorist thing just doesn't fit. Maybe there is some history I am missing.

As far as them being evil, they have displayed disregard for individual life repeatedly. Some want to romanticize them as guardians of humanity who just do what it takes, but they have killed a lot of humans in the process. I suppose if they mainly experiment on people that nobody will miss it is ok as long as they get results, and they don't run out of subjects.

Modifié par capn233, 23 novembre 2011 - 07:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus in ME2 really should have qualified for 'military-scientific cabal'.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

At the end of ME2 Shepard explains to TIM that he will not sacrafice the soul of our species to win the war with the Reapers.  I believe that this epitomizes the difference between good and evil.   We have morals, and we stand by them because they define us.  To lose our morals is to lose ourselves, our souls....

Sheps lines there were pure garbage.
"Soul of the species?" How the frack does a species loses it's "soul" by utilizing enemy technology?
Brainless, breainless, brainless. That entire sequence has me seeting with rage...

We're not talking about stealing a better rifle... 

Yes, we actually are.
Where is the "evil" in using that base to save humanity? What the hell have all those people died for? Nothing?


The whole faux morality argument is redicolous.
I find it funny that some people take the moral high ground here, demanding that "X must not be uased, no matter what." That by using X, humanity loses it "humanity".
The same people who call such things immoral then take it upon themselves to decide the fate of an entire species, in the name of morality.
Yes, it's very "moral" to gamble with the lives of everyone without ever aksing them.
Yes, it's very "moral" to decide who lives and dies for everyone, and frak them and their opponion. You know their worth better then them.

"Well, if we do X, humantiy isn't worth perserving anways. It's better for all of you to die then for me to use X...Let's all die people!"

Friggin laughable.

[TobyHasEyes]

Stanley Woo wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

From a meta-gaming perspective the Overlord threat was neutralised, but that does seem like an issue-dodge.. had not Shepard turned up when he did then the signal would have been sent out, and technological apocalypse would have occured..

No, as I said Cerberus neutralizes the threat regardless. Even if they hadn't I question whether the "appocalypse" scenario was a real threat or not. After all Overlord is ultimately tied to the human/VI interface that David is plugged into. It can thus only carry so much. That's beside the point and it is just speculation.

Regardless you could apply this logic to any of the other cases I mentioned.

 When Shepard arrives, almost the first thing he is required to do is destroy that satellite so that the VI can't ssend itself off world. So they clearly had not neutralised the threat; had Shepard not turned up within minutes it would have escalated to the worst possible degree

 You are free to dismiss the 'apocalypse' scenario, but all that means is that you are dismissing something we were told by the game, which kind of destroys almost any in-universe debate

[111987]

Well Lotion, it depends on what people do with the base. If Cerberus for example wants to use it to transform humanity into a hybrid Husk race to combat the Reapers (like the meta-Turians and the Monolith), the 'soul' of humanity is being lost.

Same if Cerberus decides to turn humanity into a Reaper. That is another case of losing the soul of a species, by becoming something else entirely.

However I do agree that given the context, that line was very cringe-worthy, and I personally would save the base as well.

[Siegdrifa]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tonymac wrote...

At the end of ME2 Shepard explains to TIM that he will not sacrafice the soul of our species to win the war with the Reapers.  I believe that this epitomizes the difference between good and evil.   We have morals, and we stand by them because they define us.  To lose our morals is to lose ourselves, our souls....

Sheps lines there were pure garbage.
"Soul of the species?" How the frack does a species loses it's "soul" by utilizing enemy technology?
Brainless, breainless, brainless. That entire sequence has me seeting with rage...

We're not talking about stealing a better rifle... 

Yes, we actually are.
Where is the "evil" in using that base to save humanity? What the hell have all those people died for? Nothing?

 I agree, a loot is a loot, gun, rifle, unknown technologie... all you have to do is go to menu, select, equip, et clic on the left clic to use it properly ....
Damn, nobody ever played command and conquer ? you just have to send one of your engineer to take control of ennemy's building and use it as your own ....

And it's not like reapers technology had trap or naughty side effect... okay we don't know yet wich DRM the reapers used when they constructed the citadelle, but it is certeinly armless.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 When Shepard arrives, almost the first thing he is required to do is destroy that satellite so that the VI can't ssend itself off world. So they clearly had not neutralised the threat; had Shepard not turned up within minutes it would have escalated to the worst possible degree

 You are free to dismiss the 'apocalypse' scenario, but all that means is that you are dismissing something we were told by the game, which kind of destroys almost any in-universe debate

And if Shep dpoesn't accept the mission and doesn't go there?
Nothing happens.
Cerberus simply sends someone else to clean up.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

There's no good reason to hurt someone against his will no matter the benefit unless that person his already doomed anyway.
Even saving millions of people isn't worthy of sacrificing one unwilling person.
That's why I can't agree with the OP.

Besides, being a chief in a large organisation doesn't dilute your responsability, everything your power is used for is your responsability even if you didn't even know, that's part of what it means to be one of the head of an organisation. Think it's unfair? Then have an organisation at a size where your management capability will be enough.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

There's no good reason to hurt someone against his will no matter the benefit unless that person his already doomed anyway.
Even saving millions of people isn't worthy of sacrificing one unwilling person.
That's why I can't agree with the OP.

Then you are welcome to lay down and die when the reapers come a reapen'.

If a species that doesn't follow your moral compass to a letter isn't worth surviving, then a species that isn't willing to fight for it's survival to the fullest isn't worth surviving either.

I guess that also means that shooting down a plane filled with civilians and a deadly virus is an action you would never support?
Does that also mean that your Sheppard will comit suicide (given that he sacrificed 300000 batarians)?

Besides, being a chief in a large organisation doesn't dilute your responsability, everything your power is used for is your responsability even if you didn't even know, that's part of what it means to be one of the head of an organisation. Think it's unfair? Then have an organisation at a size where your management capability will be enough.

Let's hang every general in the universe then. I'm sure some soldier in their chain of command commited crimes..somewhere...sometimes.
Firt we have the Liutenant...but wait - the commander was responsible for it it.. Let's hang him too. And the general..and admiral...And the president...

[Silent X]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Admittedly it is all very vague, but the fact that Miranda's genetic engineering can be read that way, especially after LotSB, makes me fear the worst for ME3. That's why I never miss an opportunity to say that while her upbringing as nothing more than a tool of her father's was, for lack of a better word, "evil", her genetic engineering wasn't. Had she been brought up with more love, she'd have more self-esteem, regardless of the source of her supreme competence.

As for the class division commentary, I guess that's possible, but nicely subverted by MIranda's statement in the Renegade romance that "given your genetic records, you're practically a bloody perfect human specimen". Which is particularly apt if you're an Earthborn Shepard with a distinctly lower-class origin (which my main Shepard is). Hmm....need to think more about that.

Interesting. I've never romanced Miranda and wasn't aware of that line. It would seem to indicate that really good genes can come together by accident as well as by design, which is reasonable; the genetic engineering simply serves to dramatically increase the chance of getting the desired outcome. I agree with you that, in this case, it's the intent of the act that matters more than the act itself. I wouldn't call Miranda's father evil for wanting to protect his daughter from, say, heart disease; what makes him a total jerk in my book is his determination to create offspring solely to serve as extensions of himself.

Ieldra2 wrote...

I didn't meant to imply I bought into the reasoning that certain things "aren't really Cerberus". I only wanted to say that for those who wish that it were so - which *does* include me - it would be possible, if not exactly savvy, to posit that. Which may be the reason that there are quite a few Cerberus apologists on these forums.

It's as naledgeborn said: We who agree to the mission statement of "advancement and preservation of humanity", who would be willing to use means that any regular covert operations group would use to further that agenda but deplore Cerberus' more extreme methods, have a hard time coming up with a faction to support in the ME universe. It's not surprising that some would choose Cerberus against their better knowledge.

Ah, okay. What you're saying here reminds me of the codex description of the Terra Firma Party in ME1. I believe it said something about Terra Firma including a number of people who were not fanatical, but simply wanted to ensure that human culture wouldn't be swept under a tide of "alien vogue." That concern I can understand. Whatever larger culture we might join, I believe there is value in remembering, and remaining connected to, what came before. How I personally feel about "advancement and preservation of humanity" really depends on how those concepts are defined. Like "progress," those words can mean radically different things depending on one's point of view.  

Ieldra2 wrote...

The point where he said that was certainly the point of no return. After that, it was practically guaranteed there he would be an enemy in ME3. I can even see the psychological mechanism by which he got that way, and that the lack of even limited accountability may have contributed to his becoming who he is. The only sad thing is that he may have started out with the very admirable goal of protecting humanity against an unknown threat, and that his mission statement gets dragged down with him.

That's certainly conceivable. I haven't read the novels or comics, so I don't know much about the Illusive Man's backstory, but I could believe he might not always have been the clever but essentially sociopathic megalomaniac he strikes me as in Mass Effect 2. And I do think lack of accountability could make it easier for someone to go from wary and pragmatic to well-intentioned extremist. . . and end up losing sight of what they were supposed to be fighting for.

In any event, I'd like to thank you for a well-presented and civil discussion. They can be hard to find, perhaps moreso on BSN than some places.  *tips hat*

[Ieldra]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...
There's no good reason to hurt someone against his will no matter the benefit unless that person his already doomed anyway.
Even saving millions of people isn't worthy of sacrificing one unwilling person.
That's why I can't agree with the OP.

Actually, I didn't claim that it was in my OP.

I do now, however. I readily admit that Cerberus goes too far and displays an unacceptable level of disregard for life and well-being of humans, which are, after all, part of the humanity they want to protect. But if your fundamentalist stance was made policy it would be possible to hold one person hostage against the fate of humanity. That's unacceptable.

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 When Shepard arrives, almost the first thing he is required to do is destroy that satellite so that the VI can't ssend itself off world. So they clearly had not neutralised the threat; had Shepard not turned up within minutes it would have escalated to the worst possible degree

 You are free to dismiss the 'apocalypse' scenario, but all that means is that you are dismissing something we were told by the game, which kind of destroys almost any in-universe debate

And if Shep dpoesn't accept the mission and doesn't go there?
Nothing happens.
Cerberus simply sends someone else to clean up.

 But of course that only makes sense from a meta-gaming POV.. as facile as the observation that if you keep the ME2 disc in the drive it appears that the Reapers never arrive.. 

[Someone With Mass]

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 But of course that only makes sense from a meta-gaming POV.. as facile as the observation that if you keep the ME2 disc in the drive it appears that the Reapers never arrive.. 

Unless you're playing Arrival.

Then they'll come.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then you are welcome to lay down and die when the reapers come a reapen'.
If a species that doesn't follow your moral compass to a letter isn't worth surviving, then a species that isn't willing to fight for it's survival to the fullest isn't worth surviving either.
I guess that also means that shooting down a plane filled with civilians and a deadly virus is an action you would never support?
Does that also mean that your Sheppard will comit suicide (given that he sacrificed 300000 batarians)?

You are welcome to read the first part of what I wrote again, and fully this time.

Let's hang every general in the universe then. I'm sure some soldier in their chain of command commited crimes..somewhere...sometimes.
Firt we have the Liutenant...but wait - the commander was responsible for it it.. Let's hang him too. And the general..and admiral...And the president...

If their soldiers where commiting crimes in duty (so as soldiers, even not during missions) I'm all for it.
You don't want to be hanged on? Just strip your soldiers of everything which makes them soldiers when they are out of missions, and watch them closely when they are on duty.
Making Cerberus a loose organisation doesn't strip TIM of his responsibility.

EDIT: Post Scriptum: And yeah, I actually doesn't support the actual concept of an army, I do prefer more spontaneous defense movements, where everyone does what he should and is responsible for it.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Actually, I didn't claim that it was in my OP.
I do now, however. I readily admit that Cerberus goes too far and displays an unacceptable level of disregard for life and well-being of humans, which are, after all, part of the humanity they want to protect. But if your fundamentalist stance was made policy it would be possible to hold one person hostage against the fate of humanity. That's unacceptable.

What I said is there is no "acceptable level of disregard for life" at all, as the only life you have the rights to make whathever you wants with is yours.
And no, one person would not be able to be held hostage against the fate of humanity, simply because accepting the fact that your only have all powers over yourself only also means that your are responsible of nobody but yourself, meaning you don't have to save everybody.
Not saving someone is not the same as killing someone.
Actually that was already summarised in my previous post in the "already doomed" part.

Modifié par Kakita Tatsumaru, 23 novembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[TobyHasEyes]

Someone With Mass wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 But of course that only makes sense from a meta-gaming POV.. as facile as the observation that if you keep the ME2 disc in the drive it appears that the Reapers never arrive.. 

Unless you're playing Arrival.

Then they'll come.

 In which case if you keep the ME2 disc in the drive it appears the Reapers never leave the Batarian system
 
 <_<

[Someone With Mass]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 In which case if you keep the ME2 disc in the drive it appears the Reapers never leave the Batarian system
 
 <_<

Actually, they do that as well. 

But, I digress. 

[TobyHasEyes]

Indeed you do

[Someone With Mass]

I personally fin TIM to be just as interesting as Harbinger. None whatsoever, that is.

All they're doing is throwing mooks/money at a problem until it either disappears or they lose completely. Any idiot can do that.

Compared to Saren and Kai Leng, who I think are way better villains, since they actually have the ability to step down from their thrones and personally hurt you in more ways than one, and they have a personal stake in all of this, which they risk just as much as I do. I sort of respect that.

While Harbinger is resting easy back in dark space and TIM is sipping his scotch back at his base and have absolutely nothing to lose unless they're directly confronted.

That makes them so utterly boring and dull when they're spewing out their nonsense about destinies and all that crap. I have no reason whatsoever to care about them beyond the basic fact that they're the bad guys. That makes them so intensely one-dimensional and no, I don't give a damn about what the books or comics says, because a character shouldn't have to be spread out and told about like that to try and make them more than what they really are.

Oh, and when you're basically throwing kids and other people into a glorified meat grinder to try and create something new out of the paste, you're no better than the Reapers.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 23 novembre 2011 - 03:18 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Wow... I have to laugh at how every piece of evidence against Cerberus is being met with "but you don't know for sure that doesn't prove anything the witness is unreliable it doesn't mean anything it could be something else so it's not valid but but but!"

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 23 novembre 2011 - 02:15 .