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[HolyAvenger]

Grunt, if you max out his regen (passive) and fortification, becomes an awesome "tank". Can take punishment like no tomorrow, allowing you to sit in the back and headshot to your heart's content. Jack is tricky (what difficulty are you playing at?) because as a pure biotic she only really becomes useful (apart from her ammo power) when enemy protections are already stripped. Also she'll go down very easily. A drone or flashbang is very useful for staggering enemies and keeping them distracted, and forcing them out of cover so that's Kasumi or Legion/Tali.

[HolyAvenger]

Doh, DP. 

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 05 décembre 2011 - 12:19 .

[Demoneq]

I'm playing at Casual difficulty (first playthrough and all, plus I play mostly for the RP/story part, and less so for the fighting part), and what you say fits what I have read about suggested Infiltrator squad (that with Squad Warp Ammo the biotic isn't necessary, so Garrus + Grunt make a good team), so probably will go with Grunt, thanks.

BTW, how good is Tali at close range combat? I'm thinking of a future Vanguard Shepard + Tali + some long range squadmate playthrough, how effective would that be?

[HolyAvenger]

Ok, on casual I would always recommend taking a biotic. Unmatched CC, will easily set up plenty of shooting opportunities for you. Samara/Jacob are my favourites.

Tali is OK. Must have if fighting geth/mechs as even a point in hacking will make those fights much, much easier. Really any combination of teammates will let you sail through the game if played properly.

[xassantex]

 recorded Horizon .
took mordin ( rank 3 incendiary ) and grunt (concussive blast ) .
i had :
cryo ammo - 1
cloak - 4
incendiary - 1
passive - 3
neural shock - 1 

i used cloak to move about , to flank and a couple of times for the bonus. 
the shurriken was my main weapon, with the pistol and rifle used equally in certain situations : scions, harbinger.. some husks. 
i spammed neural shock ;p
2 flaws you'll notice : a) i need to move way closer when flanking and shooting an enemy , i could push forward a bit more and be more mobile on the field . So i'm aware of those. 
I found the hardest part of the mission to be the first wave of collectors right after the defense towers are activated. 

HORIZON mission 

[capn233]

"Tactical Shift"

Just some thoughts as I watch it... might seem long, but I had nothing better to do at the time

I had a thing about cryo ammo here, but you really didn't have a choice so no need for a thesis. Suffice it to say I would have probably tried to get more points into incinerate early. But I am not a huge cryo ammo fan. I could expound on that more later, but I bet I would be somewhat in the minority.

Second battle (2:00) you get to the second wave of enemies. I don't know what most people do, but I always take the building on the right with my squad. Probably doesn't matter too much. I do feel like it gives my squad some protection and it funnels the husks into the far door. At 2:39 it looks like Grunt charges into you

In the next battle (3:40) I take the building at the right again (I must like buildings on the right). You get good cover and can advance towards the guys at the far end and then get in cover again. Seem to be making good use of NS... I would have had to make due with incinerate and twice the cooldown.

Meet Harbie (5:45): I usually take cover in more or less the same place initially. You can actually do the whole battle from there if you don't want to be aggressive, but going left isn't a bad choice. Kasumi with improved flashbang makes this section fairly easy. It looks like neural shock is making drones more likely to freeze earlier sometimes?

Courtyard fight with Harbie, Scions and friends (8:39): If I have Grunt, I like to take cover with the other squad mate at that first half wall (where you took cover), and park Grunt at the little crate that is at a diagonal in front of it to the left (which is in fact where the AI is sort of putting him here, even if he is taking risks and running into the courtyard). It works ok with other squad mates too, but sometimes I will just use the cowardly tactic of taking the ledge behind the building on the left, which limits the enemies' opportunities to shoot at you. When dealing with Harbie, try to dodge his attack (move under cover right before it gets to you) is important because getting knocked out of cover sucks. Way to charge the Scion.

Gun Turret Battle I (11:15): I take cover in the same place, and order the squad to hold there as well. The trick is to be able to focus the Scions down before they make it up the stairs. Success depends partly on what class you have and what squad. I don't have the Incisor since the only bonus guns I have are the Locust and Eviscerator, but Mantis would have probably worked better on the Scions. Carnifex looked to be better at them as well. Another tip is the ammo around there regens, so you could run around and pick more up if your favorite gun is low. NS on the husks was pretty efficient.

Gun Turret Battle II (14:02): Honestly I like to stay in the same spot as in the first part. They don't really get all that many spots where they can shoot at you effectively. What you did worked out too though.

Gun Turret Battle III (17:07): Same as above really. I'm sort of surprised the squad lasts as long as they do without much babysitting. And right when I type that both of them die, ha.

Praetorian:  Apprently you killed him so easily it wasn't worth showing

All in all I was impressed by the NS use. I didn't use NS on my infiltrator, but looks pretty good. Cloaking was better this time around IMO. I would say you were plenty mobile. Running around for the sake of running around isn't all that important, at least not to me. Sometimes it helps, but I guess I just play this mission pretty "safe" most of the time.

Modifié par capn233, 06 décembre 2011 - 03:04 .

[xassantex]

tis nice to read tips, advice, preferences etc. , so thanks . Long is good when it's specific.
about the praetorian , i took it out because it's just long and tedious. Do you really want to watch me run around picking ammo, not getting killed and shooting the few split seconds when possible ?
Regarding NS , if i deal with organics i'm taking it ... through the whole game, it's that good .

In former runnings through that mission i did use some of the spots you mentioned. But i intend to pick up the shotgun on the DCS so i'm working at a more cqc style.

as for cryo ammo it works . Doing Samara's recruit minutes ago, it was good to freeze those targets .. esp. the lokis and fenris dogs.
but i also love incinerate.

[capn233]

Allegedly insanity has more resistance to powers outside of simply protections. I don't really know, just have my observations. I wasn't impressed the first time, but gave it another chance on my Vanguard. I suppose it is ok. The freeze probability is too gun dependent and depends on the enemy as well, but with squad cryo it was semi respectable. There are some cryo infiltrator videos where it was effective, at least paired with the Viper. Personally I haven't noticed huge differences using something like squad cryo or even inferno as it relates to crowd control. They are slightly better then no ammo power. I say this because typically you can't lock down more than one at a time anyway, which you would do just by shooting them. Sometimes you get their friend with inferno, but that isn't a guaranteed thing. Mordin's cryo blast is nice to mess around with since the cooldown is so fast.

I think the way you did Horizon will work out pretty well with the shotgun. I played an infiltrator that ended up being somewhat in between... not really CQB or dedicated sniper. Viper+Vindicator+Tempest so I could sort of do whichever. Using cloak for maneuvering did make it nice to flank or sneak up and unload the Tempest into badguys though.

[xelander]

@xassantex

You're still staying too far away for CQC. Even if you're uisng SMG, try to be at  an in-your-face distance, like a Vanguard rigth after a Charge. You've switched to Shuriken but you're using it at the same distance as you did the Locust.Try to pulse the trigger instead of holding it down (the key to Shuriken) and be in kissing distance. That way you'll unload the clip the fastest of all three SMGs (otherwise it's just too slow) and the wider spread won't lead to too many bullets missing.

I get that you like Neural shock (yes, I know it's awesome) but why are you using it on the same target you're going to take down in the next second? The stagger is useful for stopping the enemy from shooting at you. So is it not better to stagger one enemy and shoot at another (once you get your shotgun that will be a stagger too!)? Try using less NS and more Cloak. Speaking of which, you still don't seem to have a clear purpose for it. Use it to flank, or to get to an isolated mook, or if your squadmates are still up, use it to set up a crossfire/surround situation (this really screws with the enemy AI). And also, always try to get a few shots before it ends, otherwise the damage boost just goes to waste. Again, if you're CQCing, Cloak, get into kissing distance and then shoot the SMG/shotgun.

Incisor is the worst SR in terms of kills/ammo ratio and worst or second to worst in kill speed. The only way I'd justify using it is if you're training for the Viper (since you mentioned you'll be picking a s shotgun I assume you'd be using the Viper). But they still handle differently.

As an Infiltrator, your bread and butter is the sniper slowmo (that's the class that gets the most out of the Viper) and the unhindered mobility. Make these central to your playstyle and you'll tear through anything.

[xassantex]

@capn233:
cryo has a big plus that i appreciate: you can freeze various enemies fast and kill them after.

@xelander:
as i watched the vid myself the distance issue really annoyed me. As for the shuriken , i just did Thane's recruit and used shoot/melee/shoot/melee : did that non stop on the last Vanguard in Thane's recruit and she never got up.
and thanks for the other tips, seems i got work to do ,lol . I'm going to do Thane's recruit over because i find it tricky when dealing with a mixture of fenris dogs, lokis and mercs.

Modifié par xassantex, 06 décembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[xelander]

Not to mention frozen enemies take double damage. Saves a lot of time against Krogan and Klixen (I just did Mordin's LM with my Claymore Soldier today - switched from Inferno to Cryo for those two types).

I don't quite get what you mean about the Shuriken. I use the melee/shoot chain sometimes with the shotgun - (if you time it right) it keeps an enemy staggered and you can even finish off a boss like that without too much problem. What I meant by "pulsing" is tapping the mouse button rapidly- if you time it right, the Shuriken behaviour turns from burst-fire mode to full automatic (at the expense of wider bullet spread, but that's even beneficial in CQC). That way you empty the whole clip a lot faster (the fastest of the three SMG). I've taken to using it exclusively on my Widow Infiltrator, I only switch sometimes to Tempest for geth-heavy missions. Overall, though, their performances are comparable, it's just a matter of personal preference.

EDIT: As far as the distance issue goes - I know the Infiltrator is squishier than a Soldier or a Vanguard, but still, try the in-your-face style - the game rewards crazy aggressive stuff, once you get the hang of it.

Modifié par xelander, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:14 .

[capn233]

Yes enemies that have completed the freezing animation receive double damage... as do any rag-dolled enemy. The chance of actually freezing an enemy is pretty variable, and as can be seen in that Horizon video many drones were freezing with something like 10% health left. I suppose it works ok on Krogan and Klixen... It is never heads and shoulders above any other ammo power, IMO. It does depend on the weapon though, as base damage apparently affects the likelihood of freezing. I do think the squad evolution is pretty decent, but I don't really like it that much for you personal ammo. This is all somewhat moot because if you are an infiltrator without a bonus power; then cryo makes sense on collector and blood pack missions.

Cryo blast is somewhat different in that you can practically guarantee that the target will freeze if you use it on a non-protected target.

As for the Shuriken, yeah it can empty it's clip the fastest, partly because it has a smaller one than the Tempest (24 v 50). Shuriken's ROF is 700rpm, whereas the Tempest is 925rpm. But yeah, you can use either effectively it just depends on if you want ROF or higher base damage.

Modifié par capn233, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:07 .

[xelander]

@capn233
Yeah, Cryo ammo takes some getting used to and the Shuriken does freeze stuff better due to the higher base damage (part of why I prefer it over the Tempest). Ultimately, it's a matter of play style and personal preferences. For example, I've tried playing an Assassin build with Warp ammo but I just couldn't really get into it. So I swear by Cryo Ammo and enjoy looking videos of other people using the other Ammos.

@iOnlySignIn
If you're throwing Viper into comparison, you should compare it against the Widow, not the Mantis, since you can get either at about the same time. Most of my Infiltrators are Agent/Enhanced Cloak evolutions and I don't have problems with OSOKs. Might need to tweak the armor customization toward weapon damage bonus before I get the first few upgrades, though. Even if I don't outright kill a baddie, a power from a squadmate is enough to finish them off.

[capn233]

xelander wrote...

@capn233
Yeah, Cryo ammo takes some getting used to and the Shuriken does freeze stuff better due to the higher base damage (part of why I prefer it over the Tempest). Ultimately, it's a matter of play style and personal preferences. For example, I've tried playing an Assassin build with Warp ammo but I just couldn't really get into it. So I swear by Cryo Ammo and enjoy looking videos of other people using the other Ammos.

I don't like warp, except if you are a biotic and don't want a different power.  Otherwise I would take AP as a bonus ammo, or stick with what you have.  I think cryo can be a fun ammo power, but I never really saw any of the ammo cc's as being all that dramatic with regard to how easy a mission is.

@iOnlySignIn
If you're throwing Viper into comparison, you should compare it against the Widow, not the Mantis, since you can get either at about the same time. Most of my Infiltrators are Agent/Enhanced Cloak evolutions and I don't have problems with OSOKs. Might need to tweak the armor customization toward weapon damage bonus before I get the first few upgrades, though. Even if I don't outright kill a baddie, a power from a squadmate is enough to finish them off.

Not directed at me, and I don't have the Incisor, but... Mantis can be effective, but without cloak bonus, adrenaline rush, or the right ammo power it isn't gauranteed to kill anything more than a basic enemy (some times not even those).  Not that this is a terrible thing since most guns won't either.

I prefer the Viper to any of the sniper rifles in the game though.  Part of why I have little interest in playing a Widow Infiltrator.  But the rate of fire and lower base damage of the Viper means that you potentially will be more exposed to inflict the same amount of damage as you would with the Mantis.

[HolyAvenger]

But there's something so eminently satisfying about headshotting with the Widow...

[horangi88]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Cloak has a cooldown. A pretty long one at that. The process you described (flanking without taking enemy fire) could easily be accomplished without using Cloak - that's how Engineers and Adepts do it, no? Even if you take a little fire along the way you can quickly recover once you reach cover. Defensive Cloak is only needed under very heavy fire IMO.

If I wanted to do it Engineer/Adept style I would play those classes. One of the beauties of the Infiltrator class is the cloaked backstab. Also, you said that the the Mantis CAN'T OSOK on insanity. I'm merely pointing out that it can. Everything else you're saying is moot.

Modifié par horangi88, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:12 .

[xassantex]

eeerrr, the human is lost here.
i get it everyone is standing firm on their own play style which is great, but is there consensus on some aspects of the infiltrator ?
my impressions:
1) mantis vs incisor ... they both suck. 
2) cryo ammo is excellent for cc
3)cloak is in the end situational . Flanking to do some point blank shooting is the most rewarding use and you benefit from the bonus . Moving about is very practical and tactical... and invisibility can save your ass away from a bad spot. Sniping from afar with or without cloak depends on the moment , good if the bonus assures you of an OSOK , otherwise it's not necessary or you do whatever you damn prefer ;p
4) flashbang grenade is great once you have it at rank 4 and are decent at throwing it. Otherwise, use something else. Neural shock is great on organics , or reave and energy drain on synthetics.
5) Passive : idk . only used agent here..

6) forgot incinerate .. doesn't seem too popular. ?

Modifié par xassantex, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:04 .

[CoffeeHolic93]

xassantex wrote...

eeerrr, the human is lost here.
i get it everyone is standing firm on their own play style which is great, but is there consensus on some aspects of the infiltrator ?
my impressions:
1) mantis vs incisor ... they both suck. 
2) cryo ammo is excellent for cc
3)cloak is in the end situational . Flanking to do some point blank shooting is the most rewarding use and you benefit from the bonus . Moving about is very practical and tactical... and invisibility can save your ass away from a bad spot. Sniping from afar with or without cloak depends on the moment , good if the bonus assures you of an OSOK , otherwise it's not necessary or you do whatever you damn prefer ;p
4) flashbang grenade is great once you have it at rank 4 and are decent at throwing it. Otherwise, use something else. Neural shock is great on organics , or reave and energy drain on synthetics.
5) Passive : idk . only used agent here..

6) forgot incinerate .. doesn't seem too popular. ?

Regarding 1, I would only say that the Incisor sucks. Then again - I like the Mantis, so I'm biased aswell.
2) Cryo ammo is great because it doesn't put you on cooldown. I will agree that I rarely see my squadmates freeze anyone, so I can understand why you wouldn't use it.
3) Cloak has saved my butt when I've done something stupid more often than I care to count, and a damage boost is a damage boost. Cloak has a tendency to put the enemy back into cover which sucks for a sniper.
4) If you learn how to throw Flashbangs, then yes they're great. Slam and Neural Shock are both great one-point wonders. 
5) Used both. Didn't notice a difference other than the time dilation which I need since I'm a terrible shot.
6) Incineration blast is one of my favorite powers because of the firedance CC. If you're not getting the AOE version, leave it at 1

[goofyomnivore]

I've only played my infiltrator twice, once regular Insanity and then a run of NG+, so I'm not exactly highly experienced with the class. Here are my thoughts though.

(1) Both are pretty bad-- I would personally rock the Mantis until you get the Viper or Widow. Incisor is too ammo inefficient.

(2) Cryo Ammo is great. However I personally don't care for cryo in this game. The delay on the freeze is annoying sometimes -- plus it makes biotics not respond properly sometimes.

(3) Cloak is best up to interpretation. I've never been cloaked for 8seconds, so I didn't find Enhanced to be all that great, but with that said I didn't really notice the 35% extra damage either.

(4) I prefer Neural Shock personally. Reave and Energy Drain are pretty neat too. I prefer Energy Drain though since shields regenerate last, and the CC effect of Reave is overlapped with vCryo

(5) I personally didn't notice a difference at all.

(6) Agree with Mi-Chan.

[capn233]

Now we have moved into a strange world where the Mantis is bad...

The Mantis and Widow are practically the same gun except the Widow has higher base damage (368 vs 263) and for some reason you get more thermal clip capacity (12 vs 9). The Mantis is fine if you don't miss, and is decent in the hands of your squad too. You can't expect it to have a base damage of 500 since you get it at the beginning of the game. The thermal clip issue is annoying though.

While we are on the subject of hyperbole, cryo ammo cc is pretty mild, like the other ammo power cc's. It isn't game breaking or even game changing. It works fine, but even if you start trying to freeze all the bad guys the effect will start to wear off before you can retarget frozen ones to get the damage bonus. If you focus down the enemies one or two at a time you can get the damage bonus after they freeze, but you aren't really controlling anything except the one target. To make sure I wasn't crazy I did 3 missions last night with squad cryo (Tali LM, Grunt LM, Mordin LM)... fun freezing and breaking the baddies, but not really easier than using disruptor, incendiary, or even AP.

Modifié par capn233, 07 décembre 2011 - 10:11 .

[horangi88]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

horangi88 wrote...

If I wanted to do it Engineer/Adept style I would play those classes.

You don't consider learning and integrating the advantages of different styles. Can't say I'm surprised.

One of the beauties of the Infiltrator class is the cloaked backstab.

What is backstab? Never used this ability in Mass Effect.

Also, you said that the the Mantis CAN'T OSOK on insanity. I'm merely pointing out that it can.

If you are allowed to say that, I am allowed to say that the Incisor has no ammo problem whatsoever. Just get consistent headshots and never waste a single shot. Duh.

Everything else you're saying is moot.

So moot them. Or are we making random general claims now? Well then "Every girl you know is ugly."

Uh, I play all of the classes in multiple ways so there's no need to get ****y about it bro. I'm pointing out that if I want to do it no-cloak style I'll play another class. Also, cloaking and blasting someone in the back of the head with a shotty at close quarters counts as a backstab IMHO. Lastly,  I don't see the logic(?) in your other comments so I'll leave the floor to you from here on out.

Respect

Modifié par horangi88, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:24 .