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[Firky]

*lots of spoilers*

What's up with Anders, Dumat and Corypheus? 

Probably nothing, but I feel like I'm missing something. Does anyone have any insight? I was just trolling through DAII's amulets (don't ask) and found some stuff documented on the wiki, as follows.

Firstly, if Anders is in the party at the end of Legacy, you get the Seal of Dumat. http://dragonage.wik...i/Seal_of_Dumat

I think the Seals on Corypheus' prison were something to do with Malcolm Hawke, old gods and blood magic. Dumat is/was an old God.

If Anders is in the party when you get to Corypheus, Corypheus says, "Dumat? Have you forsaken me? I am your faithful servant..." What's all that about? Is it because Anders, through the taint, is hearing a conversation? Or something else?

Did Corypheus posses a Warden and escape his prison? It couldn't be Anders, right, because you can complete Legacy without taking him along? Also, technically, he could be dead?

There's also a bit where Anders thinks that the Chantry has lied about the whole Golden City deal, to justify locking up mages. But then, he picks up the Seal of Dumat and sees it as proof Corypheus really was a Magister. I don't get it.

Am I missing some simple piece of the puzzle, or just seeing meaning where there is none? Any ideas?

[EmperorSahlertz]

The seal of Dumat is simply an amulet that Corypheus wore before he was corrupted and transformed into the being he is now. It also semi-confirms that mages did indeed enter the Golden City (wether or not it was ever Golden is still in question), and have some connection to the Darkspawn. The Seal of Dumat was an amulet who was worn by the ancient Magisters of Tevinter.

If Corypheus has possessed any Grey Warden it is either Janneka or Larius, not Anders or Carver/Bethany.

[whykikyouwhy]

Corypheus should recite those lines regardless of Anders' presence in the party. He's calling out to the god that supposedly led him into the Rotten Twinkie (or, Golden) City.

There is speculation that Corypheus made a body jump into Larius or Janeka. Lots of circumstancial evidence points toward this, though nothing is definitive. (There are a few older threads on this topic.) And yes, technically, he could be dead.

I think Anders feels that the Golden City was not all that it's supposed to be, as described in the chant at least. It's supposed to be either a sort of heaven or the residence of the Maker. But Corypheus mentions that when the magisters arrived (as in, breached the "city" gates or walls or whatever they needed some powerful ritual for), the city was "already black." There's some hint then that the Chantry *may* have skewed the truth of what the city is.

[Firky]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The Seal of Dumat was an amulet who was worn by the ancient Magisters of Tevinter.

That would make sense. How do you know that? Like is "Tevinter Magisters all have amulets with a seal of Dumat on them" written somewhere in game etc?

I guess "seal" as in, stamped on an amulet and "seal" as in holding a prison magically together could very easily be different things. 

Is the wiki incorrect when it says that the Dumat stuff only happens if Anders is in the party? I took Anders and only played Legacy once.

Edit: Oh hang on. So, Corypheus only drops the amulet if Anders is there because he's the only one that it would recognise (and equip) it? Not sure about the dialogue, though.

Modifié par Firky, 22 novembre 2011 - 11:12 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@whykikyouwhy -- I don't know where people get the idea of the city being already black. Corypheus never said 'already'. He said that instead of golden city like 'Dumat' promised, the magisters found darkness and corruption, which is true whether or not it was black when they arrived.

Considering the Golden City used to be visible in the Fade until the magisters tried to break in, turning it black, I don't think the 'already black' theory is a correct interpretation of what Cory said.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Shadow of Light Dragon - Hmm, well one inadvertent word. Perhaps the lack of coffee.

I know that the Black version of the City is a fixture in the Fade, but where is it referenced that the "Golden" version was evident/visible from there as well?

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 22 novembre 2011 - 11:44 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Edit - double post

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 22 novembre 2011 - 11:34 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Shadow of Light Dragon - Hmm, well one inadvertent word. Perhaps the lack of coffee.

Heh, don't worry. I've just see this theory thrown around in the past and never completely understood why people went so gaga over the idea.

I know that the Black version of the City is a fixturein the Fade, but where is it referenced that the "Golden" version was evident/visible from there as well?

Well, you have me there. I was deducing that the Golden City was as visible and fixed in the Fade as the Black City now is. How else would the magisters have been enticed there if it didn't look as golden as they were apparently promised? Not that people can't be fooled, of course.

I will grant, however, that I have nothing in terms of actual dialogue/Codex entries. Even the entry on the Black City says that, quote "It was golden and beautiful once, so the story goes", but that said, only someone who was alive since the First Blight or prior could tell us what colour the city was.

[Eudaemonium]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Heh, don't worry. I've just see this theory thrown around in the past and never completely understood why people went so gaga over the idea.

I know that the Black version of the City is a fixturein the Fade, but where is it referenced that the "Golden" version was evident/visible from there as well?

Well, you have me there. I was deducing that the Golden City was as visible and fixed in the Fade as the Black City now is. How else would the magisters have been enticed there if it didn't look as golden as they were apparently promised? Not that people can't be fooled, of course.

I will grant, however, that I have nothing in terms of actual dialogue/Codex entries. Even the entry on the Black City says that, quote "It was golden and beautiful once, so the story goes", but that said, only someone who was alive since the First Blight or prior could tell us what colour the city was.

I think the actual line Corypheus says is "it was black for... how long", which is pretty mabiguous. I assume people go gaga over it because it's seen as confirmation that the Chantry's story isn't necessarily the truth (which everyone kinda knew anyway), but not not-true in the way some people might have expected (i.e. that darkspawn had nothing to do with the black city to begin with).

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

This is what he says, quoted directly from the dialogue:

"The light. We sought the golden light. You [Dumat] offered...the power of the gods themselves."

"But it was...black...corrupt. Darkness...ever since. How long?"

(connecting dialogue branch) "How long have I slumbered?"

"The city! It was supposed to be golden! It was supposed to be ours!"

[Herr Uhl]

I find it rather odd that he'd remark on it being black if that was to be expected from looking at it.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Herr Uhl - What is unconfirmed is if, prior to it being a visible yet "black" feature in the Fade, it was ever visible as golden. It could be that it was never part of the horizon - that it was long reputed legend and lore and thus was so fixed in the minds of the magisters, it was a temptation. Maybe there used to be some other proof of its existence/reality, and whatever made the city a black shadow in the Fade (if it wasn't the magisters attempt to gain access), altered that as well.

[Herr Uhl]

So they created the city as a fixture then? Or it was some other color than black, but not gold? Maybe beige?

I'm agreeing on chantry canon in so much as that there was a city though. I don't think that the darkspawn were created by the incident (but blights were), but that is another story.

[AlexXIV]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Shadow of Light Dragon - Hmm, well one inadvertent word. Perhaps the lack of coffee.

Heh, don't worry. I've just see this theory thrown around in the past and never completely understood why people went so gaga over the idea.

I know that the Black version of the City is a fixturein the Fade, but where is it referenced that the "Golden" version was evident/visible from there as well?

Well, you have me there. I was deducing that the Golden City was as visible and fixed in the Fade as the Black City now is. How else would the magisters have been enticed there if it didn't look as golden as they were apparently promised? Not that people can't be fooled, of course.

I will grant, however, that I have nothing in terms of actual dialogue/Codex entries. Even the entry on the Black City says that, quote "It was golden and beautiful once, so the story goes", but that said, only someone who was alive since the First Blight or prior could tell us what colour the city was.

I think the City was black already. For logic reasons.

If the city had been golden, and the seat of the Maker. Which means that the Maker sits there, then things would be different. For once why would it turn black by entering? He'd mention it if it turned black right there on entering. Also the Maker wasn't present, so something must have happened before.

Obviously the city was black and corrupted already, yet the corruption was sealed in the Black City. Dumat actually tricked the Tevinters to open it though so the corruption could spread. For whatever reason. Or maybe Dumat didn't even know that it would happen. We don't know that.

However, the corruption of the 'once golden city' must have happened before the Tevinters got there, probably long before because the Maker wasn't really anywhere to be seen for a long while. I guess a battle of the Old Gods vs the Maker or the Creators, or something like this. Something of epic proportions I'd guess. Which resulted in all participants (gods and mortals) being locked out of the mortal world and the Fade. Or maybe imprisoned deep below the earth, who knows.

Could also be that the city was never really golden, but I doubt that. Because if something of a myth exists there is most of the time a grain of truth to it.

[RagingCyclone]

AlexXIV---that's an interesting theory. So are you thinking that the Golden City was actually the Pandora's Box of DA? I can see that being the case if that is what you are getting at.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 22 novembre 2011 - 03:49 .

[AlexXIV]

RagingCyclone wrote...

AlexXIV---that's an interesting theory. So are you thinking that the Golden City was actually the Pandora's Box of DA? I can see that being the case if that is what you are getting at.

Maybe not originally, but you can put it this way. For me 2 things are clear. The city was tainted before the Tevinters entered, and the Blights started after they entered. Whether the Tevinters are to blame for the tainting I don't know, but surely they are for entering. Or for listening to Dumat in the first place.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 novembre 2011 - 03:54 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I've long felt it was a Pandora's box, the refuse collection of the creation process, or just a sort of quasi-anti-matter/shadow heap (shadow in the sense of an opposing energy or substance to light). The "golden" bit being magical locks perhaps? Or just the outer sheen? And, perhaps, because it cannot be readily accessed and because it's all sparkly glowy, mortals believed it to be the seat of the god(s).

Hence the "rotten twinkie." Once you crack it open, all sorts of vileness emerges (and taints the populace).

But such are my fluff theories. Silliness, perhaps.

[AlexXIV]

Maybe silly maybe not. I think I am starting to like the theory that it maybe looked golden from outside but was rotten once you entered. Kind of reminds me of the story about the King-Priests of the Irda (Dragonlance, anyone?) who were a pretty rotten bunch of people who upheld an aura of superiority with magic. But then it led to the Cataclysm as a punishment for their many blasphemies.

[bleetman]

The Maker: Hey guys, look at me rocking out in my totally golden city. I bet you guys wish you had a golden city. But you don't, because I trapped you deep within the bowels of the earth.
The Old Gods: Shut up Maker, nobody even likes you. Hey, mankind! Here's magic. Go use it to invade the Golden City.
Magisters: We're unbelievably stupid, so that sounds like a good idea.
The Old Gods: That'll show him.

Later.

The Maker: Oh noooo, you're invading my home. Woe is me! Woe! Is! Meeee!
The Old Gods: Shut up, Maker! Get in there humanity, and usurp his power to free u- uh, I mean. Y'know. You guys are great. As you were.
Magisters: Hey, it's black. Black isn't golden?
The Old Gods: ...What?
The Maker: /troll face

Even later.

Chantry: We're really sorry and everything! Come back to us!
The Maker: The number you have dialed has not been recognised. Please try again.

True story.

Modifié par bleetman, 22 novembre 2011 - 06:27 .

[esper]

bleetman wrote...

The Maker: Hey guys, look at me rocking out in my totally golden city. I bet you guys wish you had a golden city. But you don't, because I trapped you deep within the bowels of the earth.
The Old Gods: Shut up Maker, nobody even likes you. Hey, mankind! Here's magic. Go use it to invade the Golden City.
Magisters: We're unbelievably stupid, so that sounds like a good idea.
The Old Gods: That'll show him.

Later.

The Maker: Oh noooo, you're invading my home. Woe is me! Woe! Is! Meeee!
The Old Gods: Shut up, Maker! Get in there humanity, and usurp his power to free u- uh, I mean. Y'know. You guys are great. As you were.
Magisters: Hey, it's black. Black isn't golden?
The Old Gods: ...What?
The Maker: /troll face

Even later.

Chantry: We're really sorry and everything! Come back to us!
The Maker: The number you have dialed has not been recognised. Please try again.

True story.

I did not need to spit milk all over my screen...  

[AlexXIV]

bleetman wrote...

The Maker: Hey guys, look at me rocking out in my totally golden city. I bet you guys wish you had a golden city. But you don't, because I trapped you deep within the bowels of the earth.
The Old Gods: Shut up Maker, nobody even likes you. Hey, mankind! Here's magic. Go use it to invade the Golden City.
Magisters: We're unbelievably stupid, so that sounds like a good idea.
The Old Gods: That'll show him.

Later.

The Maker: Oh noooo, you're invading my home. Woe is me! Woe! Is! Meeee!
The Old Gods: Shut up, Maker! Get in there humanity, and usurp his power to free u- uh, I mean. Y'know. You guys are great. As you were.
Magisters: Hey, it's black. Black isn't golden?
The Old Gods: ...What?
The Maker: /troll face

Even later.

Chantry: We're really sorry and everything! Come back to us!
The Maker: The number you have dialed has not been recognised. Please try again.

True story.

No it starts with Arlathan. The humans go to the elves and shout: 'All your base are belong to us!' Then the elves shout: 'Only over our dead bodies'. Which prompts the humans to turn the elves into dead bodies with bloodmagic that powerful that Arlathan becomes ground zero. Actually ground minus even. And I think that's actually the event that taints the 'Golden City'. Why? Because I like if bad behaviour does not go unpunished.

So basically when the Tevinters enter the Black City there are no gods left, not the Maker, not the Old Gods, not the Creators, all went boom or were blown away long before.

Another theory is that the Tevinters tainted it with their blood ritual by sacrificing hundrets or thousands of their slaves.

We don't know what kind of impact magic does have on the Fade, but I wager mighty bloodmagic of epic proportions can have a really bad influence on the Fade. Even if you are not trying to enter it.

[jlb524]

Black is the new Golden.

[Urzon]

AlexXIV wrote...

No it starts with Arlathan. The humans go to the elves and shout: 'All your base are belong to us!' Then the elves shout: 'Only over our dead bodies'. Which prompts the humans to turn the elves into dead bodies with bloodmagic that powerful that Arlathan becomes ground zero. Actually ground minus even. And I think that's actually the event that taints the 'Golden City'. Why? Because I like if bad behaviour does not go unpunished.

So basically when the Tevinters enter the Black City there are no gods left, not the Maker, not the Old Gods, not the Creators, all went boom or were blown away long before.

Another theory is that the Tevinters tainted it with their blood ritual by sacrificing hundrets or thousands of their slaves.

We don't know what kind of impact magic does have on the Fade, but I wager mighty bloodmagic of epic proportions can have a really bad influence on the Fade. Even if you are not trying to enter it.

I always though the Golden/Black City was Arlathan, well Fade-Arlathan. They said before that the Fade is closely tied to the physical realm, so much so that the Fade is (loosely) shaped around it, as seen in the Blackmarsh.

Since Arlathan was a huge fixture in old Thedas, it can be easily said that there would most likely be a Fade verison of it, and with the tales of all the elves being magical; the physical Arlathan and Fade Arlathan could be tied together more so than most places. So when the Magisters sunk Arlathan, the close ties inbetween the two Arlathans might have trapped the spirits of the killed elves, and maybe twisted them with the huge backlash of blood magic.

So, my theory is that there was once a Golden City, and it was Arlathan in the time of the elves. The "goldenness" of the city might have came from the wards or spell the elves put up to keep out intruders? Demons, Tevinters, any other types of horrors the Fade offer maybe? The wards kept up until the Tevinters were finally able to pierce them.

Then, they got doused with the boiling cauldren of hate, anger, death, despair, and blood magic that was the twisted remains of all the elvaan spirits.

How did the Golden City become the Seat of the Maker? I'm guessing it got the Mount Olympus treatment. Some mages in the Fade saw a Golden City (or now Black City) that they couldn't get to, and they weaved a story/legend of how that must be the seat of some powerful beings or God(s). They story branched and evolved from there before the Chantry finally picked it up and made it official.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Urzon - Or...it's the whole repackaging of ancient religions/religious motifs as something new? I've mulled on whether or not the Maker is one entity or symbolic of several wrapped up as one. Or perhaps literally a god-package - perhaps "he" is where the old gods are trapped. I think some of the gods in the DA-verse overlap in the way that myths from various lands do. One (?) common core element, but different names & faces associated to it based on region or society.

I'm still curious as to why the main form of the black city in the Fade looks like Lake Calenhad.

[Firky]

Wow. I'd hardly even thought about the Golden/Black City. Can someone go back about a hundred steps for me, for a moment?

What exactly is Dumat's role in the whole thing? He taught the magisters blood magic and promised them the Golden City?

Why would he do that?

I still have a thing about this "Seal of Dumat" amulet, too. If all Ancient Tevinter Magisters wore it, why? Just like a token of their cause/leader/god/etc?