132 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@AlexXIV -- The Golden City being golden from the outside but already black on the inside, that is a logical theory to me. My main problem with the whole premise of the magisters supposedly being tricked is that I can't see them being so thoroughly fooled into believing that the Black City was really golden even though it looked black. This is going on my assumption that the City was always a fixture in the Fade, whatever its outer colour.

Whether or not you are correct, I don't know, but it makes more sense as a theory. Did the magisters corrupt it? Don't know. Were they tricked into going there and setting off the Blights? Definitely looks that way, but it wasn't necessarily Dumat who did the fooling.

@Firky -- I have hijacked your thread. Sorry. >.< FWIW, Anders has a giant chip on his shoulder where Chantry dogma/history is involved. He doesn't believe that magisters corrupted the Golden City because he thinks the story exists solely to portray the evils/corruption of magic. Whether or not he's correct we don't know. If the City was already black on the inside then it would disprove that particular part of the story, but it wouldn't wipe away the fact that due to the magisters' invasion the Blights began, or that the magisters themselves became darkspawn.

[Firky]

Feel free to hijack. (It's been interesting.)

Did Dumat want an army of darkspawn or did he have some other goal?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Yay!

Cory thinks Dumat was the one who spoke to him about the Golden City, but we don't know if this is true. A voice speaking inside your head could, after all, be anyone.

If it was Dumat, what was his motive?

Chantry lore is that the Maker sealed the Old Gods in underground prisons for luring worship to themselves and away from Him. If the Old Gods are indeed sealed down there, why didn't Dumat simply lure the magisters into the Deep Roads to free them? Why send them to the Golden City? Revenge against the Maker? Did he think there would be power there the magisters could use to free him? Did he know the magisters would become darkspawn? I find it hard to believe the Old Gods want to be freed by becoming tainted archdemons.

So in my mind it was Dumat for reasons unknown, but Dumat didn't realise the consequences, OR (preferred theory) a third party claiming to be Dumat but knowing full well the havoc it would wreak.

(I *think*, although I can't search through codices right now, that Dumat is claimed to be the Old God who first taught Blood Magic to the Tevinters. The seal being something 'all' ancient magisters wore might simply be a token of recognition?)

Anyway, enough from me for now. I should do some work XD

[AlexXIV]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@AlexXIV -- The Golden City being golden from the outside but already black on the inside, that is a logical theory to me. My main problem with the whole premise of the magisters supposedly being tricked is that I can't see them being so thoroughly fooled into believing that the Black City was really golden even though it looked black. This is going on my assumption that the City was always a fixture in the Fade, whatever its outer colour.

Whether or not you are correct, I don't know, but it makes more sense as a theory. Did the magisters corrupt it? Don't know. Were they tricked into going there and setting off the Blights? Definitely looks that way, but it wasn't necessarily Dumat who did the fooling.

I may be wrong but I don't think Cory ever states that they saw a golden city. He just says that a supposed golden city was black when they arrived. Not sure if Dumat tricked him actually, or why. But there is the possibility that Dumat himself didn't know what was going on in there. For all we know the last time he saw it, it may indeed still have been golden. So basically it is possible that Dumat indeed sent the Tevinters there to free the Old Gods but he didn't know of the corruption and so it became a curse not only for the Tevinters but also the Old Gods and instead of being freed they now get corrupted by the ones who were supposed to free them and search for them.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 novembre 2011 - 10:04 .

[RagingCyclone]

Shadow of Light Dragon...you bring up a point about the old gods that I have always wondered about. The chantry states that the darkspawn taint the old god to start the blights. But I have always wondered if the old gods were actually the source of the taint. GW's take the taint in to hear the darkspawn...ds are drawn to the old gods by their song...so I have always felt that the old gods are the source and that is how the ds find them. Just a thought.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Corypheus does have an extra line about Dumat forsaking him if Anders is in the party but I think that's only supposed to mean Corypheus coincidentally has something else to do while Anders has a breif conversation with Hawke.

As far as whether the city was ever golden, I don't think there is enough enough information to say for sure. The more I think about the "Darkness... ever since" line, the more it seems to make sense as both a description of himself and the city. So I think it could be either. The story of Awakening seems to imply there is some connection between the Old Gods and the darkspawn, but Corypheus existence makes me think that regardless if the Chantry's story is correct or not the magisters did start the blight.

The motives of the Old Gods is probably the biggest question in this whole thing. The Chant of Light seems to imply they don't want to become Archdemons. So does Morrigan and the codex entry on Urthemiel. We don't know for certain however.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

(woo, break time!)

@AlexXIV -- You are correct as far as I have seen about Cory's dialogue, he never explicitly states he saw the Golden City, only that he was promised it and it was "meant to be gold". I was under the impression the dialogue implied the City was gold, Cory knew it was gold (or had seen it was gold in the Fade), and was simply upset that when he got there it wasn't the colour he thought -- whether due to the magisters' arrival or some other reason.

But I'm not convinced that Dumat (if it was him) would send magisters to the Golden City to free them. The darkspawn have proven they can find and unearth the Old Gods, so why couldn't the mages and dwarves do the same thing? If the reason is it's too hard to find the OGs without the taint, then Dumat would have had to have known the City would taint the magisters, unless he thought the Maker kept maps hidden beneath his throne or something. 'Dumat' apparently didn't tell the magisters that he and the Old Gods wanted to be freed.

@RagingCyclone -- The darkspawn tainting the Old Gods is verified by the Architect in Awakening, though. He says the song of the OGs compell the darkspawn to hunt from them, but as soon as they reach their goal they destroy it by corrupting them into archdemons. Since the Architect himself caused the DA:O Blight, he has firsthand knowledge and I don't think he has reason to lie. Darkspawn can be freed from the song if they go through a Joining ritual. It's also been considered that when we run out of OGs they'll be free. But did they exist before the Blights? Did the GoldenBlack City create the OGs or were they already there? Did the magisters merely 'start the song' or did they sire all darkspawn?

[AlexXIV]

I always wonder this. Why would the Maker need a city and a seat? Is he a person who needs to sit and need houses, who lived in the houses and why, etc. Thing is cities are a thing of mortals. We need them. So question would be if the Maker was really a god or just a poweful mortal and the city maybe the source of his power like a magic device or something. So if the Tevinters would get their hands on this device they would be just as powerful, and thus able to free the Old Gods. I don't think the Old Gods knew about the taint and what it would bring about. Because it seems to me that being tainted isn't a preferable condition. Nobody would willingly become tainted ... aside from the silly Grey Wardens ...

Or it was revenge. Maybe he knew it was his last chance to take revenge on the Maker's children before the Old Gods disappear in oblivion or whatever for all time. Motivations could have been many depending on the personality of the Old God. It wouldn't be the first time a curse is cast out of malice by a dying person. Or creature.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 23 novembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Well, who says the Maker (if real) needs the Golden City? You could say He just wanted a visible fixture in the Fade to remind people He was there. We don't know, but there are plenty more options available than necessity

And the magisters, seeing something shiny and thinking it was the house of something powerful, wanted it for themselves. Why not?

[RagingCyclone]

Shadow--about the Architect that is tru...and don't think would lie...but I also don't if he is correct in his assumption about the corrpting since he is not even sure how he came to be and why he can resist the song.

Jedi Master-- since to codex are written by people in Thedas again do we assume their information was accurate. Morrigan herself admits there is much she knows based on what Flemeth taught her.

AlexXIV-- the thing with the Maker and the house thing is very similar to Greek Mythology...Maker si like Zeus in the DA universe. At least those are the parallels I have seen.

[Meyne]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Urzon - Or...it's the whole repackaging of ancient religions/religious motifs as something new? I've mulled on whether or not the Maker is one entity or symbolic of several wrapped up as one. Or perhaps literally a god-package - perhaps "he" is where the old gods are trapped. I think some of the gods in the DA-verse overlap in the way that myths from various lands do. One (?) common core element, but different names & faces associated to it based on region or society.

Now I'm thinking of that banter between Merrill and Sebastian where she tells him what she thinks of the Elven gods and he comments that perhaps the Maker and those gods are just different names for the same thing. I think we've all batted around the idea that the Old Gods, the Elven Pantheon, and the Maker are just re-naming of similar concepts, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't terribly far from the truth.

[Tahleron1]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Well, who says the Maker (if real) needs the Golden City? You could say He just wanted a visible fixture in the Fade to remind people He was there. We don't know, but there are plenty more options available than necessity

And the magisters, seeing something shiny and thinking it was the house of something powerful, wanted it for themselves. Why not?

I doubt the Maker actually exists, the real reason/cause of the Old Gods imprisonment will be the "aaaaah" moment of it all.

[AlexXIV]

RagingCyclone wrote...

AlexXIV-- the thing with the Maker and the house thing is very similar to Greek Mythology...Maker si like Zeus in the DA universe. At least those are the parallels I have seen.

Exactly, the olympians in the greek mythology are built just like most families in that time were. So I conclude either they were real people and got deified later in song and poetry ... or they were just a fashioned myth. I tend to think that everything has a reason, better or worse some times, but a reason. And same way I wonder why the olympians in ancient greek were the way they were, I wonder bout the Maker the same thing.

[Gervaise]

As I understand it the Maker was the first creator spirit, which is why the first children were reflections of it and why the second children, people, have a soul which is the essence of the Maker within them and what allows them to enter the Fade in dreams. The golden city could be just a fugurative description of where the Maker was meant to reside in the Fade, a place glowing with the Maker's light. If the Maker had already left that part of the Fade when the Magisters entered it, then of course it would be black because the light of the Maker was no longer there.

The old gods were powerful demons that had crossed into the material world, possibly possessing dragons in order to do so and perhaps for some reason were now trapped in the material world (like Justice claims to be). May be they already possessed the body hopping ability so it was not possible just to kill them and make the demon return to the Fade, so the Maker (or servants of the Maker in the material world) caused them to be imprisoned underground. They realised the only way to be freed would be for the Maker to be either destroyed or possibly controlled, hence sending powerful blood mages into the Fade who had the ability to control minds, but the lure was the promise of immortality. The demons thought that the Magisters would be able to absorb the power of the Fade, which is unchanging and use it to locate and free them, but instead they were corrupted by it. However, it did give their children, the darkspawn, the ability to hear the song of the old gods and locate them. For some reason Corypheus at least is not able to hear the song of the old gods or may be his mind was attuned to Dumat and so if he was destroyed at the end of the First Blight, that would account for it. According to the Grey Warden records in his prison, he seemed to have the same magnetic draw for darkspawn as the Archdemons, so may be the "song" of the old gods is just their minds sending out a call for help but in a rhythmic, chant-like way.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I can't remember where I read this, but I keep wanting to say that somewhere in the lore it says that the Maker abandoned the Golden City after the First Sin, (Dumat convincing humanity to turn away from the Maker) so it would have not been in use by the time the magisters breached it anyway. I have no idea exactly where I remember that from though, so it could be that I'm misremembering.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 novembre 2011 - 01:19 .

[AlexXIV]

Well if he Old Gods are demons then they are probably some of the Maker's first children. Because the maker created the spirits, and corrupted spirits become demons. Maybe it is like in christian myth/fantasy with 'fallen angels' who want to return home or at least conquer heaven if their god does not let them back in.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think David Gaider or someone said on the dev team that the Old Gods were said to be somehow not created by the Maker at all.

[Herr Uhl]

Will this suffice as evidence that the Golden City was visible before the incident?

David Gaider wrote...

The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world.

http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

[whykikyouwhy]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Will this suffice as evidence that the Golden City was visible before the incident?

David Gaider wrote...

The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world.

http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

I think awareness and visibility could be two different things here. As it stands, we could say that people now are aware of the existence of heaven - as in, it is talked about, it is believed in, it is something that appears in religious teachings around the world (this of course doesn't mean that everyone believes in the existence of heaven, just that it is a well known concept that is real for some, hazy for others).  /RL religion reference

I'm not disagreeing that the Golden City existed, or that the people of Thedas were able to see it (as golden) before the invasion into it. There's certainly that possibility. But that doesn't mean that they saw it in the Fade. Maybe it was visible on the normal horizon, or from certain heights (like Olympus). Or heck, maybe even from a person's peripheral vision. Maybe it was like Brigadoon. There's just a lot of flexibility there with the possibilities for how it appeared, and when.

[AlexXIV]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Will this suffice as evidence that the Golden City was visible before the incident?

David Gaider wrote...

The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world.

http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

So one has to wonder why we don't know the original name of the 'Maker' and not much about Him before Andrastae. I can imagine that a lot of knowledge was hidden from the common folk maybe because they could get ideas. And the Chantry doesn't want people to have ideas aside from those that they are given by the Chantry. Which concludes that most things the Chantry 'knows' about the Maker are probably wrong or misinterpreted. 

Modifié par AlexXIV, 24 novembre 2011 - 01:16 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That strikes me as a bit of a stretch to conclude just from that. I believe It's common knowledge that Andraste was said to be advocating a return to the worship of the Maker rather than a new belief system altogether being created.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 novembre 2011 - 04:24 .

[Herr Uhl]

AlexXIV wrote...

So one has to wonder why we don't know the original name of the 'Maker' and not much about Him before Andrastae.

Creator? The boss? The grand Chutzpah? The setting is a few milennia after that was, if it ever was, a major religion.

AlexXIV wrote...

 And the Chantry doesn't want people to have ideas aside from those that they are given by the Chantry. Which concludes that most things the Chantry 'knows' about the Maker are probably wrong or misinterpreted. 

Or they are trying to be a monolithic religion? You know, without hiding anything.

[AlexXIV]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That strikes me as a bit of a stretch to conclude just from that. I believe It's common knowledge that Andraste was said to be advocating a return to the worship of the Maker rather than a new belief system altogether being created.

Well Christianity started off as a sort of jewish sect. Now it is a world religion. What Andraste wanted doesn't necessarily have much to do with what those who followed her made of it. Actually I doubt that the Chantry as it exists has much to do with Andraste's vision. Chantry is waiting for the Maker to return ... for thousand years ... and they claim the Maker will return if people turn back to the Maker ... I don't know, something does not seem to work there. And I think it is the Chantry.

[Gervaise]

The Chantry seem to put a lot of words into Andraste's mouth that weren't really hers. For example, the chantry sisters by the board in Kirkwall says that "and assault on the Maker's house is an assault on the Maker himself." To date I haven't seen anything of the sort in the Chant of Light. Andraste speaks of the assault of the Magisters on the Golden City, which could be said to be an assault on the Maker but clearly the Chantry seem to be implying that an assault on the Chantry is an attack on the Maker, which is great if you want to discourage rebellion, just as implying that certain parties have Divine Right over other people.

I would be interested to know what the dev team said about the old gods not being creations of the Maker. Naturally he didn't create the demons that became the old gods, they were corrupted spirits of his created first children, but the idea that the old gods were powerful demons who crossed into the material world is found in the teaching of Andraste, so if the dev team have said this isn't true, then they are definitely contradicting her words and thus implying that none of what she says may be the truth.

[RagingCyclone]

AlexXIV wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

That strikes me as a bit of a stretch to conclude just from that. I believe It's common knowledge that Andraste was said to be advocating a return to the worship of the Maker rather than a new belief system altogether being created.

Well Christianity started off as a sort of jewish sect. Now it is a world religion. What Andraste wanted doesn't necessarily have much to do with what those who followed her made of it. Actually I doubt that the Chantry as it exists has much to do with Andraste's vision. Chantry is waiting for the Maker to return ... for thousand years ... and they claim the Maker will return if people turn back to the Maker ... I don't know, something does not seem to work there. And I think it is the Chantry.

Very true. There are hints of this when you talk to the Guardian to the Sacred Ashes. What he tells of Andraste, and what the spectre's in the guantlet also say, contradict the chantry in several ways. One being that none of them state anything why clerics can only be women.