132 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

How do they contradict what the Chantry says? He doesn't go into a lot of detail about her. The only one of the spectres that seem to even possibly imply anything explicitly different than what the Chantry says is Archon Hesserien. I think Leliana mentions that one of the doctrinal differences between the Imperial and Andrastian Chantry is the question of whether he killed Andraste out of genuine pity or not. But most accounts of the betrayal of Andraste by Chantry scholars seem to believe he do so anyway. So that appears to confirm what the Chant of Light says as well.

[RagingCyclone]

But none of them talk about the Chant of Light nor spreading it to the world to bring back the Maker. Instead the Guardian states he is there until his task is done (protecting the Ashes) or until the Imperium crumbles. There is nothing said about awaiting the return of the Maker as the chantry suggests. Even when he talks to Leliana and states the Maker has left, he says nothing about a return.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 25 novembre 2011 - 12:04 .

[Herr Uhl]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well Christianity started off as a sort of jewish sect. Now it is a world religion. What Andraste wanted doesn't necessarily have much to do with what those who followed her made of it. Actually I doubt that the Chantry as it exists has much to do with Andraste's vision. Chantry is waiting for the Maker to return ... for thousand years ... and they claim the Maker will return if people turn back to the Maker ... I don't know, something does not seem to work there. And I think it is the Chantry.

They had the maker, but then they burned what turned him back. They are trying to show that humanity are not a bag of dicks to him, metaphorically speaking.

I don't see why this so odd.

RagingCyclone wrote...

Very true. There are hints of this when you talk to the Guardian to the Sacred Ashes. What he tells of Andraste, and what the spectre's in the guantlet also say, contradict the chantry in several ways. One being that none of them state anything why clerics can only be women. 

Really, the big contradiction is the gender of their higher clergy?

Gervaise wrote...

The Chantry seem to put a lot of words into Andraste's mouth that weren't really hers. For example, the chantry sisters by the board in Kirkwall says that "and assault on the Maker's house is an assault on the Maker himself." To date I haven't seen anything of the sort in the Chant of Light. Andraste speaks of the assault of the Magisters on the Golden City, which could be said to be an assault on the Maker but clearly the Chantry seem to be implying that an assault on the Chantry is an attack on the Maker, which is great if you want to discourage rebellion, just as implying that certain parties have Divine Right over other people.

Err, they are saying that they tried to "usurp the maker" and it was due to "hubris". I don't see how this contradicts what Corypheus himself directly says. They were promised the power of the gods.

I would be interested to know what the dev team said about the old gods not being creations of the Maker. Naturally he didn't create the demons that became the old gods, they were corrupted spirits of his created first children, but the idea that the old gods were powerful demons who crossed into the material world is found in the teaching of Andraste, so if the dev team have said this isn't true, then they are definitely contradicting her words and thus implying that none of what she says may be the truth.

The Old Gods were trapped in their ancient prisons underneath the earth. Their minds, however, roamed the Fade -- presumably the same as any dreamer's might -- and contacted the first magisters (who back then were known as "dreamers" and had learned on their own to walk the Fade as mages do now).

So they weren't spirits, really, no. Spirits are creatures that are native to the Fade.

This was said by the Gaider in the old forums, but they have sweeped all of them away.

[Herr Uhl]

RagingCyclone wrote...

But none of them talk about the Chant of Light nor spreading it to the world to bring back the Maker. Instead the Guardian states he is there until his task is done (protecting the Ashes) or until the Imperium crumbles. There is nothing said about awaiting the return of the Maker as the chantry suggests. Even when he talks to Leliana and states the Maker has left, he says nothing about a return.

The maker supposedly was with them when she was alive and then turned away again once she was burned.

They are trying to make him come back.

Edit: He was turned back to them by Andraste's singing. They imagine if they make all of the world sing the same as her he might notice.

And the chant of light, much like the bible, was written after the fact.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 25 novembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[Lynata]

Something potentially important - the Chantry cannot "lie" when everybody in Tevinter believed the Golden City really was golden. You could call it a mistake, but ultimately there's a big difference between deliberate misdirection and merely believing what the magisters told them.

Archon: "Sup, we're going to the Golden City! Prepare the sacrifices!"
People: "Aww."

Regarding the gender of Andrastian Chantry clergy - I thought it's obvious that this is an attempt to mimick the role of the Prophetess. There's even the idea of all priestesses being spiritual wives to the Maker.
Interestingly, the Imperial Chantry employs male priests as well.

[AlexXIV]

Herr Uhl wrote...

 They are trying to show that humanity are not a bag of dicks to him, metaphorically speaking.

I don't see why this so odd.

If you put it like that it isn't odd. Just that all of Thedas prays to the Maker for ... centuries ... and yet nothing of Him to be seen or heard. Does He wait that every last man and woman prays? Either the Chantry is doing it wrong, or the whole 'the Maker returns if we prove worthy' thing is not true.

Basically they promised generation after generation after generation that the Maker will return if they follow the Chant, so they follow the Chant. What's missing is the Maker.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think at any point they promised that the Maker's return was imminent. The Chant supposedly needs to be sung from the four corners of the world, that is supposed to be what proves to the Maker that mankind has finally turned back to him.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 novembre 2011 - 01:10 .

[AlexXIV]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think at any point they promised that the Maker's return was imminent. The Chant supposedly needs to be sung from the four corners of the world, that is supposed to be what proves to the Maker that mankind has finally turned back to him.

Of course they didn't promise imminent return. That would be foolish, wouldn't it? Especially if they know that it's a lie.

[EmperorSahlertz]

AlexXIV wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think at any point they promised that the Maker's return was imminent. The Chant supposedly needs to be sung from the four corners of the world, that is supposed to be what proves to the Maker that mankind has finally turned back to him.

Of course they didn't promise imminent return. That would be foolish, wouldn't it? Especially if they know that it's a lie.

They don't believe it is a lie. It is all conjecture. They believe that once the "word of the Maker" is sung from all four corners of the world, the Maker will find Thedas worthy again of his attention. Some people find solace in that way of thinking.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 25 novembre 2011 - 10:45 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I don't think at any point they promised that the Maker's return was imminent. The Chant supposedly needs to be sung from the four corners of the world, that is supposed to be what proves to the Maker that mankind has finally turned back to him.

Of course they didn't promise imminent return. That would be foolish, wouldn't it? Especially if they know that it's a lie.

They don't believe it is a lie. It is all conjecture. They believe that once the "word of the Maker" is sung from all four corners of the world, the Maker will find Thedas worthy again of his attention. Some people find solace in that way of thinking.

Personally I don't even think the Chantry truly believes it. I just think they want political clout everywhere, so they use that line as an excuse to justify it.

[Jugo616]

I think your problem is much bigger then missing a piece of information.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chantry is not a single entity. It can't have an opinion like a single person. So saying "The Chantry" believes in the Maker's return or doesn't believe in the Maker's return isn't really accurate.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Chantry is not a single entity. It can't have an opinion like a single person. So saying "The Chantry" believes in the Maker's return or doesn't believe in the Maker's return isn't really accurate.

assuming this is directed at me -- or at a multitude of people with me amongst them -- when I say the Chantry doesn't believe in it and only uses it to justify the spreading of political influence, I mean the head honchos in the Chantry.

That is to say, the Divines, maybe some of her advisors, the Knight-Vigilants, etc.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well a lot of the Grand Clerics and Knight Commanders we've seen seem to genuinely believe in the Maker so I don't see why the Divines and Knight Vigilants wouldn't.

[AlexXIV]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well a lot of the Grand Clerics and Knight Commanders we've seen seem to genuinely believe in the Maker so I don't see why the Divines and Knight Vigilants wouldn't.

If you want to believe them then you are free to. But it is only your opinion, or trust if you want so. I for one am ever suspicious of any religion. Because claim of divinity without proof is just that, a claim. And I never saw anything holy or divine about the Chantry, in the contrary. I saw scheming, meddling, self-righteousness, arrogance, ignorance, lies and cowardice. And what I also saw was blasphemy. Maybe not all people see that and I am not going to explain. But from someone claiming some sort of divine right I expect more than from a profane worldly organisation like for example a political party. It's not about the Chantry doing good things, or that some of their teaching are an asset to society. It is about them claiming to be or have something that they are not and have not.

[whykikyouwhy]

AlexXIV wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well a lot of the Grand Clerics and Knight Commanders we've seen seem to genuinely believe in the Maker so I don't see why the Divines and Knight Vigilants wouldn't.

If you want to believe them then you are free to. But it is only your opinion, or trust if you want so. I for one am ever suspicious of any religion. Because claim of divinity without proof is just that, a claim. And I never saw anything holy or divine about the Chantry, in the contrary. I saw scheming, meddling, self-righteousness, arrogance, ignorance, lies and cowardice. And what I also saw was blasphemy. Maybe not all people see that and I am not going to explain. But from someone claiming some sort of divine right I expect more than from a profane worldly organisation like for example a political party. It's not about the Chantry doing good things, or that some of their teaching are an asset to society. It is about them claiming to be or have something that they are not and have not.

But couldn't you say that the scheming, meddling, etc is the work of specific individuals, and not indicative of the core tenets upon which the Chantry was founded? Granted, those individuals have great influence and power (and power corrupts...), so the wrongs that they commit will be widespread, but I don't know that the early Chantry  (as an organization) was guilty of such wrongs.

"Divine right" is a tricky thing - it speaks of politics, it speaks of force (Manifest Destiny seems to ring loudly here). But the tamer version of this - believing that you have been called for some divinely-inspired or motivated purpose - is probably what a lot of Chantry members and Andrastians (?) feel is true for their lives and how they act.

I think the Chantry is like any large organization - it has good and bad elements amongst its members, and sometimes the balance unfortunately shifts so that the bad is in greater force.

[AlexXIV]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well a lot of the Grand Clerics and Knight Commanders we've seen seem to genuinely believe in the Maker so I don't see why the Divines and Knight Vigilants wouldn't.

If you want to believe them then you are free to. But it is only your opinion, or trust if you want so. I for one am ever suspicious of any religion. Because claim of divinity without proof is just that, a claim. And I never saw anything holy or divine about the Chantry, in the contrary. I saw scheming, meddling, self-righteousness, arrogance, ignorance, lies and cowardice. And what I also saw was blasphemy. Maybe not all people see that and I am not going to explain. But from someone claiming some sort of divine right I expect more than from a profane worldly organisation like for example a political party. It's not about the Chantry doing good things, or that some of their teaching are an asset to society. It is about them claiming to be or have something that they are not and have not.

But couldn't you say that the scheming, meddling, etc is the work of specific individuals, and not indicative of the core tenets upon which the Chantry was founded? Granted, those individuals have great influence and power (and power corrupts...), so the wrongs that they commit will be widespread, but I don't know that the early Chantry  (as an organization) was guilty of such wrongs.

"Divine right" is a tricky thing - it speaks of politics, it speaks of force (Manifest Destiny seems to ring loudly here). But the tamer version of this - believing that you have been called for some divinely-inspired or motivated purpose - is probably what a lot of Chantry members and Andrastians (?) feel is true for their lives and how they act.

I think the Chantry is like any large organization - it has good and bad elements amongst its members, and sometimes the balance unfortunately shifts so that the bad is in greater force.

Believing in something is one thing. Treating your believe as ultimate truth and forcing it on other people is another.

And since the Chantry is doing this, I want to see their evidence. They could just go around and say there is no proof, since there is no Maker anywhere to be seen or heard of felt. But that's not what they do.

The Maker created humans, gave them free will because he wanted them this way. Then they execute free will and because he doesn't like their decisions he abandons them. He is acting like a spoiled brat who doesn't know what he is doing. And then centuries pass while he is pouting somewhere while his children are faced with things like Blights who almost wipe them all out.
 
If parents irl treat their children like this they would go to jail. So to make this clear, there is no way the Maker returns and is everything the Chantry claims. It wouldn't make sense. There is no way to explain this kind of behaviour for a being that is supposedly superiour to mere mortals. Honestly, even if the Maker exists and the Chantry is right about only the most things they preach then still humanity deserves better. A better god or maybe no gods at all.

What the Chantry is doing is deliberately lying to people to uphold order. And even if some really want to believe in what they preach, any of them with half a brain must realize all the things that make no sense.

Ok ... I am not religious irl but sometimes my christian education breaks through. Jesus said, when he was asked how people will recognize him, should he return. He said something like a good tree will not bear bad fruit. So you can see at the fruit what the tree is. That said, I expect things like a Sister/Mother Petrice not to happen in a religion I am supposed to respect. That she made it there and raised in the ranks like this is a very strong indication of everything that's wrong in the Chantry. If there can be one bad apple there can be many. If there can be a Mother Petrice, there can be a Grand Cleric Petrice, even a Divine Petrice. It's easy like this. Either it is a divine organisation or a worldly organisation. Wordly organisation can have worldly weaknesses, divine organisations cannot.

Again, I can not seem to make this point clear. I don't hold it against them that they are failable. I hold it against them that they act as if they not. They make their laws but they are not laws by men, they are supposedly by the Maker. Which is a lie.

Even in their origin there is nothing of a proof for anything. Andraste alone spoke to the Maker, and nobody else. Every word of her about the Maker was not heard by a second person. Only by her alone. The whole f*ing story origins from one person who claims to have contact with someone who nobody else can see or hear, in centuries before her and after. I can't possibly imagine why people fall for that so easily and act as if it is the truth regardless of thousand arguments you could bring against it. Because they won the war against the Tevinters? Since when does winning wars equal claim to the ultimate truth?

I know I am a sceptic, but for the world's sake, how can some people NOT be questioning anything just because of the laws of an organisation that claims absoluteness based on next to nothing but words?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 25 novembre 2011 - 11:12 .

[Lynata]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
But couldn't you say that the scheming, meddling, etc is the work of specific individuals, and not indicative of the core tenets upon which the Chantry was founded?

Or that the scheming and meddling is done because those doing this are convinced that this would further the cause of their faith, genuinely believing in the ends justifying the means. See: Sister Petrice. Zeal can be a motivator just as powerful as greed or pride...

Concerning any supposed knowledge of the Divine or the Knight-Vigilant about "Chantry lies" regarding something so critical as the entire basis for their faith ... this really just seems like grasping at straws to find some sort of malevolence where, at best, there is only naivety and blind adherence to religious dogma.
The Divine and the Knight-Vigilant aren't recruited out of some Illuminati-like circle of conspirators fooling everyone else, they are picked and elected from the same stock of people that form the basis of the entire faith. So unless there is some crazy tradition about trolling all successors with a big "the chant is a lie" kind of revelation as soon as they become boss (which could backfire badly), any lies - if there ever was an intentional misdirection! - would have long since become the honest belief of people who quite simply have no reason to doubt what they grew up with.

http://dragonage.wik...vine_Justinia_V

Modifié par Lynata, 25 novembre 2011 - 11:22 .

[whykikyouwhy]

AlexXIV wrote...
Believing in something is one thing. Treating your believe as ultimate truth and forcing it on other people is another.

And since the Chantry is doing this, I want to see their evidence. They could just go around and say there is no proof, since there is no Maker anywhere to be seen or heard of felt. But that's not what they do.

The Maker created humans, gave them free will because he wanted them this way. Then they execute free will and because he doesn't like their decisions he abandons them. He is acting like a spoiled brat who doesn't know what he is doing. And then centuries pass while he is pouting somewhere while his children are faced with things like Blights who almost wipe them all out.
 
If parents irl treat their children like this they would go to jail. So to make this clear, there is no way the Maker returns and is everything the Chantry claims. It wouldn't make sense. There is no way to explain this kind of behaviour for a being that is supposedly superiour to mere mortals. Honestly, even if the Maker exists and the Chantry is right about only the most things they preach then still humanity deserves better. A better god or maybe no gods at all.

What the Chantry is doing is deliberately lying to people to uphold order. And even if some really want to believe in what they preach, any of them with half a brain must realize all the things that make no sense.

Ok ... I am not religious irl but sometimes my christian education breaks through. Jesus said, when he was asked how people will recognize him, should he return. He said something like a good tree will not bear bad fruit. So you can see at the fruit what the tree is. That said, I expect things like a Sister/Mother Petrice not to happen in a religion I am supposed to respect. That she made it there and raised in the ranks like this is a very strong indication of everything that's wrong in the Chantry. If there can be one bad apple there can be many. If there can be a Mother Petrice, there can be a Grand Cleric Petrice, even a Divine Petrice. It's easy like this. Either it is a divine organisation or a worldly organisation. Wordly organisation can have worldly weaknesses, divine organisations cannot.

Again, I can not seem to make this point clear. I don't hold it against them that they are failable. I hold it against them that they act as if they not. They make their laws but they are not laws by men, they are supposedly by the Maker. Which is a lie.

Even in their origin there is nothing of a proof for anything. Andraste alone spoke to the Maker, and nobody else. Every word of her about the Maker was not heard by a second person. Only by her alone. The whole f*ing story origins from one person who claims to have contact with someone who nobody else can see or hear, in centuries before her and after. I can't possibly imagine why people fall for that so easily and act as if it is the truth regardless of thousand arguments you could bring against it. Because they won the war against the Tevinters? Since when does winning wars equal claim to the ultimate truth?

I know I am a sceptic, but for the world's sake, is how can some people NOT be questioning anything just because of the laws of an organisation that claims absoluteness based on next to nothing but words?

You make a lot of valid points. What I had wanted to point out was that the core beliefs upon which an organized religion is structured may sometimes still retain their purity and altruism, and as such, people who are Chantry members may be part of the organization, but are attempting to uphold the core good - and not the skewed power-hungry-based manipulations of those tenets.

And arguably, yes, those people consciously remain part of an organization that may be run by some bad elements, but perhaps they are hoping to bring about positive change.

As far as the Maker acting like a brat - yes, there is a certain petulent manner attributed to him. But it resonates as very Old Testament to me - the vengeful god, the god who was a more active role in the lives of his creations and thus, wanted their sole worship (and asked for this directly). The Maker story also reminds me of Greek and Roman mythology, in which the deities possess very human characteristics, and are quite fallible.

Regarding Andraste being the sole recipient of chat time with the Maker - there are plenty of similar stories in numerous RL religions around the world. Is there truth to them? Who is to say. In the DA-verse, a divine being deciding to appear before one person and one person only would fit - it seems feasible.

Sure, people should question it. But some folks need and want and have reason to believe. If they have found some truth (absolute truth perhaps being relative), that can be a wonderful thing. Especially if that truth guides them toward being caring and compassionate human beings (I can't really fault that, you know?). And no, it shouldn't be foisted upon someone else. But such is the way, it seems, with organized religions and various groups in general. They require membership - there's a trick of numbers.

I think though, that with the mage-templar schism/war at hand, the role of the Chantry will be changing. Maybe more people in Thedas will question what the Chantry has been preaching for years. Maybe truths will be revealed on a grand scale.

[AlexXIV]

Tbh I always found it a weakness that people need a religion to be compassionate and caring. Religion comes with promise of reward ... or punishment ... modern educations says that it is a bad way to educate children this way. If you reward children for being nice and punish them for being bad they will try to be nice and not bad. But for the wrong reasons. They will not learn what compassion and careing means, they learn what they have to do to get a reward or no punishment. That's different. That's one big fail in religions in general imo.

That's why I am not religious but still consider myself a christian. Just that my god, if he exists at all, does not punish or reward. There can only be one reason for punishment or reward, and that's education. And if you think that the best education is achieved without punishment or reward it sort of makes them useless, doesn't it?

It doesn't help much that it is a medivial setting, because it should not make a difference for a god. If it is a real god, and not some imposter that is.

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't think all people need religion to be compassionate. But I do see where religion can, and has, reminded people to see things in a broader view (perhaps ironically) - to look beyond themselves. You would think that compassion would simply be a human trait/behavior, but selfishness can get in the way. And thus, some people need a faith to guide them.

Yeah, there's a lot of reward and punishment talk, and organized religions have long been used to keep order (that whole pesky blending of church and state).

Could be that the whole prophesized return of magic will show that a real god for the DA-verse does exist. Or there's just going to be a huge battle in the heavens and ether to decide who gets to hold bragging rights.

[AlexXIV]

Yeah I am really curious about this return as well. Curious who or what will return and what it/she/he is like. And what other revalations will be surfaced. And if and how it will change the world forever.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 novembre 2011 - 12:04 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Lynata wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...
But couldn't you say that the scheming, meddling, etc is the work of specific individuals, and not indicative of the core tenets upon which the Chantry was founded?

Or that the scheming and meddling is done because those doing this are convinced that this would further the cause of their faith, genuinely believing in the ends justifying the means. See: Sister Petrice. Zeal can be a motivator just as powerful as greed or pride...

Concerning any supposed knowledge of the Divine or the Knight-Vigilant about "Chantry lies" regarding something so critical as the entire basis for their faith ... this really just seems like grasping at straws to find some sort of malevolence where, at best, there is only naivety and blind adherence to religious dogma.
The Divine and the Knight-Vigilant aren't recruited out of some Illuminati-like circle of conspirators fooling everyone else, they are picked and elected from the same stock of people that form the basis of the entire faith. So unless there is some crazy tradition about trolling all successors with a big "the chant is a lie" kind of revelation as soon as they become boss (which could backfire badly), any lies - if there ever was an intentional misdirection! - would have long since become the honest belief of people who quite simply have no reason to doubt what they grew up with.

http://dragonage.wik...vine_Justinia_V

This. This was exactly my point. I wasn't wan't talking about any divine right or the merits of relgion in general and I don't know how the discussion ended up on the topic of religion and morality but all I was saying was that the Chantry leadership always has to be picked from the rest of the high ranking members. We know Meredith and Elthina are earnestly devout, Greagor seems to be as well. This level of the Chantry heirarchy is what the Divine's and Knight Vigilants would be chosen from, so if they can genuinely believe, why not the Divine? Even if you think the Chantry leadership is power hunry, there wouldn't necessarily have to be a conspiracy at the top anway. Whether I as a player believe all that is irrelevant, all I was talking about is whether they believe it.

[Lynata]

AlexXIV wrote...
Tbh I always found it a weakness that people need a religion to be compassionate and caring. Religion comes with promise of reward ... or punishment ... modern educations says that it is a bad way to educate children this way.

I guess that's just how mankind works, at least for the time being. The laws that we have are enforced in the same way, by threat of punishment, which may be seen both as a deterrent as well as justice in the form of vengeance by those afflicted or offended by the crime.

People don't need religion to be compassionate and caring, but it is one of the most successful forms of unity, and unity provides strength, confirming the actions of its members - because deep down, we all strive for acceptance and recognition. Mankind is a "herd animal", and big groups make it easier and "more fun" to pursue a given goal. In other words: We all strive to be part of something greater than ourselves.

The same thing can be achieved by dedicated communities like the hippie movement, or various NGOs such as the Red Cross and Greenpeace, or even the United Nations. Religion just has the advantages of both being much older as well as almost always sporting some level of indoctrination for recruitment and retainment - the same can be said of certain non-religious movements, but these come with the very same advantages and disadvantages of organized religion (including the potential for abuse - as I said in another thread, "power corrupts"), so I'm sure you see the connection.

I have never been an adherent of any religion, but I have a UN flag in my room (a bit silly, but it serves as a symbol of my hope for a unified world) and donate a few bucks of my salary every month, sometimes larger sums (Japan earthquake). *shrugs* I chalk it down to having been raised by a socialist family, though as can be expected with parents and children we do not agree on everything in terms of politics. In the end, adopting morale and compassion depend on the environment we live in. This can be a religion, it can be your family, or any other kind of unit. Thouth at times, even a single experience one has witnessed may change a man.

Modifié par Lynata, 26 novembre 2011 - 01:33 .

[AlexXIV]

Meredith devout? She is that paranoid that she doesn't even trust fellow templars, not to mention some absent god. If she truely believed things would never have gotten out of hand like they did. Sometimes it is the things we believe in that keep away the madness. And considering this, Meredith probably didn't believe in many things other than in herself, if even that.

And Elthina ... no idea what this woman was all about.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:57 .