132 réponses à ce sujet

[Firky]

I was thinking Awakened as in - to blood magic. Which would go with what you are saying about being enlightened. But I thought it said somewhere in Legacy that he was forced down a blood magic path.

I dunno. There's also sexual awakening. We have heard so little about the mum and dad Hawke relationship, I was just wondering about its backstory, too, I guess. Like, they ran off to get married after Malcolm did his blood magic thing. How did Leandra feel about that? That stuff.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say here.

I think my point was that the Magisters retained their selfhood upon turning into Darkspawn, and are thus the first of the Awakened Darkspawn.

And that, if one were to subscribe to the theory that the Darkspawn rendering of the invasion was a sort of weird reincarnation, it would help explain why the Architect was born as he was in his mind.

If the Architect was a Magister -- which seems highly likely -- then when he became a Darkspawn he was reborn as something else.

My point was just that they have an answer. Right or wrong. The Dwarves have none. Hence there's less to contradict about their story.

So.... because the Dwarves are honest in that they have absolutely no idea what the origins of the Darkspawn were, the Chantry automatically gets more points for their story which has only a grain of truth to it?

Doesn't seem fair. Or right for that matter.

There is nothing in the Chant of Light or the story about magisters being the first darkspawn that says that the first darkspawn were hurlocks. I never believed otherwise when the dwarves said that genlocks were seen first or mostly seen first. The Chant says that the blighted magisters and darkspawn were drawn to the Old Gods. If the regular darkspawn are able to make a broodmother by instict, I can't see any reason the intelligent ones wouldn't have the same instict. Although if it's a complicated procedure, perhaps the origonal broodmothers were specifically engineered by the magisters to create an army. All they would really need would be to spread the taint.

Well, technically the Magisters -- assuming they were all human when they invaded -- became Awakened Hurlock Emissaries.

And I had a brief lapse in memory where I thought that when a Darkspawn rapes a woman, that woman becomes a broodmother of the Darkspawn that raped her (meaning for a brief moment I thought a Genlock raping a woman would make a broodmother that churns out Genlocks). But it doesn't work like that. My mistake.

I should probably head to bed because of that lapse in memory, since only Dwarven women make Genlocks, human women make Hurlocks, and so on and so forth.

And it's in the nature of the mindless Darkspawn to make broodmothers. It's just something they do. Just like it's in a primate's nature to fling his poop. Is it in our nature to fling our poop?

I have to wonder though if an Awakened Darkspawn like the Architect or Corypheus is even able to make broodmothers. Most likely they are, though it would be interesting if they weren't.

That one reused sound file is not enough to make me think there is any connection when everything else about that level and the lore we learn implies the opposite. Besides, if the sound is used for Ducan sensing regular darkspawn and the reaver ritual, are they related too?

Actually it's used for the Warden Joining ritual. I don't think it's used for Duncan sensing Darkspawn, but even if it is I'm pretty sure that the sound is whispering of Dragons.

And yes, it is related. The Reavers happen to be connected to the Dragon they drank the blood from. It's partially why the Dragons don't attack them.

I don't think that the magisters can really be classified as hurlocks like the rest of the darkspawn. They aren't really the same type of being.

I believe Duncan hears the same whispering right before Calian was killed and in the intro when he is ambushed by two hurlocks.

[AlexXIV]

Lynata wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
If you are a true believer you need not fear anything, not even death.

A true believer can always fear - fear that he or she is not doing the right thing, or not enough. Which is exactly what Meredith did. In fact, fear is a very common theme in organized religion. What do you think the concept of "hell" was for?

In case you missed it, she wasn't afraid of death, she was afraid she might've been wrong about everything - as part of her believed that the Maker would not allow her to be defeated otherwise, or worse, even have lent his strength to Hawke.

"Why is this taking so long? Can ones so evil truly be so powerful? Maker, guide your servant. Please, tell me what I must do! What if... I'm not doing the right thing? What if this is all madness?... No! I must remain vigilant!"

If you are a true believer you neither fear that you do the wrong thing, nor do you fear you do too much or too little. Sceptics do that. If Meredith trusted in the help of the Maker, what was the lyrium idol for? What she said doesn't matter because she was already beyond reason. She is a crazy woman, in case you missed it.

[whykikyouwhy]

Firky wrote...

I was thinking Awakened as in - to blood magic. Which would go with what you are saying about being enlightened. But I thought it said somewhere in Legacy that he was forced down a blood magic path.

I dunno. There's also sexual awakening. We have heard so little about the mum and dad Hawke relationship, I was just wondering about its backstory, too, I guess. Like, they ran off to get married after Malcolm did his blood magic thing. How did Leandra feel about that? That stuff.

How did Leandra feel about the sexual awakening, or the blood magic?

(I'll just address the latter - I'm sure things were fine with the first.)

It's not addressed directly. Hawke and whatever sibling is taken through Legacy will be shocked by the use of blood magic, but I think the general understanding is that it was a desperate times = desperate measures sort of deal. If you take Bethany with you, she talks about Malcom teaching her to use her magic (as he is quoted) to serve "that which is best" in her.

If you play Legacy post Act 2 (or post All That Remains), you'll get a cutscene where Leandra does mention that Malcolm probably accepted the burden (of blood magic, and/or of the seals) to shield the family so that they might have their own lives. The impression I got was that she understood why he did what he did - because it was so that the family could be free, in some capacity.

[GavrielKay]

AlexXIV wrote...
If you are a true believer you neither fear that you do the wrong thing, nor do you fear you do too much or too little. Sceptics do that. If Meredith trusted in the help of the Maker, what was the lyrium idol for? What she said doesn't matter because she was already beyond reason. She is a crazy woman, in case you missed it.

I think that depends on what sort of deity you believe in.  Given the Maker is cannonically believed to have abandoned his followers until such time as they prove to him that they are loyal, Meredith might well question whether she is in fact "proving" her loyalty. 

I happen to agree she's nutters, but that doesn't mean she can't also be a believer. 

[GavrielKay]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
It's not addressed directly. Hawke and whatever sibling is taken through Legacy will be shocked by the use of blood magic, but I think the general understanding is that it was a desperate times = desperate measures sort of deal. If you take Bethany with you, she talks about Malcom teaching her to use her magic (as he is quoted) to serve "that which is best" in her.

Is there any indication that Malcomn had to make a deal with a demon in order to learn the blood magic he needed to satisfy the Wardens?  I think it's believable that he'd do something he wouldn't normally engage in for the safety of his family, but making a deal with a demon seems a bit far fetched.  To my mind, he should consider that putting his family at even greater risk as he'd have the direct attention of some demon or other for the rest of his life.

I'm of the camp that the game lore seems to indicate blood magic can be learned by reading books or being especially determined.  It is just easier to get it from a demon.

Also, was anyone else annoyed that your Hawke's reactions were dictated by the game?  Your Hawke could be a blood mage also, for example, and hardly surprised that another apostate would use whatever means necessary to stay safe.

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't recall anything hinting at deals with demons. At the point where Malcolm assisted the wardens, he had already been in the Circle, right? I would imagine that he picked up at least the basics for blood magic there.

[Gervaise]

Surely the Wardens taught Malcolm what he needed to know to strengthen the seals, either verbally or a set of instructions left by whoever originally devised the prison, in other words a sort of ritual that was confirmed by his blood. It was blood magic but of a different kind to that in normal use, at least that is how I understand it.

[GavrielKay]

Gervaise wrote...

Surely the Wardens taught Malcolm what he needed to know to strengthen the seals, either verbally or a set of instructions left by whoever originally devised the prison, in other words a sort of ritual that was confirmed by his blood. It was blood magic but of a different kind to that in normal use, at least that is how I understand it.

That could be true.  However, it seems too easy to call some things a "different kind" of blood magic when the use of it is approved.  Like locking up magisters or using phylacteries to hunt mages.  The Joining ritual relies quite heavily on blood as well.

Anyway, I think it must be possible to learn blood magic without demons and other than the nasty implications of mind control, perhaps blood magic isn't really so bad after all.

[esper]

Gervaise wrote...

Surely the Wardens taught Malcolm what he needed to know to strengthen the seals, either verbally or a set of instructions left by whoever originally devised the prison, in other words a sort of ritual that was confirmed by his blood. It was blood magic but of a different kind to that in normal use, at least that is how I understand it.

That were demons involved because he sealed them up. I do think the grey warden was the one who did the theaching, but it was definitly demon blood magic because Them says in the quest that he does not like the wardens use of demons and seals/bind them. In fact from the da:o dlc and legacy I have sort of gotten the impression that the Grey Wardens uses the dangerous part of blood magic and not just the cut your-self for extra power. Anerius was definitly in the demon summoning busniness as well and Janeka wanted to do some binding thing on Corypheus and binding techniques usually comes from controlling demons.

[The_Real_Lee]

I think that the Black City was always black, but people called it the Golden City because it became a symbol of power. It could contain anything, knowledge, secrets to stronger magic, God. Unfortunately it contained the taint.

Hundreds of years after the taint is unleashed, people would forget that it was always black, and they would assume that since it used to be called the Golden City that it must have been golden. This is still all before the Chantry came to exist.

The reason is was called the Golden city was because they believed that it contained power, and when the truth was that it held no power, they refered to is as it appeared, black. That's why Dumat wanted the Golden City, the Old God also believed that it must have held some kind of wealth of knowledge.

[FaeQueenCory]

I've never bought the whole "it was always black" argument....
Namely because it makes the Magisters who busted in to it seemingly mentally retarded.
For instance:
Dumat: "Hey.... Magisters... Remember how I taught you Blood Magic? Pretty Awesome right?"
Magisters: "Oh yeah! It's great, Dumat<3!"
D: "Cool. Now, see that black city over there? It's really TOTALLY golden... and filled with so much magic that you all would be like GODS!"
M: "Oh! OK! Let's go get some godmagic!"

.... It HAD to have been golden originally... because no one, barring the mentally decrepit, would look at a blackened city and believe that it was gold.
And WHY would it be gold before, and then suddenly become black when opened? Because the taint leaked out?? Why isn't all of the Fade blackened then?

Because it WAS originally golden. And having physical beings enter the metaphysical city "unhinged the symmetry". Think of it as a house of cards and someone bumps it.
Also, remember, golden doesn't necessarily means that they city was gold-colored. It could easily describe something that is "radiant"-filled with light. Which, when thought of that way, makes the whole "blackening" concept simple. Think of it as extinguishing a light.

As to just exactly was the reasoning for WHY Dumat and the others coaxed the Magisters into going into the golden city physically.... I'm betting it was because they took a bet on the whole "wrath of the Maker" as a means to be physically removed from their prisons... as well as getting a whole world 100% subject to their will... then humans made Wardens...

Modifié par FaeQueenCory, 30 novembre 2011 - 12:11 .

[AlexXIV]

Well golden may refer not to the actual color but rather that it was golden in a metaphorical sense. After all if we speak about a golden age, we don't speak about an age in which everything was made of gold either. I actually think it would be difficult for something to be made of gold in the Fade.

[FaeQueenCory]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well golden may refer not to the actual color but rather that it was golden in a metaphorical sense. After all if we speak about a golden age, we don't speak about an age in which everything was made of gold either. I actually think it would be difficult for something to be made of gold in the Fade.

LMAO!! I had JUST edited my statement to include that while you posted!!!

[whykikyouwhy]

FaeQueenCory wrote...

I've never bought the whole "it was always black" argument....
Namely because it makes the Magisters who busted in to it seemingly mentally retarded.
For instance:
Dumat: "Hey.... Magisters... Remember how I taught you Blood Magic? Pretty Awesome right?"
Magisters: "Oh yeah! It's great, Dumat<3!"
D: "Cool. Now, see that black city over there? It's really TOTALLY golden... and filled with so much magic that you all would be like GODS!"
M: "Oh! OK! Let's go get some godmagic!"

.... It HAD to have been golden originally... because no one, barring the mentally decrepit, would look at a blackened city and believe that it was gold.
And WHY would it be gold before, and then suddenly become black when opened? Because the taint leaked out?? Why isn't all of the Fade blackened then?

Because it WAS originally golden. And having physical beings enter the metaphysical city "unhinged the symmetry". Think of it as a house of cards and someone bumps it.

As to just exactly was the reasoning for WHY Dumat and the others coaxed the Magisters into going into the golden city physically.... I'm betting it was because they took a bet on the whole "wrath of the Maker" as a means to be physically removed from their prisons... as well as getting a whole world 100% subject to their will... then humans made Wardens...

Perhaps we should steer clear of the "mentally retarded" tags. "Potentially foolish" on the part of the magisters, or "incredibly naive" might be better ways to phrase it.

But, with regard to the City...two words - rotten twinkies. Golden on the outside, filled with shadow and woe on the inside. If the City is a proverbial Pandora's Box, it could be that its true nature wasn't any sort of shared knowledge. And if the City actually hearkens to the days of creation, and all the negative was brushed under the carpert and behind golden doors, but the truth of that "box's" purpose was lost, legend and lore would make something that appears golden on the outside into something hitning of treasure - something worth breaking into. Because clearly, that sheen must mean something, right? It holds promise.

Just a  theory, mind you.

[FaeQueenCory]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Perhaps we should steer clear of the "mentally retarded" tags. "Potentially foolish" on the part of the magisters, or "incredibly naive" might be better ways to phrase it.

But, with regard to the City...two words - rotten twinkies. Golden on the outside, filled with shadow and woe on the inside. If the City is a proverbial Pandora's Box, it could be that its true nature wasn't any sort of shared knowledge. And if the City actually hearkens to the days of creation, and all the negative was brushed under the carpert and behind golden doors, but the truth of that "box's" purpose was lost, legend and lore would make something that appears golden on the outside into something hitning of treasure - something worth breaking into. Because clearly, that sheen must mean something, right? It holds promise.

Just a  theory, mind you.

Perhaps. To both your statements.
But It HAD to have been golden on the outside at the very least.... But even so, I find the concept of "breaking the symmetry" of the golden city by having a physical body enter the metaphysical Fade to be more... agreeable to me.

(I used "mentally retarded" as its clinical definition "curtailed mental capacity", retard is a a french verb meaning to curtail... sadly it has been stigmatized... like queer.... queer means strange.... I don't want to start anything and I appologize for using a term that has been stigmatized should anyone be offended at it.... But no one should bring in comparrisons to the Nword or any other words that were originally created to be offensive... because that's just silly.)

[whykikyouwhy]

Oh, I do think it had a golden cakey outer shell. But once that shell was broken, the vile stuff got out and tainted the outside. And the magisters weren't aware of the true nature behind the goldenness - maybe the "gold" was magic (magical seals), maybe the container of sorts.

(and no worries - it's a hot button phrase and I figured that for the sake of those who may interpret it negatively, I'd suggest something else. )

[AlexXIV]

The times we get to visit the Fade in the games, the structures are always a reflection of the real world. Or is it the other way round? Anyway, in the Black Marches if we go to the Fade we find the old village of the Baroness, the way it looked centuries before.

So it is quite possible that the Golden City was a reflection of a city that has turned black long ago, but in the Fade it was still golden. When the Tevinters entered however it changed for some reason to an actual reflection of how the city actually looks now.

Which could mean that the real 'formerly golden' city actually exists somewhere in or below Thedas. And that it has been destroyed in the real world long before the Tevinters arrived in the Fade version. Just that somehow the Tevinters unwittingly created a connection between the Fade city and the real world city, thus 'updated' the vision to the now corrupted city.

I would also think that this city lies deep down below the earth because that's where the darkspawn come from. And when the Tevinters tried to leave the Fade black city again they ended up in the real world black city, thus were corrupted, etc.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 novembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[mousestalker]

The Black City as a chocolate creme filled eclair. That works. It even explains why the Chant of Light is so cloying.

Modifié par mousestalker, 30 novembre 2011 - 01:58 .

[StarcloudSWG]

The Golden City wasn't a City.

It was a prison. And Dumat and the other Old Gods/Dragons/Archdemons wanted out. That's why they called to the Magisters in their dreams.

When the Magisters entered the City, the wards collapsed. The "golden light" died. And then it appeared dead and black.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 30 novembre 2011 - 02:01 .

[mousestalker]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

The Golden City wasn't a City.

It was a prison. And Dumat and the other Old Gods/Dragons/Archdemons wanted out. That's why they called to the Magisters in their dreams.

Maybe it was a reality tv show? "Demi God Survivor" or "Big Maker"

[whykikyouwhy]

mousestalker wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

The Golden City wasn't a City.

It was a prison. And Dumat and the other Old Gods/Dragons/Archdemons wanted out. That's why they called to the Magisters in their dreams.

Maybe it was a reality tv show? "Demi God Survivor" or "Big Maker"

Wouldn't it be more like "Prison Break" then? Maybe it's "Cell Block Lyrium" or "Fade Break."

[TEWR]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

The Golden City wasn't a City.

It was a prison. And Dumat and the other Old Gods/Dragons/Archdemons wanted out. That's why they called to the Magisters in their dreams.

I wonder... for a while I've been thinking something similar. What if the Old Gods' Fade forms were kept imprisoned in the Golden City? They'd still be able to communicate with the Magisters -- at least that's what I'm assuming -- and they wanted to be freed.

Perhaps the invasion released their Fade forms and they flew through the Magisters, tainting them? or something.

EDIT: What if the Golden City really was black all the time, but the Old Gods' Fade forms used some sort of magic to give it a golden shine?

I dunno. Just a theory of mine that I can't really flesh out into words.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 novembre 2011 - 02:16 .

[TEWR]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

The Golden City wasn't a City.

It was a prison. And Dumat and the other Old Gods/Dragons/Archdemons wanted out. That's why they called to the Magisters in their dreams.

Maybe it was a reality tv show? "Demi God Survivor" or "Big Maker"

Wouldn't it be more like "Prison Break" then? Maybe it's "Cell Block Lyrium" or "Fade Break."

Prison Break was a great show.

[FaeQueenCory]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Oh, I do think it had a golden cakey outer shell. But once that shell was broken, the vile stuff got out and tainted the outside. And the magisters weren't aware of the true nature behind the goldenness - maybe the "gold" was magic (magical seals), maybe the container of sorts.

(and no worries - it's a hot button phrase and I figured that for the sake of those who may interpret it negatively, I'd suggest something else. )

The main reason why I don't like that theory is because, if it were so, why isn't the rest of the Fade blackend?
If it was a a golden box with taint inside, and once opened the taint spills out... shouldn't it continue to taint the Fade then? If the Taint spreads in the physical world just by the presence of the darkspawn, then shouldn't the Fade be ever blackening due to it containing the source of the Taint?
That's why I like the basic "fallen house of cards" as opposed to the "rotten twinkie" model.