142 réponses à ce sujet

[Swampthing500]

Place me into the "do not cure the genophage" camp.

I take a "big picture" attitude.

Yes, the Krogan are sentient, yes the current generation of Krogan did nothing to earn the genophage, but their normal birth-rate means they will uiltimately over-populate any planet they settle on, exhaust it's resources and push into territory held by other races.

Since the Krogan have shown that they have no inclination to control their birth-rate themselves, the security of the rest of the galaxy means the virus is necessary.

[PauseforEffect]

That's a tricky situation, one I think needs more observation before deciding. Either we'll have much needed shock troops, or it will undermine Wrex's carefully made alliances to unite the krogan species. Wrex's work was the first we've seen of the krogan society turning to a more enlightened and cooperative movement. Curing the genophage may retard that progress like we saw with Weyrloc's desire to return to the horde. And I'm not too certain Wrex will accept the cure even then. He had a chance to when Maelon went to him, but I'm guessing that it was more than just unnecessary casualties that Wrex was unwilling to undergo. Being a leader, one has to look far enough ahead to decide whether the price is worth the result, and with his centuries of experience as a soldier, I think it best to respect Wrex's decision and wait with it ready just in case.

[AlphaDormante]

Swampthing500 wrote...

Place me into the "do not cure the genophage" camp.

I take a "big picture" attitude.

Yes, the Krogan are sentient, yes the current generation of Krogan did nothing to earn the genophage, but their normal birth-rate means they will uiltimately over-populate any planet they settle on, exhaust it's resources and push into territory held by other races.

Since the Krogan have shown that they have no inclination to control their birth-rate themselves, the security of the rest of the galaxy means the virus is necessary.

Agreed.

Imagining for a moment that the Reaper threat doesn't even exist, what's the first thing krogan would do if the genophage was cured? Breed like giant reptilian rabbits. Knowing general krogan attitude? There is no possible way that they would decide to moderately pace themselves and steadily build up their population over the years. Coupled with the fact that many of the already existing krogan still have an intense grudge against turians and salarians, I'd go out on a limb and say that the galaxy would be a very messy place very shortly after a genophage cure came into existence.

Argue the decision of implementing the genophage in the first place all you want, but I think it may be a little too late to backtrack up this road.

[111987]

Overpopulation wouldn't be an issue if the Council lifted their ban on activating dormant Mass Relays. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been charted in Mass Effect. They had one bad experience (the Rachni) and even that was because of the Reapers.

[Swampthing500]

111987 wrote...

Overpopulation wouldn't be an issue if the Council lifted their ban on activating dormant Mass Relays. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been charted in Mass Effect. They had one bad experience (the Rachni) and even that was because of the Reapers.

Inhabitable worlds are very, very rare. The Krogan haven't proved themselves the type to hold back on their birth-rate, take time to explore and find worlds of their own. If they see a habitable world belonging to another race, they would rather take those first.

[111987]

Swampthing500 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Overpopulation wouldn't be an issue if the Council lifted their ban on activating dormant Mass Relays. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been charted in Mass Effect. They had one bad experience (the Rachni) and even that was because of the Reapers.

Inhabitable worlds are very, very rare. The Krogan haven't proved themselves the type to hold back on their birth-rate, take time to explore and find worlds of their own. If they see a habitable world belonging to another race, they would rather take those first.

How do you know? They were never in a situation where they had to choose between uninhabited and inhabited worlds.

Anyways though, this is a seperate issue entirely.

[Swampthing500]

111987 wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Overpopulation wouldn't be an issue if the Council lifted their ban on activating dormant Mass Relays. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been charted in Mass Effect. They had one bad experience (the Rachni) and even that was because of the Reapers.

Inhabitable worlds are very, very rare. The Krogan haven't proved themselves the type to hold back on their birth-rate, take time to explore and find worlds of their own. If they see a habitable world belonging to another race, they would rather take those first.

How do you know? They were never in a situation where they had to choose between uninhabited and inhabited worlds.

Anyways though, this is a seperate issue entirely.

Actuall, that situation has come up before during the Krogan Rebellions. This excerpt comes from the ME wiki:


"The Council became concerned as the krogan began to annex territory from other Citadel races. The krogan became more aggressive as other races tried to protect their worlds, until the krogan attempted to settle the asari colony of Lusia. When told by the Council to leave, the krogan refused. Their representative, Overlord Kredak, stormed out of the Council chambers, daring them to take their worlds back. War broke out afterward."

[Dean_the_Young]

The thing about over-population is that it's not just a capacity limit, it's also a matter of relative weight. Even if the entire galaxy was only 50% settled, if 98% of that population is non-genophage Krogan, it's more than crowded for everyone else.

[111987]

Swampthing500 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Overpopulation wouldn't be an issue if the Council lifted their ban on activating dormant Mass Relays. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been charted in Mass Effect. They had one bad experience (the Rachni) and even that was because of the Reapers.

Inhabitable worlds are very, very rare. The Krogan haven't proved themselves the type to hold back on their birth-rate, take time to explore and find worlds of their own. If they see a habitable world belonging to another race, they would rather take those first.

How do you know? They were never in a situation where they had to choose between uninhabited and inhabited worlds.

Anyways though, this is a seperate issue entirely.

Actuall, that situation has come up before during the Krogan Rebellions. This excerpt comes from the ME wiki:


"The Council became concerned as the krogan began to annex territory from other Citadel races. The krogan became more aggressive as other races tried to protect their worlds, until the krogan attempted to settle the asari colony of Lusia. When told by the Council to leave, the krogan refused. Their representative, Overlord Kredak, stormed out of the Council chambers, daring them to take their worlds back. War broke out afterward."

That's different. The Krogan were given a set number of planets to settle, but they overpopulated. Their only options in this situation were live with overpopulation, or take other worlds. Accessing dormant Mass relays wasn't an option because a). it was banned and . the Krogan had just defeated the Rachni; opening up another dormant Relay probably didn't sound like a great deal to them.

To Dean; that is a good point. The Krogan would eventually have to learn to curb their breeding.

[Dave of Canada]

Tigerblood and MilkShakes wrote...

Cure it,if that was unleashed on humans let alone any other speices there would be cry outs and "war crime trails" against the salarians.

Except humans don't breed as fast as the Krogan, nor would be capable of sustaining a viable reproduction rate with a sterility plague.

[Swampthing500]

111987 wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Overpopulation wouldn't be an issue if the Council lifted their ban on activating dormant Mass Relays. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been charted in Mass Effect. They had one bad experience (the Rachni) and even that was because of the Reapers.

Inhabitable worlds are very, very rare. The Krogan haven't proved themselves the type to hold back on their birth-rate, take time to explore and find worlds of their own. If they see a habitable world belonging to another race, they would rather take those first.

How do you know? They were never in a situation where they had to choose between uninhabited and inhabited worlds.

Anyways though, this is a seperate issue entirely.

Actuall, that situation has come up before during the Krogan Rebellions. This excerpt comes from the ME wiki:


"The Council became concerned as the krogan began to annex territory from other Citadel races. The krogan became more aggressive as other races tried to protect their worlds, until the krogan attempted to settle the asari colony of Lusia. When told by the Council to leave, the krogan refused. Their representative, Overlord Kredak, stormed out of the Council chambers, daring them to take their worlds back. War broke out afterward."

That's different. The Krogan were given a set number of planets to settle, but they overpopulated. Their only options in this situation were live with overpopulation, or take other worlds. Accessing dormant Mass relays wasn't an option because a). it was banned and . the Krogan had just defeated the Rachni; opening up another dormant Relay probably didn't sound like a great deal to them.

To Dean; that is a good point. The Krogan would eventually have to learn to curb their breeding.

Every race has a set number of planets to settle, they have so far managed to search out for new ones in their sector of space rather than occupy other worlds. The Krogan were simply unwilling to do this or control their birth-rate. They faced the natural consequences of their actions.

Modifié par Swampthing500, 23 novembre 2011 - 07:46 .

[111987]

Swampthing500 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Swampthing500 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Overpopulation wouldn't be an issue if the Council lifted their ban on activating dormant Mass Relays. Less than 1% of the galaxy has been charted in Mass Effect. They had one bad experience (the Rachni) and even that was because of the Reapers.

Inhabitable worlds are very, very rare. The Krogan haven't proved themselves the type to hold back on their birth-rate, take time to explore and find worlds of their own. If they see a habitable world belonging to another race, they would rather take those first.

How do you know? They were never in a situation where they had to choose between uninhabited and inhabited worlds.

Anyways though, this is a seperate issue entirely.

Actuall, that situation has come up before during the Krogan Rebellions. This excerpt comes from the ME wiki:


"The Council became concerned as the krogan began to annex territory from other Citadel races. The krogan became more aggressive as other races tried to protect their worlds, until the krogan attempted to settle the asari colony of Lusia. When told by the Council to leave, the krogan refused. Their representative, Overlord Kredak, stormed out of the Council chambers, daring them to take their worlds back. War broke out afterward."

That's different. The Krogan were given a set number of planets to settle, but they overpopulated. Their only options in this situation were live with overpopulation, or take other worlds. Accessing dormant Mass relays wasn't an option because a). it was banned and . the Krogan had just defeated the Rachni; opening up another dormant Relay probably didn't sound like a great deal to them.

To Dean; that is a good point. The Krogan would eventually have to learn to curb their breeding.

Every race has a set number of planets to settle, they have so far managed to search out for new ones in their sector of space rather than occupy other worlds. The Krogan were simply unwilling to do this or control their birth-rate. They faced the natural consequences of their actions.

Who says the Krogan were given a comparable amount of planets to the other Council races? We simply do not know if that was true. Even if they did, that wouldn't be sufficient because of the Krogan's naturally high birth rate. They simply need more planets than a race like the Asari or Salarians would.

[Dean_the_Young]

And once they've filled up those worlds?

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And once they've filled up those worlds?

There of course has to be a limit to the amount of planets they have. We don't know how many they were given. The Codex says they were conquering other worlds while the other races were still grateful. So, were the Krogan given any planets at all?

If the Krogan were given a set limit of planets, and that limit was enforced, the Rebellions may not have even occurred. The Council's policy of appeasement was simply a massive failure of diplomacy.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

So, were the Krogan given any planets at all?

Yes, they were.

If the Krogan were given a set limit of planets, and that limit was enforced, the Rebellions may not have even occurred. The Council's policy of appeasement was simply a massive failure of diplomacy.

It's amazing that the parallels escape you.

[111987]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

If the Krogan were given a set limit of planets, and that limit was enforced, the Rebellions may not have even occurred. The Council's policy of appeasement was simply a massive failure of diplomacy.
[/quote]It's amazing that the parallels escape you.
[/quote]

Care to explain what I am missing? The parallels between what?

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

Care to explain what I am missing? The parallels between what?

Thinking you can pacify the Krogan by giving them more worlds.

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

Care to explain what I am missing? The parallels between what?

Thinking you can pacify the Krogan by giving them more worlds.

Well, they'll definitley need more worlds than Tuchanka. So give them a set limit of planets, and have it enforced. Any sign of untoward expansion should be dealt with immediately; no more appeasement. Say you give the Krogan 7 worlds to colonize. No more planets for them unless they discover them themselves. If they try to take a planet held by another planet, economic/military action will be taken against them right then and there.

[Swampthing500]

111987 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

Care to explain what I am missing? The parallels between what?

Thinking you can pacify the Krogan by giving them more worlds.

Well, they'll definitley need more worlds than Tuchanka. So give them a set limit of planets, and have it enforced. Any sign of untoward expansion should be dealt with immediately; no more appeasement. Say you give the Krogan 7 worlds to colonize. No more planets for them unless they discover them themselves. If they try to take a planet held by another planet, economic/military action will be taken against them right then and there.

The Krogan were just fine with Tuchanka. The harsh environment kept their numbers low. It was when they were introduced to calmer worlds that the problems began.

The Council also did not appease the Krogan. Once they started settling outside their worlds onto occupied planets they were warned to leave. When that did not happen war erupted.

[CerberusWarrior]

The Krogans freaking deserve to be saved since they were at one time slaves to the pathetic council and alliance and thats how they get treated . hell if this was BSN's princess Tali and her people this place would be all in a rage demanding it be cured or better yet if one the so called chosen ones from the alliance aka as VS had this same issue people would feel different .

[sponge56]

CerberusWarrior wrote...

The Krogans freaking deserve to be saved since they were at one time slaves to the pathetic council and alliance and thats how they get treated . hell if this was BSN's princess Tali and her people this place would be all in a rage demanding it be cured or better yet if one the so called chosen ones from the alliance aka as VS had this same issue people would feel different .

Whereas I agree that it needs to be cured I don't however think the Krogan were ever slaves to the Council, and certainly not the Alliance .  You don't reward slaves with technological renewal, countless colony worlds, and a big shiny statue in the heart of your own government.  Also I don't see how the Krogan are in any way connected to the Alliance whatsoever.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

sponge56 wrote...
1) In a Darwinian sense, the Krogan shouldnt really exist anymore.  When they were uplifited the Krogan had destroyed their own planet and populations through a nuclear apocolypse.  The Salarians could simply be argued as prolonging the inevitable by uplifting them.

I don't think that argument is right, as it would not have been enough to destroy the Krogans, only most of them.
Personally I think the Genophage have saved them from a REAL genocide (like what happened to the Rachni) after a long and painful war against the Turians and the Humans.
But that's a past situation, and now that their species is not a danger anymore and that they may dissapear because of the reaper conflict they should be allowed to be cured.

[sponge56]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

I don't think that argument is right, as it would not have been enough to destroy the Krogans, only most of them.
Personally I think the Genophage have saved them from a REAL genocide (like what happened to the Rachni) after a long and painful war against the Turians and the Humans.
But that's a past situation, and now that their species is not a danger anymore and that they may dissapear because of the reaper conflict they should be allowed to be cured.

I see your first point, I may change the OP so that its about the Krogan's self destructive nature instead of the whole evolution stuff.  As to you talking about the war against the Turians and Humans I think you might be confused, humanity joined the Council around 800 years after the Krogan Rebellions had finished.  It was the Salarians, Turians and Asari who fought the Krogan during the Rebellions

Modifié par sponge56, 23 novembre 2011 - 10:45 .