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#126
Bleachrude

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Um, why are Noveria and Ilum the Council's fault? Those are internal matters with regard to said nations...Hell, Illum is one of the Asari Republics if my understanding is correct since the law there was NOT C-sec.

Remember, the Council does NOT dictate internal policy. At most the council seems to deal with colony rights AI development and setting up the DN treaty.

Really, the Council is perhaps the BEST government one could expect for such a wide and diverse galaxy. The only time it pokes it head in government business is when said business affects ALL other governments.

I think the reason why everyone sticks with the Council is the simple fact that by not obeying the council edicts, you lose access to the markets of the Big 3. Hell, if the SA says tomorrow, "we;re leaving the council" I'd expect the biggest opposers to be SA companies and individuals themselves.

Losing access to the Asari market would cause a depression for pretty much every business and losing all 3 would wipe many of them out..

Modifié par Bleachrude, 25 novembre 2011 - 04:57 .


#127
Siegdrifa

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General User wrote...
What about Eden Prime? Or Ekuna? Or Tuchanka? Or Watson? What about Noveria and Illium where (as Dean so perfectly put it) "the Council does all those things they like to pretend are illegal?" What about the volus, hanar, and elcor? How long does an entire species have to defer to its "betters" before they can have a say in how they're governed?


The terminus system is not under the jurisdiction of the council, also, Noveria is a privat world, so free from the council authority, they let the specter in because they don't want to be put against the council at a certein point.

Illium as stated when you go out of the ship, is at the border of the terminus system, so they have to losen up a little in order to stay competitive with the terminus market, i'm not sayng it is a good arguement, that's what be got from the game.

All the human collony attacked and not defended by citadel forces are in terminus system, that's why the council can't be involved.

The elcor was discovered by the asari if i remember right, and they helped them to dicover and use the mass relay of their system to allow them farther travel or whatever they want to do with it.


Like stated in ME1 being a member of the council ask for the species represented to invest an amount their ressources (men, ship, money) to be used for the protection of citadel space and his devloppement, which is NOT possible for many species, they just can't afford it.
I find it not fair to let a species having as much influenece as the asari / salarian etc when they have actualy no financial investment and no ressources (men, ship) on the line to loose.
As much as it is unfair to not listen to them because they can't afford it, but that why the embassy are here.

Also, it would be inaccurate to percive or describe the council as a loby-budy, both asari, salarian, turian have their own culture, history and way to live, they are not mixed in one entity, and more importantly, while i don't deny they want to expend their influnence, it is not to force or destroy other species / culture, but to be part of this alliance where they all try to live in peace.

The council prefer for all the species to be "partners" and enforce this "partnership" and live as quietly as possible together rather than fighting eacher other and let dominant spices crush all other to extend themself over the dead bodys of the less fortunate / advanced species.

From what we see, the hannar and elcor seem pretty happy in the council space, the volus seems to complain, but they are greedy by nature, as descibed by the volus ambassador in ME1, they are always willing to increase their influence (even trading their own trib member if it help), and the governement is always shifting. Even if they will never be council member (they don't care about the greater good, only about their influence for their intrest it seems) the council favore them greatly, granting them enough new terrotiry to expend their colony ten times over since they are in citadel space, so we can't say that the council is dissmissing or ungratfull toward them.

The council don't govern them (wtf?), their laws are made in their homeworld. It's just that citadel space is a regulated space where all species agreeing to be part of it have to do some effort, to make the cooperation and exchanges as friendly as possible, the advantage is, being part of it allow a multi species protection if needed.
For exemple, the Batarian wasn't defended by the counsil after the human kicked their ass pretty badly because it was them who attacked first, and the world they tried to take from the human, even if near the battarian world, had no afficial belonging, futher more, the batarian never claimed they intended to take this world before they new it was full or ressources.

The citadel councilor are not a super president of anykind ... they express and defend the voices of their own political homeworld and colony, but each council race have to carry the responcability that their decision must be for the greater good of the citadel space and not their own only.

The counsil seems to be intrested in human species because this is one of the few that can fit a counsil race profile (travel into space on his own, etbablish stable colony, advanced technology, powerfull fleet and military forces, political union as a whole), what's keeping them at first is "are they willing to act for the citadel space intrest or their own intrest ?"
Thats why they welcome the human if you save them in ME1, because you prove that human are willing to protect the galaxy by sacrifying themself on the front line among turian, asari etc if needed be.
Also by making this decision, it appeas the relation between human and turian, in citadel you have a news reporting that the turian governement is thinking about making further reparation for the first contact wars. Those extended reparation wasn't asked by the humans.

#128
General User

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Barquiel wrote...
No species is forced to open an embassy on the citadel...and every species can close its embassy if they're dissatisfied with the council (-> batarians). Nobody will declare war on them and the council races still trade with non-council races.

All species accepted the council rules when they've applied for membership of the citadel council...and violating the laws/rules of an organization is valid grounds for expulsion from that organization (-> quarians). I really don't see the problem here.

The problem is that the only standard ANY nation/group/civilization/society should have to meet in order to be "accepted" is the ability to control its own borders without being hostile and aggressive towards its neighbors.

Wulfram wrote...
I'm not sure why the Alliance's refusal to adequately protect the colonies it has recklessly scattered over the galaxy is the Council's fault.

I think David Anderson put it best by saying that the Council wants us to settle and tame hostile regions of the galaxy, but then doesn't back us up when we inevitably run into trouble. 

And Eden Prime is different from the rest of humanity's colonies.  It was no mere pirate raid, it was a direct attack by a hostile power on the territory of a Citadel associate in good standing.  And, just like Ashley said, the Council would rather sic us on the bear and run.

Wulfram wrote...
Seems like it's a very prosperous Elcor world - at least, it's growing to a population of 200 million in less than a century indicates so.

Though the planet description is pretty nonsensical, as a lot of them are.

Call me a crazy Paragon, but any colonization plan that starts with the orbital bombardment of defenseless civilian settlements is not worth having.

Wulfram wrote...
A mess, but the Council can't force the Krogan to sort themselves out.

It's been centuries and Tuchanka is still under military occupation with no measurable improvement.  Does that seem right to you?

Wulfram wrote...
Not sure what you're referring to

A human colony full of innocent people becomes a casualty of a war the Council wanted us to fight.  What do you think the chances are that the Council is going to do the right thing and step-up to help with a reconstruction effort?  Somewhere between slim and nil is my guess.

Wulfram wrote...
Is the Council supposed to annex planets which choose to place themselves outside its borders?

If necessary, yes.  Though that could, of course, be avoided in the first place by not sanctioning the setting up political/economic "grey-zones" specifically for the purpose of conducting activity that would otherwise be considered illegal.

Wulfram (and also Bleachrude and Siegdrifa, who made similar points) wrote...
They have a lot of say in how they're governed.  And Humanity's rapid ascent to the Council makes it clear that it requires only a minimal amount of political will to achieve a seat pretty much immediately.  And they can always leave, if they don't feel they're getting a good deal.

That's not an acurate depiction.  A Citadel race can only govern themselves until they make a decision the Council doesn't like.   The Citadel has conventions and regulations that cover everything from AI technology to military capacity to bio-technology to information transmission (even consumer products if I'm not mistaken). 

So how does that work?   "You can govern yourselves as long as you make the decisions we want you to make."  Mr. Orwell, your table is ready!

And what happens if someone does defy the Council?  They get shut out ala the batarians.  There's no middle ground with the Council system.  You can either be a good little "lesser" race and toe the line, or get shut out entirely (then the Council finds some other race and pits them against you).

Modifié par General User, 25 novembre 2011 - 07:39 .


#129
Bleachrude

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1. Again, many of the citadel races can't meet the requirement of being able to protect themselves and their holdings.

In the Cerebus daily news For Feb 2010, the Hanar government actually turns to the Turians to send a dreadnought to deal with a comet coming at their colony and thanks to the ISAB, the Turians don't bother but the ISAB makes a mistake and yet the Turians get the most blame for not protecting the colony.

2. That's actually humanity's fault. It has been mentioned multiple times that the humans are simply expanding way past their own ability to protect (the whole overwhelming force in response to a colony attack - great for campaigns involving invasions but pirate raids et al means most human colonies are more vulnerable than most)

Furthermore, they did react to the Geth by trying to figure out what the hell the geth were doing outside of Council space...You didn't expect them to actually declare war on the geth for just one colony? Even before humanity had reached the stars, the council never went to war over 1 or even a couple of colonies being attacked...See both the batarians and the Krogans who in the past have attacked multiple colonies.

3. The elcor had claims to the world before the quarians set up the first colony. Not the council's fault that the quarians decided to put up shop in what is considered Citadel space BEFORE asking "is it ok to colonize here?"

4. How do the batarians get shut out by the Council when they were the ones to close their own embassy?

#130
DPSSOC

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General User wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Is the Council supposed to annex planets which choose to place themselves outside its borders?

If necessary, yes.  Though that could, of course, be avoided in the first place by not sanctioning the setting up political/economic "grey-zones" specifically for the purpose of conducting activity that would otherwise be considered illegal.


Aww and here I thought you were referring to the hypocrisy of the Council benefitting from, and their agents supporting financially (see Saren), the illegal activities on said worlds.  To me that's far worse than just letting it happen.  Letting it happen is one thing but the Council supports and encourages it with their actions.

#131
Bleachrude

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How is Noveria and Ilum the fault of the council? I've seen this a few times but I'm a little confused as to why this is the council fault.

The Noveria Development Company explicitly placed it outside of Citadel space to get around Citadel restrictions...

Ilum is an Asari republic world and thus, the council has no say in the internal workings of the republic.

Exactly what would be different if there was no council?

#132
FoxShadowblade

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I'd say make it Asari, Salarian, Human, and Turian. Avina points it out most aptly: Council races bear great responsibilities and are required to provide fleets and resources, the other races cannot do so on the level required. The only other race that could is the Quarians, who are exiled.

#133
DPSSOC

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Bleachrude wrote...

How is Noveria and Ilum the fault of the council? I've seen this a few times but I'm a little confused as to why this is the council fault.

The Noveria Development Company explicitly placed it outside of Citadel space to get around Citadel restrictions...

Ilum is an Asari republic world and thus, the council has no say in the internal workings of the republic.

Exactly what would be different if there was no council?


Illium as an Asari world is subject to Council laws, it doesn't hold the same exemption Noveria does.  That the Council allows Illium's illegal activities (Slavery for example) can be viewed as hypocritical given the Council (different Council admittedly) position on the Quarians who were booted out for violating Citadel Law while the Asari don't get so much as a slap on the wrist for Illium.

Noveria is the Council's fault partly because they allow it to happen (the system is within Council space and Novveria has no military) but I think the main criticism (or my main criticism) regarding Noveria is that the Council uses and supports them.  The Council buys from Synthetic Insights, Binary Helix, and many other corporations who set up R&D on Noveria because what they're doing is illegal in Council Space.  The hypocrisy of such an act undermines the moral high ground the Council likes to judge people from.  The same moral high ground that allows them to limit a species ability to defend itself and still do nothing when they inevbitably get attacked by species with no such limitations.

Everyone knows what Noveria and Illium are doing but the Council turns a blind eye to the illegal activities occurring in their space because they benefit from it.  Picture a tough on crime politician who pays and protects the mafia to commit more crimes so his position gains more support.

#134
Wulfram

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DPSSOC wrote...

Illium as an Asari world is subject to Council laws


No, it's not.  It's outside council space.

#135
Xilizhra

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Noveria is the Council's fault partly because they allow it to happen (the system is within Council space and Novveria has no military) but I think the main criticism (or my main criticism) regarding Noveria is that the Council uses and supports them. The Council buys from Synthetic Insights, Binary Helix, and many other corporations who set up R&D on Noveria because what they're doing is illegal in Council Space. The hypocrisy of such an act undermines the moral high ground the Council likes to judge people from. The same moral high ground that allows them to limit a species ability to defend itself and still do nothing when they inevbitably get attacked by species with no such limitations.

Is it so without precedent for a government to allow itself to own more items than it allows civilians to own?

#136
Dean_the_Young

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Xilizhra wrote...

Noveria is the Council's fault partly because they allow it to happen (the system is within Council space and Novveria has no military) but I think the main criticism (or my main criticism) regarding Noveria is that the Council uses and supports them. The Council buys from Synthetic Insights, Binary Helix, and many other corporations who set up R&D on Noveria because what they're doing is illegal in Council Space. The hypocrisy of such an act undermines the moral high ground the Council likes to judge people from. The same moral high ground that allows them to limit a species ability to defend itself and still do nothing when they inevbitably get attacked by species with no such limitations.

Is it so without precedent for a government to allow itself to own more items than it allows civilians to own?

Items? Yes. Policies, especially that it forbids itself? No, escept for the precedence of 'bad' governance, which isn't the sort that is defendable except by lowest common denominator.

#137
Xilizhra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Noveria is the Council's fault partly because they allow it to happen (the system is within Council space and Novveria has no military) but I think the main criticism (or my main criticism) regarding Noveria is that the Council uses and supports them. The Council buys from Synthetic Insights, Binary Helix, and many other corporations who set up R&D on Noveria because what they're doing is illegal in Council Space. The hypocrisy of such an act undermines the moral high ground the Council likes to judge people from. The same moral high ground that allows them to limit a species ability to defend itself and still do nothing when they inevbitably get attacked by species with no such limitations.

Is it so without precedent for a government to allow itself to own more items than it allows civilians to own?

Items? Yes. Policies, especially that it forbids itself? No, escept for the precedence of 'bad' governance, which isn't the sort that is defendable except by lowest common denominator.

So governments wouldn't be allowed to do anything they forbid civilians to do?

#138
DPSSOC

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Xilizhra wrote...
Is it so without precedent for a government to allow itself to own more items than it allows civilians to own?


Certainly not but it's not the items Noveria develops that are illegal but their business practices.  Corporations go to Noveria because they can do whatever they want to develop whatever they want, but as corporations are very rarely going to develop things they can't sell on the open market, that's just bad business.

The Council knows that the anything produced by corporations on Noveria are developed using methods they do not sanction and that, if an associate race was found to be using, would result in their immediate expulsion.  They know this is the case and they don't care, they still use the products and their agents can openly support their activites.

Like I said they oppose the practices of Noveria in word only, their actions fully support everything they are and do.

#139
Xilizhra

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Perhaps I would be more opposed to this if we knew what these business practices actually are.

#140
DPSSOC

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Wulfram wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Illium as an Asari world is subject to Council laws


No, it's not.  It's outside council space.


Huh, I'll take your word for it haven't read the planet description or codex in some time, but "Gateway to the Terminus" always implied that they are still technically within Council space to me.

#141
General User

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Its all very simple really. 

When the Council needs one of their thugs to 'take care of business', Illium and Noveria are part of Council space. 

But when it comes to pesky little things like 'labor protections' or 'safety regulations', those planets are well outside the Council's jurisdiction.

Modifié par General User, 26 novembre 2011 - 07:52 .


#142
Dean_the_Young

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Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Noveria is the Council's fault partly because they allow it to happen (the system is within Council space and Novveria has no military) but I think the main criticism (or my main criticism) regarding Noveria is that the Council uses and supports them. The Council buys from Synthetic Insights, Binary Helix, and many other corporations who set up R&D on Noveria because what they're doing is illegal in Council Space. The hypocrisy of such an act undermines the moral high ground the Council likes to judge people from. The same moral high ground that allows them to limit a species ability to defend itself and still do nothing when they inevbitably get attacked by species with no such limitations.

Is it so without precedent for a government to allow itself to own more items than it allows civilians to own?

Items? Yes. Policies, especially that it forbids itself? No, escept for the precedence of 'bad' governance, which isn't the sort that is defendable except by lowest common denominator.

So governments wouldn't be allowed to do anything they forbid civilians to do?

Stop being deliberatly disingenuous, Xil.

Governments wouldn't be allowed to do what governments say they themselves are not allowed to do.

Such as de-facto legalizing slavery, prohibited genetics and AI research, or drug trafficking.

#143
Xilizhra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Noveria is the Council's fault partly because they allow it to happen (the system is within Council space and Novveria has no military) but I think the main criticism (or my main criticism) regarding Noveria is that the Council uses and supports them. The Council buys from Synthetic Insights, Binary Helix, and many other corporations who set up R&D on Noveria because what they're doing is illegal in Council Space. The hypocrisy of such an act undermines the moral high ground the Council likes to judge people from. The same moral high ground that allows them to limit a species ability to defend itself and still do nothing when they inevbitably get attacked by species with no such limitations.

Is it so without precedent for a government to allow itself to own more items than it allows civilians to own?

Items? Yes. Policies, especially that it forbids itself? No, escept for the precedence of 'bad' governance, which isn't the sort that is defendable except by lowest common denominator.

So governments wouldn't be allowed to do anything they forbid civilians to do?

Stop being deliberatly disingenuous, Xil.

Governments wouldn't be allowed to do what governments say they themselves are not allowed to do.

Such as de-facto legalizing slavery, prohibited genetics and AI research, or drug trafficking.

I think it's like that because directly nationalizing those corporations would be highly inefficient; thusly, the Council basically keeps discretionary power over who's trusted enough to perform the genetics/AI research. As for indentured servitude and drug trafficking, Ilium exists as a one-time-only economic transfer point.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 novembre 2011 - 08:25 .


#144
Bleachrude

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1. Drugs are not illegal...The codex expicitly mentions that Turians can do everything and anything as long as it doesn't interfere with their responsibilities.

2. AI research IS legal but just restricted.

3. Noveria and Ilum are corporate worlds and technically don't fall under their respective races governments...

#145
Dean_the_Young

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Bleachrude wrote...

1. Drugs are not illegal...The codex expicitly mentions that Turians can do everything and anything as long as it doesn't interfere with their responsibilities.

Certain drugs are illegal, and certain drugs aren't. If you wanted to get pedantic, medicines are drugs as well.

Red Sand, for example, is illegal in much of citadel space, but not Illium.


2. AI research IS legal but just restricted.

To about six groups in the galaxy. But not on Noveria, thanks to being 'outside' Council regulation.

3. Noveria and Ilum are corporate worlds and technically don't fall under their respective races governments...

And, de facto, do. Which is the issue: the selective 'technically' caveat that allows the Citadel Council to subvert its own rules with a wink and a nod.

#146
Dean_the_Young

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Xilizhra wrote...

I think it's like that because directly nationalizing those corporations would be highly inefficient; thusly, the Council basically keeps discretionary power over who's trusted enough to perform the genetics/AI research.

The Council doesn't need to nationalize those corporations. Nor does it need Noveria if it's going to trust corporations to do legal research.

As for indentured servitude and drug trafficking, Ilium exists as a one-time-only economic transfer point.

Yes. You enter as a slave, and leave as a 'contract' employee into the rest of Council space. That's the problem.

#147
DPSSOC

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General User wrote...

Its all very simple really. 

When the Council needs one of their thugs to 'take care of business', Illium and Noveria are part of Council space. 

But when it comes to pesky little things like 'labor protections' or 'safety regulations', those planets are well outside the Council's jurisdiction.


Ah that adorable Council and it's refusal to ever actually do anything.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 26 novembre 2011 - 11:30 .