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[Plaintiff]

Which one do you personally find the most appealling, and why? How do you feel about the others?

Chantry - Like most fictional religions (and real ones too, I'll be honest), the Chantry just strikes me as hypocritical and preachy to the point of nausea. It'd be like being stuck in a room surround by hundreds of Wynne clones, constantly wagging their fingers at you, going 'tut tut tut'. The way the Maker is depicted in the Chant of Light also doesn't make me want to worship him in the least; he sounds petty, jealous and sulky, more like a toddler than an ominpresent deity deserving of praise. Also, I disagree with the vast majority of their policies regarding pretty much everything.

Qunari - Similar to the Chantry, except they don't even pretend that you have free will, and make no secret of their plan to convert everyone to the Qun in the most violent way required. I find them utterly repellant. Far from returning the Tome of Koslun to them, I want to burn it, ****** on the ashes, and then scoop the damp pile into an urn and mail that back to them; with a big "BREAKABLE" sticker on it so the messengers know to kick it as much as possible on the way. I feel like the Qunari are the closest thing the series has to a definite villain and that any character who would willingly join them must be worse than retarded. Seamus Dumar comes to mind. "I'm a willful and argumentitive adolescent, frustrated by the limitations of my position in society, so I'm going to lash out by joining a religion where I have no options whatsoever! It makes perefect sense, shut up!"

Grey Wardens - Not exactly in "opposition", I know, since they're officially neutral. On a personal level, I think they're pretty badass, but their neutrality rubs me the wrong way. I realize it's something of a political necessity; allowing themselves to be distracted by outside politics compromises their ability to do their job. But Blights don't come around all that often and I feel that everyone has the responsibility to take action when they witness gross injustice. I think Sophia Dryden had the right idea... not the summoning demons part, I suppose. But the part about overthrowing a tyrannical king was fine.

Tevinter - Tevinter is about as evil as you can get. Everyone we've ever encountered who comes from there is a terrible, terrible person. But at the same, I can't help but respect that Tevinter knows what it is, and it owns that about itself. It wears the worst aspects of its society like a badge on its chest, proclaiming them as a matter of national pride. Tevinter is like the charismatic evil overlord you secretly root for because the hero is such an insufferable do-gooder. It struts around the playground, saying "Yeah, I keep slaves! I sacrifice them in blood mgic rituals! Whuteva! I do what I want!"

In a world full of hypocrisy and moral ambiguity, Tevinter is 100% evil and proud of it. I have to admire that.

Anyway, thoughts? Agree/disagree? Is there another group that I forgot to mention?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 novembre 2011 - 01:44 .

[Heimdall]

Meh, I don't really hate the chantry or see them as terribly hypocritical. The Templars are another matter.

[KJandrew]

I feel you forgot to mention Flemeth, with the all stuff she seems to be setting up she's got to be close to those four in the influence she's going to have on Thedas

Modifié par KJandrew, 24 novembre 2011 - 03:43 .

[maxernst]

These are apples and oranges comparisons. The Chantry is a religion and can be compared to the Qun as a religion. Tevinter is a country, and most appropriately compared to Orlais, Antiva or Ferelden.
The Wardens are an order, and best compared to groups like the Templars and The Antivan Crows.

[Plaintiff]

maxernst wrote...

These are apples and oranges comparisons. The Chantry is a religion and can be compared to the Qun as a religion. Tevinter is a country, and most appropriately compared to Orlais, Antiva or Ferelden.
The Wardens are an order, and best compared to groups like the Templars and The Antivan Crows.

That's a silly thing to say. A "faction" is any group of people. When I talk about the four major factions, I'm talking about the four distinct sources of major political conflict, their actual function and terminology is largely irrelevant. All four of these groups are involved in the politics of Thedas. Even the Grey Wardens, by choosing to stay out of the conflict, have an effect on it. Thus, they are the four major political factions in Thedas.

I'm talking in very broad terms here. The Templars, Orlais, Antiva and Ferelden all fall under the influence of the Chantry to a large degree (or did until recently). Only the Grey Wardens have the political clout to truly stand apart. The Crows are a non-entity; they are merely a tool at the disposal of others, and have very little power in their own right. Their influence, such as it is, is mostly localised in Antiva.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 24 novembre 2011 - 04:49 .

[RavenB]

I easily despise the Qunari more than any other faction in Thedas. I find their "deny and die" philosophy to be flatly abhorrent. I have no love for the Chantry, but I'll give them that they're miles ahead of the Qun in terms of freedom for absolutely everyone, including mages. Where religion is concerned, I think the Chantry is more benign in it's approach. I'm not aware that it's policy in any Chantry-majority nation to purge non-believers outright. They're not ideal by a long shot and I don't agree with how much hold they have stretching across Thedas, but they're a big step up from the Qun.

I don't feel like I have enough unbiased information about Tevinter to give a strong opinion of them. I don't agree with their policies on slavery, but that alone isn't enough for me to say they're worse than the Qunari. I would say it's enough for me to consider them worse than the Chantry, but I feel uncomfortable making that call now without having visited that country in game or having experience with them outside of illegal slave traders and such. I'm sure any country seems horrible if you only judge them by visiting smugglers and criminals. I need more concrete information.

The wardens are secretive and give a distinct impression of seediness at times, but I honestly can't think of anything offhand that I deeply disagreed with their choice on. I would say I prefer them to any other group mentioned based on the information we have. I wish the wardens would take a stronger role in Thedas. I felt like that might be what was being foreshadowed with Amaranthine and the First Warden's interest in it. It's definitely a development I'd love to see.

[Wulfram]

The Grey Wardens aren't a major faction.

Tossing Orlais, it's enemy Nevarra, and it's rebellious ex-province of Fereldan in the same faction makes no sense.

Tevinter seemed sort of interesting in Origins. But Bioware clearly decided that people seeing ambiguity in it was unacceptable, and made sure to paint it as one note evil land in DA2.

Qunari society holds no attraction to me. Really, I don't believe that it can exist without massive mind control magic or Qunari having a totally alien mind.

[KJandrew]

I'm a bit indecisive with my views on the Qunari. One one hand I read Plato's republic and found myself open to the concept of the purposed roles and found myself agreeing with the Qunari on that point. I admire the fact that Qunari advance through merit rather than favour and nepotism, I like the fact that Kossith, men, elves and dwarves are all equal under the Qun. However their obsessive need to conquer everything and convert everyone turns me off them. I can understand their wish not to have non-Qunari in the community as it could cause corruption and the two sides would not be able to mix. If they had just existed as an insular community in the North, fighting to defend themselves and conquer if it holds benefits to their nation like the other countries do i would respect them a lot more and probably think of them as one of the best communities in Thedas. But their idea that they have to convert everything as some sort of holy crusade just makes hard for me to like them.

[General User]

Of those four? And I had to pick one... I'd throw my lot in with the Grey Wardens.

But what about the secular rulers of Thedas, the kings and queens?

What about the mage rebellion?

[Sir JK]

I wouldn't say there's four main opposing factions globally. As much as the Chantry and the Qunari portrays themselves as enemies, on a global scale they barely interact. Same applies to Chantry and Tevinter. And Tevinter's struggle with the Qunari is a regional one and not a global one.
The Grey Wardens shouldn't even apply as a major faction, because the only areas where they are of true consequence is Anderfels and now Ferelden.

And I feel this list misses other big players. Like the court of the Empress. In all practicality, it is the Orlesian monarchy that's the Chantry's biggest opponent. Since the stronger the Chantry is in Orlais, the weaker the empress will be. Moreover, it is the Empress that governs not only the largest nation in the world... but also more or less dictates the future of her closest neighbours.

And then there's the Antivan Crows, de facto rulers of Antiva and the formost assassins of the world. Certainly a major international power in their own right. Influencing things well beyond the borders of Antiva.

Nevarra is also a very powerhungry nation, the coming trouble will no doubt be used by the kingdom to get benefits.

Not to mention that now the Templars should be considered a major international power in their own right, at the side of the Chantry.

And then there's many other regional but powerful factions. Like the Bannorn, Kirkwall and Starkhaven, The Felissima Armada, the Anderfels monarchy (which competes with the Wardens for power), and probably even individual magisters in Tevinter. And the dwarves. Kal-Sharok and Orzammar.

Modifié par Sir JK, 24 novembre 2011 - 06:53 .

[Gervaise]

Actually the Orlesian nobility are not the Chantry's biggest opponents but its biggest supporters. It was the Emperor Drakon who started the Chantry and ever since their interests have tended to run in tandam, so Chantry exalted marches just happen to have been against targets that have either a strategic or economic importance to Orlais. If you are rich and powerful enough in Orlais you can even buy a better life for your mage relative and bribe their way to being First Enchanter. I suspect that part of the reason the Orlesians would support the encarceration of mages generally is that mages are the one group who could given ordinary peasants the sort of power with which they could challenge the established order. So they are told this is being done for their own protection and stories are spread about the damage that out of control abominations have wrecked, so people are willing to go along with it. The Orlesian nobles will be the last to turn against the Chantry because it supports their Divine Right to rule over lesser beings - take away that hold over the peasant majority and their own position could be in jeopardy.

[DKJaigen]

Gervaise wrote...

Actually the Orlesian nobility are not the Chantry's biggest opponents but its biggest supporters.

That was before the events in MotA. Right now the Orlesian empire is cracking down on the chantry. And why wouldn't they? The chantry caused a war in their backyard and they involved themselves in imperial matters. We dont know what ambitions of the empress is at this point. But if she believes that the chantry has become an annoyance then she right now has the power to easily to dissolve the old chantry and then reform a new chantry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Orlais has already taken away some of the Chantry's power, by establishing the University of Orlais, as an alternative education to the one the Chantry supplies. Orlais would never disolve the Chantry though, it is far more useful as it is, if weakened, since the Chantry as it is, is international, and thus offer a measure of control to other nations, that Orlais can't refuse. If Orlais ever did disolve the Chantry, it would lose much of its influence in other nations.

[GodWood]

Qun for the wun.

[Gervaise]

I'm a bit confused - how do events in MotA show that the Orlesians are cracking down on the Chantry? Apart from Lelianna at the party, so far as I was aware the Chantry were not involved with what occurred. What war did the Chantry cause in Orlais' back yard? Could you elaborate please?

[Heimdall]

maxernst wrote...

These are apples and oranges comparisons. The Chantry is a religion and can be compared to the Qun as a religion. Tevinter is a country, and most appropriately compared to Orlais, Antiva or Ferelden.
The Wardens are an order, and best compared to groups like the Templars and The Antivan Crows.

Actually, comparing the Chantry and the Qunari is still prblematic.  The Qun is a philosophy and ideology, not a religion strictly speaking.  It also dominates it's subjects far more than the Chantry.

[Heimdall]

@OP

Chantry-I get it, you dislike organized religion

Qunari-No need to call names!

Grey Wardens-These guys are pretty far from being a major players in the events in Thedas unless a Blight is about

Tervinter-We pretty much only have extremely biased sources of information about Tervinter, I'd reserve judgment.

[primero holodon]

I didn't side with any of those factions in either game. My warden was a Dalish whos intrest in the other factions existed purley as a means of advancing his peoples agenda, and at the end of the game he got fed up with the grey wardens and human society and opted to leave them all behind to find his clan. My Hawke was an arrogant, sarchastic rogue, who hated Nobles, disliked the Chantry, and had ties to the mages underground.

[dragonflight288]

For me, the major political faction in the world of Thedas are Tevinter, the Qunari (they did manage to force all of Thedas to unite in order to push them back and made the Chantry desperate enough to use mages,) Orlais and the Chantry (I generally plop them into the same category because of their shared history together, often linked in blood,) templars and finally the mages.

Regardless of Tevinter's current status, they have had four exalted marches called on them and all ended in failure. They fight a continual war with the Qunari, have the best trained mages in Thedas (and the most blood mages,) and when anyone has any notion for magical research beyond what is available, Tevinter is always the place to go (Wynne and Shale, Fenriel.) Their practice of slavery is so ingrained into the culture that when an Archon outlawed it, all the magisters made sure he was assassinated because Tevinter doesn't know how to operate without slaves. It's a land where mages rule. Whether that's a good or bad thing, I cannot say because I have only seen extremely biased sources when it comes to Tevinter.

The Qunari on the other hand, I honestly would love to see more of. In origins, Sten was fascinated by artwork and paintings. The Codex refers to the army as the body of the Qun, but everyone in Par Vollen and Seherron, the artisans, the farmers, they make up the soul. And Tallis does make a good case for the Qunari in one thing. Racial equality. Everyone in the Qun is judged by their merits, and not their race or lineage. Once you are judged and placed, you cannot escape from the duty, but an elf will have the exact same opportunities as a human or Kossith.

I chuckle when I think of Zevran asking Sten about elves ruling humans, but seemed unable to grasp that elves are equal to humans, and vice-versa to only some of the elves led, if they had the aptitude, whereas only some of the humans followed, were it in their talents to do so.

The Chantry and Orlais, well I find the nobles so very amusing (Mine, mine, mine!!!) when they don't get their way. And the political games would be absolutely fascinating, and deadly, to witness. The Chantry, I think, cannot agree with itself on being the loving mother or the disciplinarian father. Seems to change with each Divine and on each revered mother and grand cleric. Imagine if Petrice were Grand Cleric and not Elthina.

Orlais, the Chantry, and its followers are incredibly prejudiced against elves, mages, non-humans, and anything heretical. The Chantry removed the section about Shartan from the Chant of Light for being heretical, no one bats an eye when an alienage is purged, Chevalier's are allowed certain privileges with women of lower status. Vaughn, a noble in Denerim shows players how the majority of humans view elves throughout Thedas.

Under the Chantry's guidance and Orlesian occupation throughout history (and the Imperium at its height) has bred prejudice, superiority complexes, and a thirst for blood against anything heretical.

Templars are a political faction, even before the big blowup in DA2. That much is clear when we see how much political power Meredith has BEFORE Hawke even enters Kirkwall. The guards are following her orders and Dumar doesn't stand up to her. The templars are also largely recruited from religious zealots and not people of moral fiber. I'm not saying that all templars are like that. Far from it. Ser Bryant in Lothering knows Morrigan and (potentially) the Warden were mages and did nothing about it as he was more worried about the Darkspawn. Gregoire was a man honestly trying to do the best he can while fulfilling his duty as Knight-Commander. He worked with Irving, not suppressed him. Ser Otto was doing the best he possibly could to help the alienage despite his blindness. Ser Thrask, while supporting the circle, was the only person I know of who successfully managed to get templars and mages to work together for a common goal.

The templars will be divided in the war. People staying true to the Chantry, people so zealous in the hunt for mages that they will see every last thing they do as justified by the Maker, no matter how repulsive. Then there will be templars likely working with the monarchy of each country, seeing more benefit from that. Lyrium smuggling may likely be at an all time high as well (most of that is conjecture.)

The mages have less numbers than any other group. But they have incredible power that everyone fears and respects. They have general sympathy for their plight at the hands of the Chantry, They also have blood magic and can influence the decisions of monarchs, members of the chantry. But they also have this huge stigma of a thousand years of prejudice against them by the Chantry. And the threat of abominations.

I honestly do not think abominations are as big a threat as the Chantry and the most ardent templar supporter says it is, but it's not as laid back as some of the mages may say it is.

Also, the amount of damage a mage can do is potentially greater than any mage can possibly hope to do in a single moment.

All sides have faults. As for me, I'd likely camp out in Orzammar.