14 réponses à ce sujet

[Merlex]

I'm playing my first full runthrough, off and on. I'm playing a pro mage/ neutral DW shadow assassin. I only have the black emporium and the hound for dlc, and that's not changing anytime soon.

The build is setup to for shadow veil + ambush + lingering shroud combos. My rogue has all three stealths, full assassinate, speed, twist knife, blindside, and full dw (except for bs upgrades). I rotate Aveline, Merrill, Varric, and Anders. I have Aveline setup for defense, buffing, staggers and stuns (bodyguard, battle synergy, shield bash, pommel, rally, muscle, cleave, ect). Merrill and Varric are setup for control and damage. Merrill with primal tree, crushing prison, barrier, ew, elemental dips, BOTF, wraith and  death vortex for heath in blood magic mode. Varric with both of his archery trees, sabotage, and of course speed, blindside, ttk. With Anders setup with pancea, haste, spirit, primal and  vengence.

Basically i use stagger, brittle, disorient, and stun ccc. I split between the 2 main stats for each character (magic and con for Merrill). I got these ideas from players here, through build guides; though its was a couple of months ago. Now i see that this not the best way to go. That "there is a lot of fail" in this style. That rally, healing and defensive talents/ spells are not that good. I do find if i leave Anders home, i do more damage, but i use more injury kits.

I don't play this game just for the last battle. So, what did i do wrong? It's most likely too late for this runthrough, as i started act 3. But next i'm playing a pro templar SS warrior, with Fenris, Varric/ Isabela, Anders/ Betheny.

Thanks.

edited to add: sorry i play on hard.

Modifié par Merlex, 24 novembre 2011 - 01:58 .

[Arthur Cousland]

As long as you are able to progress in the game and not get stuck, don't worry too much about being "optimal".

Also, remember that using a Maker's Sigh potion from the Black Emporium allows you to respec Hawke+companions, so no build mistakes are permanent.

Just finish your playthrough. Next time, things will seem much easier with the knowledge from your initial playthrough.

There's nothing wrong with going defensive. On harder difficulties, some enemies are just too dangerous to not want to kill a.s.a.p., and thus people like to kill everyone before they have a chance to fight back.

[cJohnOne]

I don't get much in the Archery tree until I have most of the Sabotage tree. I don't use the combos with disoriente but I still get it anyways. After that I like to get rain of arrows just 'cause it neat looking that about it for the Archery tree. I get Varrics personal tree except for Kickback but that just me. I think I also get rush upgraded once too.

[Merlex]

Thanks for the replies.

@ cJohnOne, with my dw rogue hawk build, i get a descent amount of disorients, but its the last ccc i worry about. But with golem fist, spirit strike, with short cooldowns. Then with a fully upgrade walking bomb, disorient seems too nice to ignore. With Varric, i went the archery trees first then sabotage. Upgrade kickback (also with a quick cooldown) does +800 % vs staggered, Aveline staggers very frequently.

[Merlex]

@ Arthur

No i haven't gotten stuck. I have use the maker's sigh potion to respec the party a couple of times. I come here, learn something new and try it out. Honestly i didnt think of my party build as defensive, but balanced. Varric has most of the damage dealing talents, except upgrades to pinning shot. Merrell has all of the primal tree, crushing prison, fireball, upgraded winter's, and fully upgraded wrath. After a respec, Anders has more firepower with spirit bolt, and walking bomb added to chain reaction, stone fist  petrify, and haste. DW Hawk has fully upgraded assassinated, reverse grip. And with ambush he crits constantly.

But he does have shadow and not duelist. Aveline is set up to rally, takes everyone elses damage, staggers and not a whole lot else. Even with bodyguard and hero's synergy anders dies a lot. Losing your healer early in a fight hurts this style. Some of my fights take a while, and tactics have their limits. I have to micromanage a lot more than i want to. ARW took me 30 minutes after a reload. Yea i know about the pillars, the hold button sucks lol. The bone pit dragon in act 3 took 2 reloads i don't know how long and a party change. I left anders, and went with Aveline, Merrill, and Varric.

I'm not limpping along, most of the time things go well, but i'm only playing on hard. My next playthrough, i'm going to nightmare. My biggest problem is attributes. I've read a lot of conflicting info about building. I've read to pump dex (for a dw) until you get 100% crit chance, and i've read only until 42 for endgame gear. Well i'm over 50 and it's not 100cc. I have champion armor, and belt of promise, ring of no wishes, puzzle ring, maker's kiss, and shadows claw.

What about my companions how do i stat their attributes? What i'm seeing lately seems to suggest not to put much in con for Aveline or Merrill? I'm also seeing that i should ignore pancea for Anders. The build sticky seems to me to be different. Like i said this mostly for my next runthrough, well two runs. A S/S warrior Hawk, with Fenris, Varric, and random mage. Then i'm going with Bloodmage Hawk.

Thanks for taking the time out to help.

Modifié par Merlex, 25 novembre 2011 - 01:17 .

[esper]

@Merlex.
What about sustains? The aurua in the mages creation three adds, I think it is plus 15 to attack. Do you have that or something equal?

[Arthur Cousland]

Try Aveline with bravery and, if needed, have her target Anders with bodyguard (can't use tactics for bodyguard).

I'd ignore the archery tree with Varric and have him focus on his personal tree, sabotage and subterfuge. If Anders comes under fire, Varric can use goad and armistice to help get the hate off of him. Back to Back is good for Varric to use when low on health or surrounded by enemies to get out of trouble. Chameleon's Breath will obscure the party, making them harder to hit.

Ignore panacea for Anders?  He won't have access to aid allies and regroup then.  He'd be no better a healer than Bethany (if available).  Panacea is what gives him the edge, though a spirit healer Hawke will always be the best healer due to the upgrades to the spirit healer talents.

This guide has some useful tactics setups, especially for Anders and Varric:
http://social.biowar...5/index/6396096

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 25 novembre 2011 - 01:31 .

[Merlex]

It has been a while since i played. I forgot my last respec.  Here is my party:

Hawk: Dex 52 (83%) Cun 66 (250%) Will 14

Backstab
Stealth
Speed
Unforgiving Chain
Explosive Strike + Merciless Strike
Twin Fang + Reversed Grip
Pinpoint Precision
Disorienting Criticals
Inconspicious
Decoy
Shadow Veil 
Bloodlust
Mark of Death
Pinpoint Strikes
Assassinate + Annihilate + Overkill
Devious Harm
Lacerate + Maim
Evade 
Ambush
Lingering Shroud
Blideside
Back to Back

Planned:
Invisible Friend
Twist the Knife
Predator

Varric: Dex 44 (40%) Cun 44 (94%) Will 16 Con 12

Speed
Biana's Song + Embellishment
Rhyming Triplet + Nameless Graces
Kickback + Backlash
Pinning Shot + Disorienting Shot
Bursting Arrow + Shattering Arrow + Smoking Arrow
Hail of Arrows
Archers Lance + Punishing Lance
Blindside
Armistice
Twist the Knife
Miamic Flask + Improved Formula
Rush
Fatiguing Fog + Overpowing Fog + Impenetrable Fog

Planned :
Well Oiled
Evade
Tactical Withdraw

Aveline: Str 44 Con 46 Will 16

Shield Bash + Pummel
Shield Defense
Perception
Scatter
Safeguard
Might + Muscle
Control 
Cleave+ Claymore
Taunt
Pommel Strike + Pommel Blow
Rally + Unite
Bolster
Battle Synergy + Hero's Synergy
Immovable + Unstoppable
Retaliation
Bodyguard + Elite Bodyguard

Planned:
Disperse
Second Wind
Destroyer

Merrill: Mag 49 Con 52 Will 13

Winter's Grasp +Winter's Blast
Fireball
Rock Armor
Stonefist + Golem 's Fist
Petrify + Desiccate
Chain Lightning + Chain Reaction
Tempest
Galvanism
Elemental Weapons
Hex of Torment
Horror + Despair
Misdirection Hex + Shackling Hex
Blood of the First
Wraith of the Elvhen + Arlathan's Grace + Loss of the Dales
Spirit Bolt + Spirit Strike
Death Syphon + Death Vortex

Planned:
Walking Bomb + Corrosive Walking Bomb + Virulent Walking Bomb

Anders: Mag 42 Will 44 Con 18

Heal + Greater Heal
Heroic Aura + Valiant Aura
Haste + Great Haste
Panacea
Regroup
Aid Allies
Vengence
Martyr
Blood of My Enemy
Swift Justice
Stone Armor
Chain Lightning + Chain Reaction
Stonefist 
Petrify + Desiccate
Elemental Weapons
Mind Blast
Crushing Prison + Paralyzing Prison
Barrier + Arcane Fortress

Planned:
Golem's Fist
Wraith


Now i know that Death Vortex is frowned upon, but Merrill was dying in blood magic mode. I tried deactivating it  and healing. But i would have to deactivate wrath take a mana potion before i could reactivate blood magic.  She only has a 4 to 1 ratio. I could only find 4 items ( Cold Blooded, that Amulet reward, a belt and one ring). As i'm in Act 3 it's to late. The rest of her items grated bonuses to health. Death Vortex helpped a lot, but hurt her damage output some. Merrill's build wasn't exactly what i remembered. I must have traded in COC, and the Walking Bomb set for Entropy spells. Except Hex, had that early.

I suspect the Mage builds are most of the problem. But i'm not changing Hawk, so without Duelist, fights will take a little longer. Shadow is just to much fun, and with Lingering Shroud and Ambush, i crit a lot.

Modifié par Merlex, 25 novembre 2011 - 01:37 .

[Merlex]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Try Aveline with bravery and, if needed, have her target Anders with bodyguard (can't use tactics for bodyguard).

I'd ignore the archery tree with Varric and have him focus on his personal tree, sabotage and subterfuge. If Anders comes under fire, Varric can use goad and armistice to help get the hate off of him. Back to Back is good for Varric to use when low on health or surrounded by enemies to get out of trouble. Chameleon's Breath will obscure the party, making them harder to hit.

I just posted my complete builds below.. Aveline always uses bodyguard on Anders, if he's alive. Hawk doesn't need it. I know bodyguard tactics don't work.

Ignore panacea for Anders?  He won't have access to aid allies and regroup then.  He'd be no better a healer than Bethany (if available).  Panacea is what gives him the edge, though a spirit healer Hawke will always be the best healer due to the upgrades to the spirit healer talents.

Well the discussion here: http://social.biowar...8/index/8719755 is what prompted me to post this thread. It seem to suggest that healing in general, except potions and a back up heal is the wrong way to go.

This guide has some useful tactics setups, especially for Anders and Varric:
http://social.biowar...5/index/6396096

 Thanks, i do use them, or my party would get trashed.
 
Edited to add:

I just looked up bravery, wow how did miss that. bye-bye Battle Synergy.

Modifié par Merlex, 25 novembre 2011 - 04:27 .

[Arthur Cousland]

If your mages are getting beaten up, it's probably because they are too far from the tank when they use taunt. Taunt+bravery fully upgraded, and a rogue using goad+armistice does wonders for me. From time to time, I also will use the move command to have my ranged fighters go stand somewhere safe, after the waves leave the party surrounded.

[Merlex]

Thanks, adding bravery and goad to the mixed seems to have worked. With Avelines respec i added more strength, for a little higher dps. I left Anders alone, but changed Merrill and Varric.

Aveline: STR 50 CON 41 WILL 16- may have to add to willpower.

S&S: Shield Bash + Pummel, Shield Defense, Perception, Scatter, Safeguard
Warmonger: Taunt, Pommel Strike, Bravery + Bravado + Bravura
Vanguard: Might + Muscle, Control, Cleave + Claymore
Battlemaster: Rally + Unite, Bolster
Guardian: Immovable + Unstoppable, Retaliation, Bodyguard + Elite Bodyguard
Next: Pommel Blow, Second Wind, Thick Skin or Destroyer

Varric: DEX 44 CUN 44 WILL 16 CON 12  edit :uh I left a lot of Varrics talents out. Fixed

Specialist: Speed
Marksman: Bianca's Song + Embellishment, Rhyming Triplet + Nameless Graces, Kickback + Backlash, Well-Oiled
Scoundrel: Blindside, Twist the Knife, Armistice, Goad
Sabotage: Miasmic Flask + Improved Formula, Rush, Fatiguing Fog + Overpowering Fog + Impenetrable Fog
Subterfuge: Evade + Tactical Withdrawal
Bianca: Pinning Shot, Disorienting Shot, Bursting Arrow, Shattering Arrow
Next: Archer's Lance, Smoking Arrow, Punishing Lance

Merrill: MAG 47 CON 48 WILL 13

Dalish: Blood of the First, Wrath of the Elvhen + Loss of the Dales + Arlathans Grace
Elemental: Winter's Grasp + Winter's Blast, Cone of Cold + Deep Freeze
Primal: Rock Armor, Chain Lightning + Chain Reaction, Stonefist + Golem's Fist, Petrify + Desiccate, Tempest, Galvanism
Entropy: Hex of Torment, Horror + Despair, Misdirection Hex + Shackling Hex
Spirit: Spiritbolt, Walking Bomb
Arcane: Elemental Weapons (forgot i gave her the arcane potion)
Next: Corrosive Walking Bomb, Virulent Walking Bomb, Spirit Strike

Modifié par Merlex, 27 novembre 2011 - 11:55 .

[cJohnOne]

Interesting theory with evade but I find that Stealth is better myself.

I think I do fine with Aveline at 30 Constitution. I'm thinking of trying a full Strength Aveline but since I'm a bad player it probably wouldn't work.

How many hit points does Merrill have at that point?

[Merlex]

Hawk uses all three stealths with Shadow Veil and Ambush. Varric uses Evade + TW for escape and the aol stun. Add that to Miasmic Flask, Aveline's Pommells, throw in Twist the Knife, here comes Bianca. And Hawk will get Twist the Knife at 26th level. Varric gets Hawks hand me down crit gear (little brother syndrom), so he's a little behind in crit chance. These CCCs change that. The rest of his points are going in cunning to up his crit damage. Plus i messed up a gave him a certain rune, wow! Hey i didn't know any better lol.

You may be correct about Aveline's con. The closest i came to losing her since the Deep Roads was the Act 3 Bonepit, when Anders died in the 'first quarter'. After i crapped myself i got myself together, and we did fine. She still had 25% of her health at the end.

But i just did a major overhaul on her; lowered con and added str, to up the dps a little. I want to give it another quest to see how it goes. Her main functions in this setup are damage transfer, threat transfer and buffing. But she needs more stamina to do this. More str wouldn't be bad either. I only have maybe 2-3 levels left, so another 6-9 points. I did some companion ring swaps. Now Aveline STR 49 CON 42 WILL 17 + 6-9 future points. Maybe STR 60 CON 30 (32) WILL 24 (25).

Merrill's attributes changed as well. I found another bloodmagic ring. Yea 4.25 to 1. MAG 46 Will 12 CON 47. Health is currently at 343. I'll most likely put the last 6-9 points in Magic.

I can't wait for Sis, been saving some nice generic items for her.

Edited to add :That ring swap netted Varric the Etched Ring. That boosted some crit stats.

Modifié par Merlex, 27 novembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[Merlex]

cJohnOne, I'm new to mana based RPGs, i'm use to D&D style play. I still need more experience as Aveline's old build showed. (I don't play many warriors).

But the community has a lot of usefull guides posted. The Money Guide, class and Companion Guides with tactics, Enemy Immunity Guides. They have been invaluble to me. And let me thank them right now. THANKS!!!

When i first started, i was completely lost. Auto Tactics? CCCs? Where's all the gold? This is my first time into Act 3, but my 3rd start (Same general Hawk build). The first one was fun, but i had no clue. I got as far as the beginning of the Deep Roads (patch 1.01). Got busy for a couple of months. I started over, patched to 1.03 (Hey bug fixes. What! Why do my bloodmagic items say +.25 to 1, uh something seems different about warriors. Got to learn to read those patches first-lol) Got as far as late 2nd act, and was broke.

That patch and Hawk's creditors brought me here, and i started reading. I came up with a concept and started over, my last DW Hawk. I used to pause a lot (well sometimes i still do ), and looked at what was going on. (pause is your friend). Who the enemy was attacking the most. Keeping a close eye on health and mana bars. Checking the enemie's strategies. Holding off on potions untill the last possible moment. Set my keyboard up to help with the flow of the game. Devising tactics that have one companion help other companions, the guides really helped there. Turned the party into a true combat unit. But the guides are just that, guides. You have to adapt the guides to your Hawk and party concepts.

Trial and error is the best way for me. Take what works, discard the rest until you can use it on another playthough.. I was having problems, came here and found out what that patch did. I saw that playing styles had changed some and adapted somewhat to. I'm stubborn, i know that. Just keep trying, it's worth it to me.

Modifié par Merlex, 27 novembre 2011 - 04:37 .

[PsychicHammer]

If I may make a few suggestions:

Man, I really have no idea why your Hawke build appears as it does. I dunno if you'll even read this, but if you do so before completing the game... I'd change a few things if I were you.

Respec asap to this:
DW: Backstab, Mercilles Strike, Reversed Grip, Maim
Subterfuge: Stealth
Scoundrel: Blindside
Shadow: Pinpoint Precision, Disorienting Criticals, Inconspicious, Sturdy Decoy, Shadow Veil
Specialist: Speed
Assassin: Mark of Death, Bloodlust, Pinpoint Strikes, Assassinate+upgrades, Devious Harm.

That's 3 skill points less than your original build, which means that with 3 skill Tomes in game you're done on level 21. Then you could do sth like this:
Specialist: Power, Precision, Harmony, Lightning Speed, Energizing Speed
OR:
Subterfuge: Evade, Chameleon's Breath, Chameleon's Cloud.

Build justification: Respec and take those 14-16 pts from cun and throw it into dex for your Hawke. You'll not only get more attack, higher base dmg and still be able to disarm/lockpick everything, but you'll also get 100% crit chance. Having 100% crit chance and 220% crit dmg is better than 83% crit chance and 250% crit dmg. Landing a crit with every swing will increase your dmg output.
100% crit chance cancels out Ambush from the build, thus saving you one skill point.

Using Lingering Shroud is counterproductive to playing Shadow. It makes you loose obscure effect sooner, and Shadows want to stay obscured as long as possible. It gives them a boost of 50% crit dmg, which is huge and you disorient all things on crit while obscured (with 100% crit chance you'll be disorienting faster than Aveline can take advantage of it). Since you play on Hard, set Aveline to unleash her S&S CCC on disoriented targets, especially elites. Sturdy Decoy gives Decoy 5 more seconds, letting you dish out free unopposed dmg that much longer. Couple that with how fast DW Rogues attack and 5 seconds makes a world of difference. Bosses like Orisno will also be fooled by Decoy. My Shadow/Assassin Hawke (equipped with DLC stuff, for sure) killed Orsino in just under 3 mins. Would have been less, if not for stupid delays in adds spawning. Even without DLCs, your Hawke can still be plenty powerful.

Varric: get rid of Twist the Knife. Why would you need that? Also, on respec, put all his points into dex, to buff his crit chance. Same as Hawke - first, you cuild up crit chance, then crit dmg. Varric doesn't need cun, Hawke will do disarming/lockpicking, as mentioned before. 

Merrill: take some of her con - she really doesn't need more 300 health, at most - and drop those points in magic. She will still be durable and won't have to drop out of Blood of the First and she'll do more dmg. That's what we want, right? More dmg. 

Aveline: same story - cut down her con and drop some more points in strenght and willpower. Additionallt, Bravery is reallt only good for clustered groups of enemies. Hawke kills stuff so fast that those groups quickly cease to exist. Remove Bravery entirely from her build - it consumes 30% stamina and is only useful situationally, like the Varnell fight - and give her Bettlemaster stamina talents to keep her rolling. Also, I only find Boduguard annoying. You're better off giving her Destroyer and S&S CCC - Disperse and Battery. Shield Defense left unused. 

That should increase your party dmg output drastically, making the game much easier, and, in some cases, a cakewalk. 

Modifié par Scott_Press, 04 décembre 2011 - 06:29 .