43 réponses à ce sujet

[MKDAWUSS]

I'd love to see the role of Blood Magic become a bit less black-and-white like it's been portrayed so far. Show it in several shades of gray.

[Lynata]

Magic in general is several shades of grey already. Blood magic being the "black", used in the narration to show both the dangerous side of magic, as well as underlining that the Grey Wardens really "do what it takes" when they deem it necessary.

I for one think that the way magic is handled in this setting sets it apart from standard contemporary D&D-style fantasy where mages are perfectly accepted. It's one of the things that, just like the elves being treated like dirt, makes it special and refreshingly interesting. If you take away the stigma that blood magic currently has, normal magic will invariably become more condoned and be seen like the "white" where it currently is the "grey".

And Dragon Age is supposed to be dark fantasy, which has no room for "white".
Just the way how I see it, of course. Preferences and tastes will differ.

RavenB wrote...
I don't think those magisters needed an
addiction. Their culture already taught them that sacrificing slaves is
the rational and acceptable course of action under those circumstances. I
think it's more the social system they've lived under for generations,
not the medium of magic they're using.

Yet for all we know, the social system has developed under guidance from blood mages, not the other way around. The first blood mage was the founder of the Tevinter Imperium, dictating what would, propagated by its powerful magocracy, would later become social norm and Tevinter culture.

As far as addiction goes ... "power" can be addictive, too. Who doesn't want to play god?

Modifié par Lynata, 25 novembre 2011 - 08:16 .

[RavenB]

Lynata wrote...

Yet for all we know, the social system has developed under guidance from blood mages, not the other way around. The first blood mage was the founder of the Tevinter Imperium, dictating what would, propagated by its powerful magocracy, would later become social norm and Tevinter culture.

As far as addiction goes ... "power" can be addictive, too. Who doesn't want to play god?

That's not proof that the blood magic itself had addictive qualities. Correlation doesn't prove causation. Their values were not necessarily shaped by their use of blood magic and could easily have been pre-existing."Power" corrupts" is a popular cliche, but I think people pound it into the ground at times. All the skills and weapons given to any class result in a great superiority over normal folk, but that doesn't mean none of them can resist slaughtering bystanders every five minutes. They don't necessarily try to knock over every settlement they come across so they can declare themselves supreme ruler of all the land. The lure of power isn't exclusive to blood mages, but people seem to manage. 

What I would need to see is actual evidence that it has a realistic addictive property. We know Lyrium has such an effect on templars. It's highly volatile as a raw medium or in overdoses and can fry a person's mind. It also allows for massive power boosts, with the more you use giving a bigger boost. I'm not honestly seeing that blood magic inherently has more drawbacks than Lyrium based on the actual information given. 

[Lynata]

RavenB wrote...
Correlation doesn't prove causation. Their values were not necessarily shaped by their use of blood magic and could easily have been pre-existing.

I merely wanted to point out that what we know of history is the opposite of what was claimed in this thread, namely that blood mages were fond of sacrificing slaves because they were already used to giving less value to life - yet the truth is that Tevinter and blood magic popped up simultaneously. You can call it a coincidence, if you want, but that doesn't change that the assumed disconnect between blood magocracy and human sacrifices has no basis.

And yes, "power corrupts" is a very popular cliché, but it is anchored in human society and one of the biggest reasons for why our world is so screwed up. Regardless of how advanced mankind wishes to arrogantly see itself, the desire to dominate, the concept of the strong ruling over the weak, is still part of our socio-evolutionary heritage (just like our tendency to stick together and form groups) and it will continue to plague civilization for centuries if not millennia to come, and entire nations have succumbed to this in the past. It's just what we are, and what we need to be cautious of.

In fact, "power corrupts" is also what would make many a templar so prone of abusing their mage charges. Because for us humans, it's way too easy to be tempted into enjoying this stuff. We don't even have to look to Guantanamo for comparison, there's plenty military installations with folk who could not claim the excuse of suffering from some kind of war stress syndrome but where you still have "incidents". Same for the police force. Or common thugs on the streets. Gangs of teenagers who like to beat up someone who is easy prey. Politicians and managers who succumb to the influence and immunity their station can bring. The list goes on.

Modifié par Lynata, 25 novembre 2011 - 09:44 .

[TEWR]

RavenB wrote...

katling73 wrote...

In terms of blood magic, I think blood magic does fall into the tool category as long as you're using your own blood. Once you start using other people's blood, either willingly or unwillingly, you start to cross a bit of a moral and ethical line. What I'd be interested to know is whether using someone else's blood changes the nature and strength of the magic? Does using the blood of a sacrifice give you more power? I feel it's sort of implied a little in the fact that the Tevinter magisters will so quickly and easily sacrifice a slave when they need power. If they got sufficient power from just cutting their palm then why would they need the slave? So I tend to see blood magic as being a little addictive once you start using other people's blood. The power you can access is greater so the temptation to do it again grows and grows. The mage starts making excuses at first about why he needs to use other peoples blood then the excuses become weaker and weaker until finally he doesn't care any more.

To me, it only crosses a moral line if the people you're using blood from are relatively innocent or uninvolved in your conflict, like slaves. I don't see any issue using it from enemies that you were going to kill, anyway. No matter what class you are in the DA games, you dish out wholesale slaughter to a massive amount of people and creatures. I don't see utilizing their blood as taking it too far.

I didn't get the impression that someone elses blood was stronger, so much as that more blood made for stronger spells. It's the same idea with lyrium. The more of it you have, the more and more powerful spells you can do. I don't think there's any real proof that it's addictive, however. We know lyrium is addictive and it's still peddled as the acceptable source for magical enhancement. I haven't seen any evidence that blood is addictive in terms of blood magic. The Tevinter society, as far as we know it, has no qualms with the sacrifice of slaves for blood magic. I don't think those magisters needed an addiction. Their culture already taught them that sacrificing slaves is the rational and acceptable course of action under those circumstances. I think it's more the social system they've lived under for generations, not the medium of magic they're using. 

I think the reason why using someone else's blood in Tevinter society is stronger is simply because if you use your blood you have to make sure you don't use all of your blood and die as a result.

For the Magisters, if they use other peoples' blood they'll use all of the blood in those people because of that fact.

More blood = more power.

[WhiteKnyght]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Spirits and Demons aren't the same. David Gaider confirmed that.

Demons embody sins while Spirits embody virtues. They also have completely different appearances and the side effects of possessing a living host are completely different.

In Dragon Age, to safely deal with a demon you must be ready and able to screw them before they screw you.

They might not be the same, but that definition only holds water when your idea of "sin" and "virtue" lines up with the Chantry's.

It's very telling that these "demons" take the names of human traits that the Chantry considers negative; Pride, Rage, Desire and Sloth. I see no evidence of demons referring to themselves as such. There's actually nothing wrong with these traits in moderation. I see no reason why "Desire Demons" can't be Spirits of Healthy Sexual Expression instead. It's not wrong to want things, it's not wrong to be proud or angry about something. Laziness might not be particularly desirable, but it's ultimately harmless. Oh, and aren't hunger demons a thing too? It's kind of hard to see how humans are supposed to help that. If our bodies didn't tell us when we were hungry, we'd starve and die.

Conversely, we've seen that these "virtuous" spirits can be just as bad as their "sinful" counterparts, even if they don't necessarily mean to be. Justice is harsh and unbending, and seemingly incapable of mercy. This is obvious even in Awakening, when he wants Velanna to be executed outright for committing murder, with no consideration for the fact that she was duped by the Architect. He also takes Anders to task for keeping a pet, because it's "slavery". Justice is also extremely prone to bouts of rage, one of the "sins" that demons supposedly embody. If embody is even the right word for it. Chantry lore (in one of the few instances where I think it's actually accurate), says that spirits and demons are shaped by the dreams they encounter in the Fade. They aren't actually capable of creating anything of their own. Justice doesn't embody justice, he merely emulates it as seen through a dream, which would explain why his concept of it is so skewed.

Wynne's "Faith" spirit may seem benign, and maybe it is, but we've also seen the damage that blind, unquestioning zealotry can cause, in characters like Meredith.

I think Isabela and Merrill combined provide the most accurate summation of the facts; spirits and demons are merely ideas, living in a world of ideas, and all of them are dangerous.

First, Justice wasn't half as bad before he merged with Anders.

Arguably a lot of good natured people would see death as an appropriate punishment for Velanna despite cricumstances. Being tricked doesn't excuse the extremes Velanna went to. She didn't even bother to look at obvious discrepancies and started attacking humans indiscriminately. And even attacked the Warden for trying to tell her the truth. Justice had a good point.

That thing we saw in Dragon Age II seemed like it was a manifestation of Anders' hatred mixed with Justice's spiritual powers. When you meet Justice in the fade, he's not the same wild animal. He's like he was in Awakening.

For all his talk of them being friends, Anders seems to just use Justice/Vengeance as an excuse for the things he wants to do. Even before DAII Anders expressed resentment towards the Circle, Chantry, and even said he'd like to rain fireballs on every Templar in creation.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The names of demons are not just spoken by the Chantry or by humans. Justice calls the Baroness a demon of pride in the Blackmarsh. Desire demons are not "spirits of healthy sexual expression". They are demons, that is how they act. They all are evil. I'm pretty sure that all the demons do talk about the fact that they do embody one trait or other. The Pride demon and sloth demon you meet in the Mage Origin's harrowing for example.

Justice was also not wrong for wanting to execute Velanna. Even if humans had taken her sister, she gruesomely murdered many innocent travelers because they were human. Being duped by the Architect did not really make any difference.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 novembre 2011 - 04:12 .

[Plaintiff]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The names of demons are not just spoken by the Chantry or by humans. Justice calls the Baroness a demon of pride in the Blackmarsh. Desire demons are not "spirits of healthy sexual expression". They are demons, that is how they act. They all are evil. I'm pretty sure that all the demons do talk about the fact that they do embody one trait or other. The Pride demon and sloth demon you meet in the Mage Origin's harrowing for example.

Justice was also not wrong for wanting to execute Velanna. Even if humans had taken her sister, she gruesomely murdered many innocent travelers because they were human. Being duped by the Architect did not really make any difference.

That still doesn't answer the rather pertinent question of why some traits seem to be exlcusively "demonic" while others are not. If the Bioware writers are asking me to just take this at face value, then... that's pretty crap, actually. I don't subscribe to the idea that having desires or pride is a bad thing, Virtues and sins are human concepts, and "virtues" like faith and kindness can be exploited just as easily as "sins" like desire and pride.

In fact, the more I think about it, this aspect of the Dragon Age lore just makes less and less sense. Aside from the spirits v. demons issue, the disitinctions between types of demons are purely cosmetic. Despite claiming to prey on different aspects of the human conciousness, all the demons operate in the same basic fashion; luring victims in with tempting promises of power/wealth/youth/knowledge/etc , which, if I'm understanding the terminology right, should be the exclusive realm of Desire.

And how come Justice takes over in the Fade, making Anders immune to demonic influence, but Wynne's Faith spirit offers no such protection? How is Justice immune in the firstplace? If he was so horribly corrupted by Ander's hatred (which typically manifests itself in the truly terrifying form of long-winded brochures that would put Jehovah's Witnesses to shame) then a Pride demon should have him cracking Hawke's head open in no time flat..

Modifié par Plaintiff, 26 novembre 2011 - 06:41 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What makes demons, demons is that they obsessively take things from. Pride, rage, hunger desire and sloth demons are all evil but that doesn't mean that Bioware is saying that hunger for example is inherently bad. After being perverted by Anders anger, Vengeance acted in a similarly single minded way, which is why Anders seems to think "I made my friend a demon" if you go rivalry with him at the end. Demons embody a concept to an extreme.

I think the idea is Different demons will appeal to the pride or desire or sloth of a mortal.

I also never got the impression that Wynne and Anders were joined by spirits in the same way. Wynne was inhabited by a spirit but wasn't possessed. Anders obviously was. That was the reason why Anders was protected and Wynne was not. It stands to reason that Justice, being a fade spirit would be immune to demonic persuasion because he was native to the fade and had to deal with them all the time. And he was the one in control. He hates demons almost as much as templars. I don't really think Justice is back to his old self in the Feynriel quest, but he has a goal similar to Hawke's at the time. His voice still has that angry reverberation. He doesn't always go on long rants. Sometime he just says something short like "You will never take another mage like you took him "Or you fiends will never touch another mage again."

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

What makes demons, demons is that they obsessively take things from. Pride, rage, hunger desire and sloth demons are all evil but that doesn't mean that Bioware is saying that hunger for example is inherently bad. After being perverted by Anders anger, Vengeance acted in a similarly single minded way, which is why Anders seems to think "I made my friend a demon" if you go rivalry with him at the end. Demons embody a concept to an extreme.

to be fair, Spirits also embody a concept to an extreme. That's the problem with the denizens of the Fade. They only see things in the light of what vice or virtue they embody and are unable to truly understand humanity's complex array of concepts held within the soul.

That's why I enjoyed Justice in Awakening. It was like an awakening for him too. He started to understand things about humanity that he wouldn't have been able to had he been in the Fade.

Like love.

I also never got the impression that Wynne and Anders were joined by spirits in the same way. Wynne was inhabited by a spirit but wasn't possessed. Anders obviously was.

 
probably due to how Wynne's spirit still had a presence within the Fade while Justice was sundered from the Fade entirely due to what happened in the Blackmarsh.

That was the reason why Anders was protected and Wynne was not. It stands to reason that Justice, being a fade spirit would be immune to demonic persuasion because he was native to the fade and had to deal with them all the time. And he was the one in control. He hates demons almost as much as templars. I don't really think Justice is back to his old self in the Feynriel quest, but he has a goal similar to Hawke's at the time. His voice still has that angry reverberation. He doesn't always go on long rants. Sometime he just says something short like "You will never take another mage like you took him "Or you fiends will never touch another mage again."

I like to think a few things regarding Justice. 

1) that Anders only thinks he corrupted Justice, but Justice is still Justice. Especially since he identifies himself as such in that very quest when demons know who they are, as seen with Caress, Hubris, and others.

2) that he's a spirit and demon intertwined as one new being within Anders.

3) the obvious. He's just a very confused demon.

pretty sure I also entertained some other notions on Justice

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 novembre 2011 - 07:33 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Justice is obviously corrupted, he's nothing like the character he was in Awakening. He might not think he is any different but he most certainly is.

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Justice is obviously corrupted, he's nothing like the character he was in Awakening. He might not think he is any different but he most certainly is.

I've said it on other threads before and I'll say it again: for some reason it's just hard for me to believe that Justice has turned into a demon when they are by their very nature self-serving and Justice is not.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well it's a grey area. If he is a demon, he's not a traditional one. He is definitely much more like one than before.

[AlexXIV]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Justice is obviously corrupted, he's nothing like the character he was in Awakening. He might not think he is any different but he most certainly is.

I've said it on other threads before and I'll say it again: for some reason it's just hard for me to believe that Justice has turned into a demon when they are by their very nature self-serving and Justice is not.

Well vengeance is self-serving. Question is whether he is doing it for justice sake or maybe vengeance. Hard to tell.

[RavenB]

Lynata wrote...

RavenB wrote...
Correlation doesn't prove causation. Their values were not necessarily shaped by their use of blood magic and could easily have been pre-existing.

I merely wanted to point out that what we know of history is the opposite of what was claimed in this thread, namely that blood mages were fond of sacrificing slaves because they were already used to giving less value to life - yet the truth is that Tevinter and blood magic popped up simultaneously. You can call it a coincidence, if you want, but that doesn't change that the assumed disconnect between blood magocracy and human sacrifices has no basis.

And yes, "power corrupts" is a very popular cliché, but it is anchored in human society and one of the biggest reasons for why our world is so screwed up. Regardless of how advanced mankind wishes to arrogantly see itself, the desire to dominate, the concept of the strong ruling over the weak, is still part of our socio-evolutionary heritage (just like our tendency to stick together and form groups) and it will continue to plague civilization for centuries if not millennia to come, and entire nations have succumbed to this in the past. It's just what we are, and what we need to be cautious of.

In fact, "power corrupts" is also what would make many a templar so prone of abusing their mage charges. Because for us humans, it's way too easy to be tempted into enjoying this stuff. We don't even have to look to Guantanamo for comparison, there's plenty military installations with folk who could not claim the excuse of suffering from some kind of war stress syndrome but where you still have "incidents". Same for the police force. Or common thugs on the streets. Gangs of teenagers who like to beat up someone who is easy prey. Politicians and managers who succumb to the influence and immunity their station can bring. The list goes on.

Whether it was a blood mage who established the norms isn't necessarily relevant. It doesn't prove the actions are brought on by the use of blood magic. That may have just been the value system that those few individuals with power favored. The magisters in Tevinter now are likely just a product of their environment, just as the Orlesian nobles and their "game" or the quickness to assassinate anyone in Antiva is a product of environmental learnings. All countries in Theda seem to have rather massive hang ups, but I wouldn't say any one peoples are inherently bad just because their social systems have shaped out this way. I would also doubt blood magic is any more addictive by nature than social ladder climbing or covert assassination attempts, but it has become a staple ingrained in Tevinter culture just as those other elements have in other countries. 

[RavenB]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

For all his talk of them being friends, Anders seems to just use Justice/Vengeance as an excuse for the things he wants to do. Even before DAII Anders expressed resentment towards the Circle, Chantry, and even said he'd like to rain fireballs on every Templar in creation.

Considering Justice encourages Anders to take a more aggressive stance in party banter, to which Anders laughs off at first, I really doubt this is true. Justice was all about defending what he saw as the oppressed and he clearly articulated that he saw mages as oppressed before they were even merged. It seemed more likely to me, from the interaction we actually saw between the two, that Justice was likely the one who talked Anders into fighting for the cause. Not the other way around. I think you're letting your bias against Anders cloud your objectivity on this. 

[Sith Grey Warden]

The real problem with Blood Magic comes when a blood mage can control another's mind. It has been stated that this is next to impossible to detect, so there really can be no law enforcement targeted specifically at those who abuse blood magic. The only option at that point is to ban blood magic.

As for demons, it is necessary to consider that a mage is risking more than just his or her own life. If the deal goes awry (which happens all too often, and even to experienced mages like Uldred) more people than just the mage die as the abomination proceeds to go on a rampage killing innocents in the process.