1287 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

My first playthrough, it was easy for me to make Anora queen over unhardened Alistair based on what I saw while playing the game. She did not betray me to Ser Cauthrien (I stood down) and she seemed straightforward, savvy and very competent when I spoke to her at Eamon's. Compared to Alistair, who was cowering in a corner wincing everytime anyone said his name, it was the easiest thing in the world to support her. Then, at the Landsmeet, she kept her end of the deal and came across as being WAY stronger than Alistair. Unless you know the ending, or unless you harden Alistair, it's not difficult to get the impression that Anora is the better choice. (I also liked the idea of rewarding a strong, independent woman who had been toiling away in her husband's shadow for so long.) That Alistair told me to choose her pretty much sealed the deal.

Now, of course, I have to really fight the urge to metagame, but I can make Anora solo queen with a fairly clean conscience most of the time, but only if Alistair is unhardened.

This was basically the take I had on my 1st playthrough, but I've come to see that perspective of an Anora rule as a metagame, too.  Once I read the books and thought about the lore some more, I now can put myself into the shoes of a Cousland who has grown up with the tale of both Maric the Saviour and the Hero of River Dane.  The latter goes down the toilet circa Ostagar, but the former is in ascendance.  It's not hard for me now to see my Couslands saying "the only thing that saves us is Maric's heir on the throne."  Whereas for my elves, it is not hard for them to conclude that things might not get better under Alistair, but a chance of that happening is better than the good likelihood under Anora that things will continue to go as they always have.

[SurelyForth]

Well, the implication at the Landsmeet is that supporting the Warden puts Alistair on the throne while Loghain will keep Anora (which is why Eamon says "Then it's decided, Alistair will take his father's throne" after you've executed Loghain, even if you've never even mentioned Alistair).

So I guess Anora, technically, does need the Warden, but only if the Warden wins (which s/he always does, even if it's only by force). My point is that the Warden can lose the vote without Anora's support so the Landsmeet is *for* her to remain queen with Loghain as regent, and only the ensuing battle changes the outcome.

My Couslands are always pretty down on the nobility of Ferelden by the time they find out about Alistair's parentage. Between Howe's betrayal, Loghain's betrayal. Cailan coming off as being sort of a fool, the Banns who abandon their lands/people to the darkspawn, and Eamon being so willing to cast Alistair aside for his own personal reasons (to say nothing of Maric's allowing Eamon to cast Alistair aside for his own personal reasons), they're no longer impressed by names or titles or the men and women who carry them.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 10 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

Well, the implication at the Landsmeet is that supporting the Warden puts Alistair on the throne while Loghain will keep Anora (which is why Eamon says "Then it's decided, Alistair will take his father's throne" after you've executed Loghain, even if you've never even mentioned Alistair).

So I guess Anora, technically, does need the Warden, but only if the Warden wins (which s/he always does, even if it's only by force). My point is that the Warden can lose the vote without Anora's support so the Landsmeet is *for* her to remain queen with Loghain as regent, and only the ensuing battle changes the outcome.

It just seemed to me to be about Loghain and the Warden.  I mean, Alistair can be the Warden's champion. Anora's support is major, yes, but it's because she's speaking out against her father, not that she's keeping the throne at that point.  Even the vote, everyone is saying they're either standing with the Warden or with Loghain.  Eamon as you know supports Alistair and tries to push that through, but given half a chance, Anora also tries to grab the throne back.  Alistair CAN get the throne without the Warden if he is the one who executes Loghain (and is not in love with a HNF or engaged to Anora), but Anora cannot get the throne without the Warden.

Edit: I want to correct myself here -- I think they actually say at the landsmeet that they are siding with the wardens, not the warden.  So it makes sense that Alistair can just take the throne at that point.  But the vote was still about Loghain, not Anora.  But . . . I'm good at missing the obvious, so I could be wrong.

Second edit: And there already was a civil war going on, even before reviving Eamon.  Not everyone stood behind Loghain at the start, even though there was a blight.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2010 - 07:41 .

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...

The ritual decision will be a hard one for my HNF. She's total white knight "don't even think of me as an assassin" type, so ordinarily I think she would say no way to the ritual. However, she'll be engaged to Alistair, knows he needs a strong queen to help him, and also believes herself to be the last of the Couslands. There's no way that she'd let Alistair risk dying because she believes Theirin blood is important to the throne, but if she risks it, then the Couslands die out and the throne is in jeopardy anyways, at least in the early years of Alistair's rule, while he learns the ins and outs of ruling a kingdom.

I think likely she'll let Alistair decide it (and we know how that turns out) because she'll be too conflicted to say yes or no one way or the other.

My HNF is not exactly a white knight- she's a cunning rogue build-wise, and that's how I've RPed her personality, too.  She'll definitely be bad cop to Alistair's good cop in their rule.  How many times will she say (or think), "Alistair my sweet, you just don't want to know..."  LOL  However, otherwise your perspective was the same I took.  A royalist through and through, and the idea that she got a Theirin on the throne but then allowed a threat to hang over it by agreeing to Morrigan's ritual is terrible for her to live with.  If she also isn't able to find some way to give him an heir, she will be forced into some terrible compromises again.  Abdicate and allow him to marry someone else?  Try to get pregnant by a non-Warden and sneak it past the populace?  Adopt an heir and accept that there will be challenges?  A tough one.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 février 2010 - 07:14 .

[Sialater]

There's also the ever slimy blood magic IVF.

[Addai]

Sialater wrote...

There's also the ever slimy blood magic IVF.

Yes, she'll be thumbing through her rolodex of Circle Tower and Mage's Collective contacts (who conveniently owe her a lot of favors) to pull a rabbit out of a hat.  That's Plan A.  I was talking about Plan B, if that still doesn't work.  David Gaider has said a duo-Warden baby isn't possible "by any natural means."  But who said it has to be natural. 

[Sialater]

Exactly. My Cousland will be pestering the Circle Tower and Avernus for quite some time.

[Sandtigress]

They managed to make a potion to keep Maric free of taint (in the Calling). I'm sure even the normal Circle, without resorting to blood mage, could cook up something. And failing that, I'm sure there's Avernus for several of us. :-P

[Addai]

It must happen, because the Maker owes Alistair a chance to walk around with a toddler piggy-backed on his shoulders. Now I'm going to make myself verklempt.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 février 2010 - 08:12 .

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

It must happen, because the Maker owes Alistair a chance to walk around with a toddler piggy-backed on his shoulders. Now I'm going to make myself verklempt.

When Alistair and I rebuild the Wardens together, we get an orange and white kitten who rides on his shoulder (and sleeps on my mabari), but a toddler would be infinitely more squee-worthy (and I'm someone who thinks a Cousland/Theirin baby would spell doom for their continued happiness).

I always want to smack Wynne when she teases Alistair about how babies are made, even though she probably doesn't know that he and the warden can't procreate. It still bugs me.

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

It must happen, because the Maker owes Alistair a chance to walk around with a toddler piggy-backed on his shoulders. Now I'm going to make myself verklempt.

lol *SQUUUEEEE*  That is SUCH a cute image. Now we need someone who can draw to do so!

[Sialater]

In light of the scant chance of reproduction, that particular dialogue does now seem very cruel.

[galesong1234]

kbach36 wrote...

I just finished playing through with my elf mage and had her romance Zevran and avoided Alistair like the plague.  That is so so hard to do.  I had to be very careful of all my responses, I didn't want to say anything mean or hateful to him, but anything too nice and he would flip over to romance mode. But I finally made it all the way to the end. I hardened Alistair and put him on the throne alone (can't stand that...that woman, Anora)  and had Alistair at 100-Friendly.  I have to say that the conversation with hardened Alistair after you make him King was much more satisfying that when he comes stomping in to break up with your character. He sounds happy about being King and is looking forward to it, thanks you for all that you have done for him and basically says that he would be a better King if you stick around to help him.  It would be nice if you could get that when you romance him, after of course, he  agrees that he was foolish to try and leave you..  He also thanks you again at the city gates and talks about what an honor it has been fighting with you.

Zevran, on the other hand, once you get the earring, there isn't much talk left.  Even at the final battle, there is something lacking.  I took Morrigan's deal, I will have to sacrifice myself to see if Zev has anything  different to say.  Does anyone know?

Have  you tried just staying friends with Al, and what where your  thoughts.

Just a thought on sacrifising yourself if you're in a romance with Zev.  You get a dialogue box that says basically, that he goes back to the crows, is approached by many offers of love, but chooses to never love again. Or something like that. Basically, your his last and only love.

[Sialater]

Neither one of them do well after you suicide the archdemon.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

Neither one of them do well after you suicide the archdemon.

Ending spoiler ahead:

Putting it lightly.  Well, Alistair does ok if you make him king, but all the romance partners are destroyed if you sacrifice yourself.  I don't know the worst ending -- Leliana killing herself, Zevran becoming nothing but a cold, ruthless shell, or Alistair just disappearing if not king.  Ugh.  Doing the sacrifice yourself feels right until you get to the slide about the romance partner.

Edit: Well, I find the Zevran ending the most heartbreaking, but that is probably personal bias.  Still, everything that was good about him just died along with the warden.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 février 2010 - 05:34 .

[Sialater]

Not to mention your poor dog.

[ejoslin]

Poor dog You never do find out what happens to him.

[Sandtigress]

"Luckily" my only two rounds with the ultimate sacrifice have been after being broken up with, so Alistair did alright for himself afterwards. Its a good thing he'll go for Morrigan's offer with my HNF, because there's no way she'd let the King of Ferelden die if she could help it.

[kbach36]

Sandtigress wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It must happen, because the Maker owes Alistair a chance to walk around with a toddler piggy-backed on his shoulders. Now I'm going to make myself verklempt.

lol *SQUUUEEEE*  That is SUCH a cute image. Now we need someone who can draw to do so!

Definately squee worthy.  What an endearing image.  Alistair as a father. *sigh*

Unfortunately it seems almost impossible to have a happy ending, unless -maybe you don't romance anybody at all.ever. And then do the sacrifice yourself, and though they lose a good friend, they can go on and live their lives. But I suppose then you would have to play your character as one with psychic intuition, and know that nothing good can come of a romance.

Edited for spelling.

Modifié par kbach36, 11 février 2010 - 06:00 .

[ejoslin]

One thing to consider -- if Alistair is flagged "in love" or "still in love" (which can be buggy and sometimes you don't have that flag when you should) he will NOT turn down the ritual. If there's a chance he can save the Warden by doing it, he will. The Warden is the one who has to back out of it or give him an out -- so everything that happens as a result of that is the warden's fault! Depressing, no?

To me, even sadder than the slide actually is Zevran's face at the funeral. I've heard Leliana's is just as bad (haven't seen it). Talk about destroyed.

Edit: And Zevran turns out badly even if not romanced if the warden sacrifices themselves.  The warden, whether as friend or lover, is the one person that Zevran ever trusts.  The friend ending, the only difference is that when he kills his way to become leader of the crows, he's not sure if that was a good or a bad thing.  Not as sad as "despite frequent offers of bed partners, he never loved again," but still, pretty destroyed.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 février 2010 - 06:02 .

[kbach36]

Just knowing how badly everyone else reacts to your sacrifice almost makes up for having Alistair sleep with Morrigan.



It would be nice if after you mentioned a way for both of you to survive, Alistair (if in love) would insist on doing it even if you tried to back out.

[Sandtigress]

Heh, yes, the Alistair romance can get bugged, leading to the reincarnation of my first character, my Dalish elf, since I realized I was going to have to do a lot of stuff over to do it unbugged, and I wanted to do the whole thing right from the start. He will turn down the ritual himself if you're in friend mode - hence how we caught the bug. Its not too hard to pretend that he still has feelings for her even in "friend" mode though, and that led to a pretty touching ending, with the ultimate sacrifice. The biggest problem with that ending, in my case, was that I didn't realize how much hardening Alistair affects his ruling abilities, and how little it otherwise affects his personality. That was a big reason for the re-do.



Zev's ending, even as a friend, is definitely sad with the ultimate sacrifice. The ending states he doesn't know if he "won or lost" with becoming leader of the Crows, and I think he really knows that he lost out on what he could have had - a real friendship with a person who cared for him as him. In that sense, he's not that different from Alistair and the Warden.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Poor dog You never do find out what happens to him.

If my HNF would have sacrificed herself, she was going to ask her beloved Ulfilas to guard Alistair from then on.  It was thinking about this scene- leaving Alistair at the gates and leaving her mabari behind to guard him and become king's hound- that got me so choked up as I thought about it.  I just didn't have the guts.  So, my Cousland girl lost her nerve, too, and buckled under Morrigan's temptress ways.

I do wish you could interact with Dog at post-coronation!  That's a horrible gap!  I want to send him to find something interesting and he comes back with Alistair's crown or something.

[SurelyForth]

Zev's endings, as a friend or lover, is why I always keep him around with my PC, either to help with the Wardens or as my partner in dirty work.

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

I do wish you could interact with Dog at post-coronation!  That's a horrible gap!  I want to send him to find something interesting and he comes back with Alistair's crown or something.

With Alistair in tow, chasing after him.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]   "Hey you mangy....bring that back!!!"

Modifié par Sandtigress, 11 février 2010 - 06:21 .