1287 réponses à ce sujet

[kbach36]

Congrats. Isn't it a great feeling to finally get him to see your point of view.

I also want a real life F5/F9.

Modifié par kbach36, 15 février 2010 - 04:42 .

[stobie]

I refused to harden him - I like him as he is. And I think the whole idea of 'toughening up' in life is cheap & too easy. I think it's much harder to stay yourself. None of the endings made me very happy - I settled on talking him into sex with Morrigan, with Anora as Queen. (that was fine with me - she wanted to rule, he didn't) But I would have liked a better option, for sure.

[Sandtigress]

We've had this discussion before, but I've come around to realizing that hardening Alistair is for the best. He's got so much more confidence in the abilities and talents he already has - that's the only real difference. Yeah, you can get him to do things like take up a mistress or participate in the threesome, but I still see those things as being Alistair's personality, hardened or not.



My girls have always attempted to get him to stand up for himself and stop letting others make his decisions for him - he'll never be happy if he can't decide things for himself. To me, though the mechanics are terrible for it, hardening is just the natural outcome of them pushing him to stand up for himself.

[Addai]

stobie wrote...

I refused to harden him - I like him as he is. And I think the whole idea of 'toughening up' in life is cheap & too easy. I think it's much harder to stay yourself. None of the endings made me very happy - I settled on talking him into sex with Morrigan, with Anora as Queen. (that was fine with me - she wanted to rule, he didn't) But I would have liked a better option, for sure.

Hardened Alistair IS still as he is, just brings out a different side of him.  I see it as helping to right a wrong that was done to him in his childhood.

There are no syrupy happy endings, it's true.  Personally I'll never do another Anora-rules-alone game.  Seeing him forswear the throne for himself and his heirs was too heartbreaking, especially if you've read the books and know what it took to win it.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 février 2010 - 05:51 .

[Ceridraen]

I'll take 'syrupy and happy' over cynical any day.

[Addai]

He's not cynical. He's still the same noble do-gooder hardened as unhardened. He is just willing to stand up for himself. That's supposed to be a bad thing? His childhood left him with no self-esteem and little backbone.

[ejoslin]

Hardened Alistair is far more confident and feels better about himself -- he's able to lose a lot of his insecurities once he's able to quit worrying about pleasing everyone. He certainly seems to like himself a lot better at the landsmeet if he's hardened.

Edit: It's not that he basically changes -- it's that he and his wants and needs become a priority to him and he sees a duty to himself as well.  Not hardening him, he just keeps thinking what he wants and needs is completely unimportant.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 février 2010 - 12:53 .

[SurelyForth]

If you think that hardening him changes him for the worse, you should harden him and make him king at the Landsmeet as a friend. He is so ridiculously adorable afterwards, very nervous/excited/optimistic. It really underscores how little the hardening affects his personality yet completely changes his self-perception. Also? Adorable. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 15 février 2010 - 01:38 .

[Sandtigress]

SurelyForth wrote...

If you think that hardening him changes him for the worse, you should harden him and make him king at the Landsmeet as a friend. He is so ridiculously adorable afterwards, very nervous/excited/optimistic. It really underscores how little the hardening affects his personality yet completely changes his self-perception. Also? Adorable. 

I need to try this, with my dwarf, perhaps.  lol I'm going to have to put her on Casual, I think.  She would want to go to Orzammar first, for RP purposes, but a level 7 character just really has no place in Orzammar - I can't get past Aeducan Thaig, and that's just sad.  

[RavenousBear]

How far along the romance with Alistair must you be to get the dialogue of him dumping you after the Landsmeet (not hardened, with Anora as his queen)? I am going to do his personal quest near the end of the game to explore my options and see what happens.

[kbach36]

SurelyForth wrote...

If you think that hardening him changes him for the worse, you should harden him and make him king at the Landsmeet as a friend. He is so ridiculously adorable afterwards, very nervous/excited/optimistic. It really underscores how little the hardening affects his personality yet completely changes his self-perception. Also? Adorable. 

I will second this.  Putting Alistair on the throne without ever romancing him shows how he has changed, yet not changed and is actually willing to take on the role as King.  His conversations after Landsmeet made it worth all the hard work and self constraint of my pc to not romance him.

[kbach36]

Caak7i wrote...

How far along the romance with Alistair must you be to get the dialogue of him dumping you after the Landsmeet (not hardened, with Anora as his queen)? I am going to do his personal quest near the end of the game to explore my options and see what happens.

I don't think it really matters, as long as you have enough time for him to think about what you said and then he instigates another convo with you saying that he has  thought about what you said and as long as you don't say anything to contradict your original statement he will be hardened.

[SuperMedbh]

This is the first playthrough in which I hardened Alistair (I still laugh at that turn of phrase ), and I have to agree-- he's actually even sexier hardened than not. Just enough assertion, like when he talks about Anora and says "People who think they have all the answers are the problem with this world". He also seems much more in charge later on at the gathering of the armies. But he's still the same kindhearted Alistair with enough of the goof thrown in to be cute.



I do think the response choices to harden him are a bit contrived, though. "Everyone is out for themselves" is a bit harsh, if you ask me. Change that to "a lot of people are just out for themselves", and I'd buy it. Then again, maybe I'm just a softie, too

[RavenousBear]

kbach36 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

How far along the romance with Alistair must you be to get the dialogue of him dumping you after the Landsmeet (not hardened, with Anora as his queen)? I am going to do his personal quest near the end of the game to explore my options and see what happens.

I don't think it really matters, as long as you have enough time for him to think about what you said and then he instigates another convo with you saying that he has  thought about what you said and as long as you don't say anything to contradict your original statement he will be hardened.

Alright, so I could stall the romance at a certain level (like at moderate approval with the rose) and still get all the options? Interesting, I wonder if the game will treat this type of romance like the full romances up to maximum approval for the upcoming expansion and if Alistair still cares about your pc. 

[sylvanaerie]

I like the ending with my Dalish elf best. Hardened Alistair but didn't put him on the throne, did the ritual with Morrigan and chose (after getting her to boon land to the Dalish) for my girl to go help the wardens (And I got an epilogue card saying Alistair went with me, much relieved to NOT be in the courts as king)> I get the feeling as long as he was with his lady love, Alistair was pretty happy with any choice you made. Plus I got to keep him all to myself and not share him with a queen! Just had to put up with witch-skank having him for one night.

[maxernst]

I'm just playing through this section for the first time and I think I'm going to have Anora rule alone, because I think she raises a fair point about the Grey Wardens. There is a potential conflict of interest in trying to be both King and Grey Warden. It's better if the Grey Wardens are not seen as meddling in politics, beyond what is necessary to oppose the blight.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Since I rarely, if ever, put Alistair on the throne, the choice to harden him or not depends on the nature of the character I play. Preferably, unhardened. Even hardened, he's not terribly excited about being king, but is more willing to do it as a means to get things done the way he wants to. The whole king-part is about the only area I see him gaining confidence, otherwise, little real change. Even hardened, putting him on the throne seems like condemning him to another guilded cage, making him something because of who his daddy is, as opposed to what he's always enjoyed doing, doesn't feel right.



Being a monarch, a throne, ahrdly rewarding or pleasant. And, after the whole debacle in orzammar, as well as Riordan's experience with the Wardens of Anderfels, and the tragedy of Soldier's peak, makes me even more against the idea of getting Wardens entangled in politics. Give the throne to Anora. As Zevy says: "Kings make good business for assassins, whether as client or target" or something to that effect. And I like the idea of having the proverbial gun to Anora's head.



The issue of hardening him, I wish, was handled better. I would have prefered a more realistic, gradual change as the result of a few experiences and dialogues. The option given would be pretty out of character for the majority of playthroughs I've done so far.



Since I usually put Anora on the throne, hardening him seems pointless, and hasn't really improved his character much in my game plays.

[Addai]

I just can't do the Anora-rules-alone ending. I did that the 1st time, but I had a pit in my stomach seeing Alistair swear off the throne for himself and his heirs. It's his by right. If you read the novels, you see how many people died to save the Calenhad throne, and then just to have it handed over and by one of Alistair's friends no less? If Maric directed Alistair to be hidden away so that he wouldn't have to bear his legacy, then it's not really a wrong that he was, but otherwise the only reason Alistair is not in the succession is because people have wronged him all his life by making him deny who he is. And hardened, he does want to be king- that tells me that when he has the voice to speak up for himself, it's what he wants. Not that he isn't torn, of course.

There will be other Grey Wardens. There is only one heir of Maric. That we know of.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 février 2010 - 06:20 .

[SurelyForth]

The thing is, he is genuinely relieved to not be king if he's unhardened. He abdicates his right to the throne without hesitation and then will laugh about how it was easiest oath he ever took. I think that, if you put him on the throne while he's unhardened, you're just another person who ignores what he wants, even if you're doing it for the right reasons.  

You could argue that he has a duty as Maric's son, and he will admit that, but he's not a wonderful king if unhardened, and Anora isn't a terrible queen.  

In my playthroughs, I've only made him king while unhardened once, when he demanded the throne to bring Loghain to justice. If I harden him, he's always king (unless I'm testing dialogue, but those endings never stick). 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 15 février 2010 - 06:55 .

[Addai]

Well there again, I'm going from the premise that the "hardened" Alistair is the A. as he should be. Romance-wise, my PCs respect him more when he's standing up for himself, too. His lily-liveredness at the Landsmeet otherwise is pretty pathetic. It's the difference between being a friend with "tough love" or just confirming his dim view of himself, which isn't much of a friend at all in my book.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

Well there again, I'm going from the premise that the "hardened" Alistair is the A. as he should be. Romance-wise, my PCs respect him more when he's standing up for himself, too. His lily-liveredness at the Landsmeet otherwise is pretty pathetic. It's the difference between being a friend with "tough love" or just confirming his dim view of himself, which isn't much of a friend at all in my book.

That is true, all of it, and I prefer hardened Alistair myself. I would argue that the "tough love" option is so discordant that, unless you metagame that part, you don't feel like you're being a friend when he really needs one. And really, you're not so much confirming his dim view of himself as much as you're being overprotective of him.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 15 février 2010 - 07:10 .

[Addai]

I will generally pick the reply line which says "don't let me influence you" (in his talk with you about it later), and to me that puts it on the footing of peers speaking to each other with give and take. I don't see telling a friend "you need to stand up for yourself" more as being overprotective. Then again, I guess I see being protective as part of what a friend does.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

I just can't do the Anora-rules-alone ending. I did that the 1st time, but I had a pit in my stomach seeing Alistair swear off the throne for himself and his heirs. It's his by right. If you read the novels, you see how many people died to save the Calenhad throne, and then just to have it handed over and by one of Alistair's friends no less? If Maric directed Alistair to be hidden away so that he wouldn't have to bear his legacy, then it's not really a wrong that he was, but otherwise the only reason Alistair is not in the succession is because people have wronged him all his life by making him deny who he is. And hardened, he does want to be king- that tells me that when he has the voice to speak up for himself, it's what he wants. Not that he isn't torn, of course.

There will be other Grey Wardens. There is only one heir of Maric. That we know of.

I've read the Stolen throne. The matter of a Therin on the throne was important mostly to the nobility, as they tend to be more obsessive with the bloodline thing. And it was a Therin Queen who was stirring up the rebellion. But beyond that, the important thing wasn't, in the large picture, that a Therin reclaim the throne, but the Orlesians get kicked out and an eligible Ferelden be put on the throne. For the Ferelden massess, whether a Therin or Arl Joe Schmoe took it, was moot, so long as the Orlesians are gone and Ferelden independant again, who does the job is irrelevant.

Arl Eamon thinks it important because he is a pretty conservative, traditionalist noble. But beyond the nobility, and even amongst some nobles, it's not an issue. They just want someone to stop the civil war, restore order, and get rid of Loghain. The Therin bloodline is pretty much doomed anyway, sooner or later. Alistair, no matter who is queen, is going to have a difficult job having an heir, and with the taint, well...you just don't know what is going to result from such a kid. Alistair's reign would be a pretty short one, given the taint. If he's lucky, he might have 30 years, though 30 is the maximum, it seems, judging by what Gaider once said, it could be half that.

Whether the Therin line dies now or later, it seems inevitable, unless a non-Tainted bastard of Maric, or Cailan, or a distant cousin/relative in Ferelden can be found. I new dynasty will have to take over eventually. Which can be a good thing. New dynasties brought change, for better or worse, in history, and Ferelden needs a major internal political catalyst for change, just as the dwarves needed a rather seedy bastard like Bhelen to force change.  Anora is a ****, but she's a competant ****, and ultimately, does a fine enough job on her own. In fact, I rather prefer the idea of her on the throne: commoner blood, strong female who is cunning enough to succeed.

Since hardening really only effects the king descision and consequences as such, I see no difference in his out-of landsmeet personality. Thus, since I really don't like making him the king, hardening is pointless for me. If there was a noticable difference beyond the build  up to Landsmeet, I might consider it. But unhardened, he is overjoyed to forswear the throne for himself and his unlikely heirs, and his relief is rather pleasant. He gets to be what he truly loves: a Grey Warden hero. At the final battle, if you refused Morrigan, he tells you, right before he goes to take the death blow, even hardened, he really didn't want to be king, Anora is a better ruler. And that as king, the best thing he could do is die for the country.

For me, that scene made me think that even hardened, he really doesn't want to be king. Even hardened, it seems he is more willing to accept the idea of king, because hardened, he sees an opportunity to turn yet another stolen decision about his life to his own advantage and personal desires. But as far as what his heart's desire is? He wants to be a hero, to make a difference, do something good for alot of people. Hardened, he comes to think that maybe, he can do it as king.

All I can say is, from my own point of view, if I was in his shoes, I sure as hell would be looking for any way out of a fate people put on me because who my old man was. I want to be me as me, not me as the child of so-and so. Anora as queen, for me, is the happiest solution.

[Addai]

I don't recall at all that it was the nobility who were roused by the idea of a Theirin heir in The Stolen Throne. On the contrary, the nobles were as lily-livered and backstabbing as they are in the game.  For the most part they were cooperating with the Orlesians.  It was the common people who were roused by the Rebel Queen and Prince Maric. Yes, she was pushing the rebellion, but if she hadn't then Ferelden would still be an Orlesian backwater suffering terrible oppression. The Calenhad legend and the Theirin blood matter. You can even see it in-game. Loghain and Anora are ruthless, self-serving, and conniving despite being in positions of power. Alistair is noble and self-sacrificing despite having no advantage. He's a half-commoner who comes to power despite that, so on that score he and Anora are even.

As for what he says when he's about to die, I would have to put that down to convincing himself of what he needs to do and reassuring himself that it will turn out ok for the country. He clearly does not think Anora should rule when he gives his opinion pre-Landsmeet, when hardened.

Epilogue-wise we know that Anora is a capable ruler, but in-game we can only take her word for it that she's been running things. She has been on the throne with a Theirin leading. Her performance under her father's regency does not exactly show well for her.

Modifié par Addai67, 16 février 2010 - 12:44 .

[Walter Black]

I have a few Alistair romance questions regarding my current playthrough, and one I've been contimpating. My female Mage is in a romance with Alistair, if I dump him proir to the last battle, forego the Dark Ritual and have him in my group when facing the Archedemon, does he still sacrifice himself instead?

Also, if my female Human Noble romances him and makes king, but spares Logain to kill the Archedemon(again, no DR), can she still become queen, or does Alistair dump her when he leaves the group?

Modifié par Walter Black, 16 février 2010 - 03:24 .