1287 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

galesong1234 wrote...
See your point.  Yes, he is very duty boud.  Or, should we say that unhardened Alistair is duty bound, while hardened Alistair is willing to risk more!?!

Even though Eamon plans to put Alistair on the thrown.  Do we have any right as Anora is still queen? Unless we take on the fact she is not of royal blood, and only could claim the throne through marriage. With that in mind, Couslands are of noble blood and would have more claim than Anora. So here we stand, Alistair should rule due to being Maric's son. Female Cousland is of noble blood as well and is in love with Alistair.

The kicker is that they are both Grey Wardens and there is no guarantee that Alistair could even provide an heir with the taint and a wife who is doesn't have the taint. I guess to me that makes for a crappy excuse to be dumped - on the assumption that he might be able to produce an heir.

Well, hardened and unhardened will both marry the PC with the Persuade check, so it's not that difficult. Hardened Alistair will keep the PC as his mistress, and that's what I'm going for this playthrough since I don't see my HNF marrying at all.

My reasoning for putting Alistair on the throne is mostly because my HNF's father fought with Maric. There are also doubts as to Anora's ability to bear a child based on what was found in RtO, so an heir through the Mac Tir line isn't guaranteed either. If she doesn't provide an heir, naming a successor is no guarantee that there won't be another civil war. The safest thing is to put a Theirin on the throne and hope for the best. If Alistair still can't produce an heir and does name a successor, it's likely to be more well-received simply because he's a Theirin. My reasoning for not putting my HNF on the throne is not only because the chances of providing an heir are impossible, but also two Grey Wardens with shortened life spans aren't the best choice either.

edit: If none of that made any sense, it's because I'm really tired.

Modifié par Monica21, 17 février 2010 - 07:48 .

[sylvanaerie]

SurelyForth wrote...

Inappropriate juxtopositions of dialogue/situations are one of my favorite things about this game. Like when I get the Oghren-select belch as he's hacking at Branka, or Alistair and Wynne talking about her son being taken away from her while he blithely stabs away at some thaig crawlers.

The last time I let Alistair duel Loghain, he launched into it with his line about wanting to stop for lunch. The Landsmeet was so quiet, and his voice was so loud, it made me laugh for almost a full minute straight. I imagined Brand Cousland spent the rest of the duel in full-on facepalm, praying that his fighting skills made up for his lack of decorum.

OMG you're killing me!  My favorite was when I got the "I have grown to care for you talk" right in the middle of killing undead beasties in Redcliffe.  Real romantic, Al...

[maxernst]

Monica21 wrote...

That's one thing that I find really interesting about Alistair. He falls hard and fast, but if you choose the right dialogue options, he seems to be much smarter about the relationship than the PC sometimes. I'm not sure if it's because I have Dialogue Tweaks and the Alistair Dialogue Patch, but choosing "I don't know" and "I don't know if we have a future together" led to a very interesting response.

Yes...despite the fact many people think he's dumb, he's thinking about the relationship and what the consequences of becoming King would be long before Landsmeet.  If you ask where he sees this going and choose the "only thing that matters is that we're together option", you get a speech about duty and a -10 disapproval that should give fair warning of what's coming at Landsmeet.

I still think the response of the unhardened Alistair has far more to do with you're betraying him by saving Loghain than giving up the claim to the throne.  He actually said he was happy to renounce the throne when I made Anora Queen...but Loghain was dead at that point.

[nos_astra]

galesong1234 wrote...
Do we have any right as Anora is still queen?

This is an interesting point and maybe a little off-topic but still enlightening.

Somewhere on the forum I read a discussion about the difference between queen-consort and princess-consort. From the viewpoint provided there Anora has to be confirmed and announced queen regnant by the Landsmeet before she's anything but the Kings's widow who used to wield the power during his lifetime because this was the silent agreement backstage. I don't think Anora was more than queen-consort herself.

So when it comes to the Landsmeet you can easily say that Anora's claim probably isn't any stronger than the claim of Maric's illegitimate son.

Considering that her regent (something completely unnecessary if she ould be a real queen) is accused of treason it's not so suprising that you're free to replace her with the politcically completely inexperienced Alistair. The smartest choice for a HNF would be to marry him to Anora or marry him herself. If you provide a strong ruler the question of succession may go over very smooth even without an heir.

Modifié par klarabella, 17 février 2010 - 03:22 .

[maxernst]

By traditional succession laws, neither have much of a claim, really.

[nos_astra]

Probably no one has at this point.

[Monica21]

maxernst wrote...

By traditional succession laws, neither have much of a claim, really.

True, but when you have the last of a line, even if he is a bastard, how much does tradition really matter?

[maxernst]

Monica21 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

By traditional succession laws, neither have much of a claim, really.

True, but when you have the last of a line, even if he is a bastard, how much does tradition really matter?

It depends a lot on the country's traditions.  If they have a very strong "divine right of kings" tradition--Pharaonic Egypt would be a good example--yes, a bastard would have the best claim.  But much like the situation in Orzammar, it seems as though the succession line isn't automatic in Ferelden--the Landsmeet has a say in it.  To me, that suggests a situation much more like the Holy Roman Empire, where they'd be far more likely to pick another strong noble. 

What really is unrealistic about this situation is that there's no indication of Callan's preference as heir.  It's just inconceivable that a king could ride into battle without stating who his successor would be.  In a stituation where the assembly has a say in the choice of king, it's very unlikely that they would choose a bastard who is a total unknown, unless Callan had indicated him as heir apparent.  Loghain (if he's alive), Anora (especially if Loghain is dead), Fergus and the PC could probably garner as much support or more.  Eammon would have to be very, very influential to have the power to put Alistair on the throne.

[Divine Justinia V]

I know this is OT, but where does it say if they adore you or if they're just friends? I see the little bar thing at the bottom... but it doesn't say if we're friends or lovers.

[ejoslin]

See, that's one thing I don't get -- that Alistair names Anora his heir even if he's engaged to the PC. She's a Cousland and may have a stronger claim on the throne than Anora. It would make more sense, and give him a better chance of survival, if he were to NOT name her heir (because you know she has her loyal supporters as well).

[Addai]

True, about Cailan's oversight on naming an heir. He should have had Alistair recognized and put into the succession. Superficially you could think that he was young and had an invincibility complex, but Ostagar (edit: Return to Ostagar, that is) suggests that was not the case, so why this oversight? Unless he did name a successor somewhere, just not in public, and we're missing that document?

Modifié par Addai67, 17 février 2010 - 06:18 .

[maxernst]

Anora's claim really rests primarily on her competence and familiarity, rather than blood (though she is the daughter of Teryn).

[Divine Justinia V]

... anyone? D:

[Addai]

VittoriaLandis wrote...

... anyone? D:

Are you on PC or console?  On PC, there is a bar beneath each character in the Inventory screen.  It shows the approval level and whether Neutral, Friendly, Adore, Love etc.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 février 2010 - 06:21 .

[Divine Justinia V]

I'm on the 360. Does it only show for PC?

[SurelyForth]

VittoriaLandis wrote...

I know this is OT, but where does it say if they adore you or if they're just friends? I see the little bar thing at the bottom... but it doesn't say if we're friends or lovers.

If you are on a console, it doesn't say what your status is. When you talk to him, his automatic response should clue you in. "Something on your mind" is the default post-neutral greeting, while "Yes?", "Your desire is my command" and "Something you need, my dear?" are ones that indicate you've turned the relationship on.

I think Alistair names Anora his heir because the PC has just as much a chance of biting it as he does and because it's the most expedient route to take- and even hardened he realizes that she's a good queen.

[Divine Justinia V]

Thank you

[Sandtigress]

maxernst wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

By traditional succession laws, neither have much of a claim, really.

True, but when you have the last of a line, even if he is a bastard, how much does tradition really matter?

It depends a lot on the country's traditions.  If they have a very strong "divine right of kings" tradition--Pharaonic Egypt would be a good example--yes, a bastard would have the best claim.  But much like the situation in Orzammar, it seems as though the succession line isn't automatic in Ferelden--the Landsmeet has a say in it.  To me, that suggests a situation much more like the Holy Roman Empire, where they'd be far more likely to pick another strong noble. 

What really is unrealistic about this situation is that there's no indication of Callan's preference as heir.  It's just inconceivable that a king could ride into battle without stating who his successor would be.  In a stituation where the assembly has a say in the choice of king, it's very unlikely that they would choose a bastard who is a total unknown, unless Callan had indicated him as heir apparent.  Loghain (if he's alive), Anora (especially if Loghain is dead), Fergus and the PC could probably garner as much support or more.  Eammon would have to be very, very influential to have the power to put Alistair on the throne.

I think Eamon played heavily on the people's love for Maric and the relatively recent Orlesian occupation.  The Thierin name became the rallying point of the re-taking of the throne and further cemented the name with the position.  If you've done Warden Keep, you know that Sophia Dryden was strongly in the running for the throne in her day - obviously not a Theirin, and a woman like Anora, so it seems Ferelden would follow a queen not of the blood.  But now, because Ferelden was so recently almost lost to foreign occupation, and it was the Theirins who kept the battle going and eventually won the throne back and beat away the invaders, the name has become more synonymous with the throne than it was before.

With that, and knowing that there is one Theirin remaining, legitimate or not, it would be easy to use him as a rallying point at another time when Ferelden's destruction seems imminent.  Anora's only claim to the throne is that her husband was king.  I think the fact that she named a regent is rather unusual - almost as if she were a consort as well and not actually queen in her own right.  This move might have been to play on her father's hero status to shore up her claim, or it might have been actually necessary.  We know that Moira the Rebel Queen was considered rightful Queen though, so its not a gender thing for the throne.

Maybe Cailan simply assumed that Anora would be his heir.  Its possible he didn't think that far ahead, though I kind of doubt this too.  Despite their initial appearances, Theirin men are more canny than they seem - we certainly see this in Alistair and Maric so I see no real reason to think it skipped Cailan and as many have said, his specific request that his brother be sent to the Tower of Ishal, away from the main fighting, seems to speak of some concern for the inheritance of the throne.

[CalJones]

Was Cailan aware that Alistair was his bastard half-brother, though? (I haven't read the books so this is a genuine question on my part).



I'm also not sure that Anora named a regent - as far as I could gather, Loghain declared himself regent and she acquiesced.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

See, that's one thing I don't get -- that Alistair names Anora his heir even if he's engaged to the PC. She's a Cousland and may have a stronger claim on the throne than Anora. It would make more sense, and give him a better chance of survival, if he were to NOT name her heir (because you know she has her loyal supporters as well).

This does bother me.  In general, I think more should be made of the fact that the noble human PC is a Cousland when you get to the Landsmeet.  I guess that in-game they did not want to complicate the Landsmeet scene and make it unbalanced for other sorts of PC wardens.  In-story the rationale likely is that Howe's accusations against the Couslands nullify their influence until Howe himself is discredited and the Warden exonerated.  As for naming Anora his successor rather than his future bride, it is a bit of a slap.  If the Landsmeet accepts the HNF warden as queen consort, they could be asked to accept her as queen regnant.

[nos_astra]

Hm, it seems reasonable to me to name someone who doesn't go into battle.

[maxernst]

I was also puzzled by Anora having a regent, since ordinarily you have a regent only when the reigning monarch is under age. My thinking on this is perhaps without the ratification of a Landsmeet you can't be considered reigning monarch, so Loghain as regent is merely acting/interim monarch and Anora Queen consort. But this is just speculation on my part.

[Sandtigress]

CalJones wrote...

Was Cailan aware that Alistair was his bastard half-brother, though? (I haven't read the books so this is a genuine question on my part).

I'm also not sure that Anora named a regent - as far as I could gather, Loghain declared himself regent and she acquiesced.

Cailan did know about Alistair - Anora says as much when you talk to her after rescuing her, and before Landsmeet.  She will comment on Alistair's ruling abilities, to which you can say "You seem to know a lot about Alistair."  She'll tell you then that Cailan knew about him.

[SurelyForth]

I honestly don't think it would even occur to Alistair to name the PC as his heir. If it's not because of the imminent danger they are both in, or just the whole Grey Warden coup thing, then I think it has everything to do with Anora being the obvious choice. She was groomed to be queen, she's well-liked and she's capable. Until the PC says that she'll rule with Alistair, he has no clue that she would even want to be queen and even then he's not sure what her angle is until after the Landsmeet.

[Sandtigress]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

See, that's one thing I don't get -- that Alistair names Anora his heir even if he's engaged to the PC. She's a Cousland and may have a stronger claim on the throne than Anora. It would make more sense, and give him a better chance of survival, if he were to NOT name her heir (because you know she has her loyal supporters as well).

This does bother me.  In general, I think more should be made of the fact that the noble human PC is a Cousland when you get to the Landsmeet.  I guess that in-game they did not want to complicate the Landsmeet scene and make it unbalanced for other sorts of PC wardens.  In-story the rationale likely is that Howe's accusations against the Couslands nullify their influence until Howe himself is discredited and the Warden exonerated.  As for naming Anora his successor rather than his future bride, it is a bit of a slap.  If the Landsmeet accepts the HNF warden as queen consort, they could be asked to accept her as queen regnant.

If you claim blood rights on Howe when you arrive at Eamon's castle in Denerim, Howe will say that the Couslands have no rights anymore since he showed them to be traitors to the king.  i suspect that the Cousland family name is in some question then, officially, and amongs the nobles it largely depends on whether you believe Loghain or not.

As far as Anora being heir and not HNF, if Alistair and HNF were married before the battle, I could see him doing it.  As it is though, they're only betrothed at that point and she has no more right to the throne than any other noble.  Anora is already Queen by way of her marriage to the former King, so her part in the succession is more certain than a woman who may or may not actually be able to marry the current King, depending on how events in the future play out.

Modifié par Sandtigress, 17 février 2010 - 07:09 .