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[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...
If you claim blood rights on Howe when you arrive at Eamon's castle in Denerim, Howe will say that the Couslands have no rights anymore since he showed them to be traitors to the king.  i suspect that the Cousland family name is in some question then, officially, and amongs the nobles it largely depends on whether you believe Loghain or not.

Right, that was what I meant by the Cousland influence being nullified until Howe is discredited.  Actually, given Howe's unpopularity, I doubt that his charges would stick anyway.  Bryce seems to have been a popular guy.  I guess it is just too complicated to bring out such subtleties, however, rather than making it a straight vote on Loghain vs. the Warden.

As far as Anora being heir and not HNF, if Alistair and HNF were married before the battle, I could see him doing it.  As it is though, they're only betrothed at that point and she has no more right to the throne than any other noble.  Anora is already Queen by way of her marriage to the former King, so her part in the succession is more certain than a woman who may or may not actually be able to marry the current King, depending on how events in the future play out.

The Couslands are 2nd in line to the throne behind the Theirins.  Your HN Warden has, arguably, more claim to the throne than Alistair does.  So it's not true that she is just any other noble, not after the question of Cousland loyalty has been settled by proving Howe's and Loghain's treachery.  If the royal line has to pass from the Theirins to some other family, the Couslands are ahead of the Mac Tir's.

Anora is not queen regnant, either, so it is a question of two queen consorts.  Anora has in her favor that she has already been ruling and is popular, but the HNF has in her favor that she is of noble blood, her family is practically on royal footing, and she's not implicated in Loghain's schemes.  Even if Alistair is assuming both Wardens are likely to fall in battle, he could put Anora third in succession for that eventuality.

I'm thinking this is for purposes of the expansions.  Too complicated to have the HN Warden be sole ruler. 

Modifié par Addai67, 17 février 2010 - 07:24 .

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...
The Couslands are 2nd in line to the throne behind the Theirins.  Your HN Warden has, arguably, more claim to the throne than Alistair does.  So it's not true that she is just any other noble, not after the question of Cousland loyalty has been settled by proving Howe's and Loghain's treachery.  If the royal line has to pass from the Theirins to some other family, the Couslands are ahead of the Mac Tir's.

Anora is not queen regnant, either, so it is a question of two queen consorts.  Anora has in her favor that she has already been ruling and is popular, but the HNF has in her favor that she is of noble blood, her family is practically on royal footing, and she's not implicated in Loghain's schemes.  Even if Alistair is assuming both Wardens are likely to fall in battle, he could put Anora third in succession for that eventuality.

I'm thinking this is for purposes of the expansions.  Too complicated to have the HN Warden be sole ruler. 

The line of succession doesn't quite work that way. The Couslands are not related to the Theirins, so their claim is less than Alistair's. (Given the fact that the nobility accept him without argument, I'm going with the presumption that his bastard status doesn't matter to them.) You are right that the Couslands aren't just any other nobles, but they are also not royalty. Alistair is the son of Maric and is a legitimate heir. Anora is the daughter of a Teryn and ruling Queen. I would say the Cousland claim is third on the list. While it's strong, I don't think it's enough to bypass a Theirin and a Queen.

[Sandtigress]

Actually, I think in ordinary, pre-Orlesian occupation times, Addai would be right on. As I said before, Sophia Dryden had a strong claim to throne, and she was not queen nor a Theirin. Ordinarily, I think the nobility would have a stronger say in who inherits the throne.



Post-occupation though, I think Ferelden has a bit of an obsession with having a Theirin on the throne, if for nothing else than a connection to its history and the legend of Calenhad. This makes Alistair's claim to the throne very strong by virtue of his bloodline, though I still think Anora holds precedence as acting and reigning Queen over an unmarried Cousland HNF.

[Monica21]

Sandtigress wrote...

Actually, I think in ordinary, pre-Orlesian occupation times, Addai would be right on. As I said before, Sophia Dryden had a strong claim to throne, and she was not queen nor a Theirin. Ordinarily, I think the nobility would have a stronger say in who inherits the throne.

Post-occupation though, I think Ferelden has a bit of an obsession with having a Theirin on the throne, if for nothing else than a connection to its history and the legend of Calenhad. This makes Alistair's claim to the throne very strong by virtue of his bloodline, though I still think Anora holds precedence as acting and reigning Queen over an unmarried Cousland HNF.

I agree with this, but I also base my opinion on the situation. Sophia Dryden was asked to lead a rebellion and she did. Current Ferelden however, is trying to mend itself of a civil war caused by Loghain. While others can claim the throne, a Theirin is the best uniter.

[Sandtigress]

Sophia's claim to the throne was before she became a Warden - in fact, she was commanded to go through the Joining because she lost her bid on the throne. So when she was just a noble, her house had a serious chance for the throne.



I use the example only to those that prior to the invasion, it appears that Theirin blood was not so vital as it now appears to be to the nobility.

[Monica21]

Sandtigress wrote...

Sophia's claim to the throne was before she became a Warden - in fact, she was commanded to go through the Joining because she lost her bid on the throne. So when she was just a noble, her house had a serious chance for the throne.

I use the example only to those that prior to the invasion, it appears that Theirin blood was not so vital as it now appears to be to the nobility.

Yes, but Arland still won. It was only later, after her Joining, that the Bannorn came to her to ask her to lead the rebellion.

[ejoslin]

Doesn't Anora acknowledge that marrying a Cousland gives her claim to the throne the legitimacy it was missing? I thought that was the reason she was willing to marry a HNM.

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

Doesn't Anora acknowledge that marrying a Cousland gives her claim to the throne the legitimacy it was missing? I thought that was the reason she was willing to marry a HNM.

She might, but I've never played HNM. If she does claim it, it doesn't really make sense. Even though the Couslands have been titled longer, she's still a teryn's daughter and the queen. A "ruling alone Anora" doesn't give any hint of dissention in the epilogue, unless I missed it.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Doesn't Anora acknowledge that marrying a Cousland gives her claim to the throne the legitimacy it was missing? I thought that was the reason she was willing to marry a HNM.

She might, but I've never played HNM. If she does claim it, it doesn't really make sense. Even though the Couslands have been titled longer, she's still a teryn's daughter and the queen. A "ruling alone Anora" doesn't give any hint of dissention in the epilogue, unless I missed it.

Well, THAT is metagaming.  I am sure that the reason she marries the HNM is to make her claim to the throne legitimate -- why else would she marry him?  Many wanted Bryce Cousland as king.  A Cousland marriage just makes sense.

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Doesn't Anora acknowledge that marrying a Cousland gives her claim to the throne the legitimacy it was missing? I thought that was the reason she was willing to marry a HNM.

She might, but I've never played HNM. If she does claim it, it doesn't really make sense. Even though the Couslands have been titled longer, she's still a teryn's daughter and the queen. A "ruling alone Anora" doesn't give any hint of dissention in the epilogue, unless I missed it.

Well, THAT is metagaming.  I am sure that the reason she marries the HNM is to make her claim to the throne legitimate -- why else would she marry him?  Many wanted Bryce Cousland as king.  A Cousland marriage just makes sense.

Only the mention of the epilogue is metagaming. In fact, I'd still say she has a stronger claim to the throne than a HN because we all know, and are shown during the course of the game, what happened the last time Wardens tried to interfere in Ferelden politics. And again she's still a teryn's daughter and the queen. I'm not saying a Cousland marriage isn't good politically, but I fail to see how it gives her claim legitimacy.

Where is it mentioned that some of the nobles wanted Bryce as king?

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Doesn't Anora acknowledge that marrying a Cousland gives her claim to the throne the legitimacy it was missing? I thought that was the reason she was willing to marry a HNM.

She might, but I've never played HNM. If she does claim it, it doesn't really make sense. Even though the Couslands have been titled longer, she's still a teryn's daughter and the queen. A "ruling alone Anora" doesn't give any hint of dissention in the epilogue, unless I missed it.

Well, THAT is metagaming.  I am sure that the reason she marries the HNM is to make her claim to the throne legitimate -- why else would she marry him?  Many wanted Bryce Cousland as king.  A Cousland marriage just makes sense.

Only the mention of the epilogue is metagaming. In fact, I'd still say she has a stronger claim to the throne than a HN because we all know, and are shown during the course of the game, what happened the last time Wardens tried to interfere in Ferelden politics. And again she's still a teryn's daughter and the queen. I'm not saying a Cousland marriage isn't good politically, but I fail to see how it gives her claim legitimacy.

Where is it mentioned that some of the nobles wanted Bryce as king?

All I'm doing is saying what Anora says, which is probably how the rest of the nobles feel as well.  A Cousland marrying Anora will definitely unite the country, and gives her the one thing she doesn't have to offer the throne -- noble blood.  It's the same thing she says about Alistair, and the same reason she's willing to marry Alistair -- for the noble blood.  So obviously she's viewing the Theirin bloodline and the Cousland bloodline as pretty much the same.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 février 2010 - 12:05 .

[Gold Dragon]

Metagaming Knowledge: Anora Ruling alone does indeed have some dissent, mostly among the Nobility: She will NOT take a husband (other than Alistair or MHN PC), because nobody can match up to the bar of her Father, Loghain.  Which means no heir, even a bastard (and a Queen doesn't have to say who she bedded, either).

Also, it's official: Anora is power-hungry, not really trying to help Ferelden. With this ending, on Anora's death, it's a fairly large risk of yet ANOTHER civil war, and no Theirin/Mac Tir (and possibly Cousland) to unite the realm. Personally, I say that Anora's an idiot.

Modifié par A Golden Dragon, 18 février 2010 - 12:10 .

[Monica21]

@ejoslin, I just don't see the same thing in Anora's statement that you do. All she really wants is someone to get the rest of the nobles to support her. A Cousland marriage helps, because he's as high-born as she is, but she doesn't need it to prove her claim.



@A Golden Dragon, I missed that part of the epilogue. The only thing I noticed was the elves issue, but that's been discussed to death. Are you referencing a specific card? And yes, that's another concern I have with putting her on the throne at all, much less married to a HN or Alistair. There's a 50/50 chance that she's the reason Cailan hasn't produced an heir, and I don't want to take that chance. If I'm RP'ing a royalist, I'd rather see Alistair on the throne and find his own wife to produce an heir. Who's to say what happens when Anora dies?

[ejoslin]

A Golden Dragon is right, but I'm trying to stay away from epilogue cards. I wish SOMEONE would correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Anora, I believe, does say that it's noble blood that she doesn't have, that it's the one thing that either a Theirin or a Cousland marriage would give her. Which strongly implies that Cousland blood has nearly as strong a claim to the throne as Theirin blood does.

[Gold Dragon]

In the Ending that I got that card, Alistair was Sacrificed, and Loghain Executed by Alistair in Landsmeet. A Statue of Loghain was built, but ignored by most of Ferelden except the Queen. ANd ironically, no problems with the Elves, city or otherwise. Dalish Elf the Reason for this? I doubt it, as with THAT ending, Lyna Ran back to her clan in Ostagar with Zevran (and quietly in tears).

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

A Golden Dragon is right, but I'm trying to stay away from epilogue cards. I wish SOMEONE would correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Anora, I believe, does say that it's noble blood that she doesn't have, that it's the one thing that either a Theirin or a Cousland marriage would give her. Which strongly implies that Cousland blood has nearly as strong a claim to the throne as Theirin blood does.

I'm not distrusting that she really does say that, I just don't know why she would. She was born after Loghain became a teryn, so it doesn't make much sense for her to say she doesn't have noble blood.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

A Golden Dragon is right, but I'm trying to stay away from epilogue cards. I wish SOMEONE would correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Anora, I believe, does say that it's noble blood that she doesn't have, that it's the one thing that either a Theirin or a Cousland marriage would give her. Which strongly implies that Cousland blood has nearly as strong a claim to the throne as Theirin blood does.

I'm not distrusting that she really does say that, I just don't know why she would. She was born after Loghain became a teryn, so it doesn't make much sense for her to say she doesn't have noble blood.

Because despite Loghain being granted a title, he's still viewed as a commoner, at least by blood.  You hear it in the game actually, starting at Ostegar.  Probably in a few generations, the family would be fully accepted as noble, but not when the title is that new.

Edit: Unless, of course, if you keep Anora as queen.  Then the Mac Tir would be the new royal line.  But that hasn't happened yet.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 février 2010 - 01:34 .

[Sandtigress]

ejoslin wrote...

A Golden Dragon is right, but I'm trying to stay away from epilogue cards. I wish SOMEONE would correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Anora, I believe, does say that it's noble blood that she doesn't have, that it's the one thing that either a Theirin or a Cousland marriage would give her. Which strongly implies that Cousland blood has nearly as strong a claim to the throne as Theirin blood does.

I haven't noticed it with a HNF, even when she acknowledges a relationship between you and Alistair and asks if that's why you support him.  Since I haven't played an HNM, I'm not sure if she says it to him.

[ejoslin]

Sandtigress wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

A Golden Dragon is right, but I'm trying to stay away from epilogue cards. I wish SOMEONE would correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Anora, I believe, does say that it's noble blood that she doesn't have, that it's the one thing that either a Theirin or a Cousland marriage would give her. Which strongly implies that Cousland blood has nearly as strong a claim to the throne as Theirin blood does.

I haven't noticed it with a HNF, even when she acknowledges a relationship between you and Alistair and asks if that's why you support him.  Since I haven't played an HNM, I'm not sure if she says it to him.

It's when setting up the marriage between Alistair and Anora that she says that about the Theirin blood.  It's the HNM where she says it about the Cousland blood.  

[Sandtigress]

ejoslin wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

A Golden Dragon is right, but I'm trying to stay away from epilogue cards. I wish SOMEONE would correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Anora, I believe, does say that it's noble blood that she doesn't have, that it's the one thing that either a Theirin or a Cousland marriage would give her. Which strongly implies that Cousland blood has nearly as strong a claim to the throne as Theirin blood does.

I haven't noticed it with a HNF, even when she acknowledges a relationship between you and Alistair and asks if that's why you support him.  Since I haven't played an HNM, I'm not sure if she says it to him.

It's when setting up the marriage between Alistair and Anora that she says that about the Theirin blood.  It's the HNM where she says it about the Cousland blood.  

I guess what I meant is that she doesn't seem to indicate that it helps Alistair's claim any if you're HNF (which is something I thought someone else had said she does) but does claim that the noble blood of an HNM would help her claim.  So Alistair doesn't need a wife's help in getting the throne unless its Anora, but Anora's claim is shored up by marrying someone of noble blood, implying her claim in some ways is the weaker one.

I suspect that for Anora, its more the idea of two powerful families come together, while Alistair's claim can stand on Theirin descent alone.  That says to me that Theirin blood has the stronger claim than either Mac Tir or Cousland.

[ejoslin]

Sandtigress wrote...
I guess what I meant is that she doesn't seem to indicate that it helps Alistair's claim any if you're HNF (which is something I thought someone else had said she does) but does claim that the noble blood of an HNM would help her claim.  So Alistair doesn't need a wife's help in getting the throne unless its Anora, but Anora's claim is shored up by marrying someone of noble blood, implying her claim in some ways is the weaker one.

I suspect that for Anora, its more the idea of two powerful families come together, while Alistair's claim can stand on Theirin descent alone.  That says to me that Theirin blood has the stronger claim than either Mac Tir or Cousland.

I can agree with that, that Theirin has the stronger claim, but it's the Cousland blood that gives her claim what is needed.  I still don't get why no one looks at the HNF as a contender to the throne until she pulls her own little coup.  

[kbach36]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Heh Alistair and my Dalish are currently in "I can't talk to you" mode. The next conversation will trigger his "So will you miss it" conversation, and I'm trying to pace the romance! He's not allowed to admit his feelings for her until after the Brecilian forest! lol "I can't talk to you" syndrome is so tough to deal with...I just know he's going to get randomly selected while I'm trying to loot something, and that will just spoil the romance of it all!

I know your frustration. I have to do that, as well as deprive Alistair of his action figures in order to pace the relationship with the progress of the game, otherwise, I get at 100 adore by the time I hit my thrid quest for treaties. That's tough as well...his kid-at-christmas response when you give him a present is so damned cute...it's just like the way my husband reacts when I sneak him a nifty gift or make him his favorite pie for dinner.

Pacing the romance is indeed an art.  My first time I also had him in the mid 90's Love when I started my third treaty.  I didn't think that I was going that fast, but I was really caught up in the whole romance thing.  Now, I have to watch very closely and pay attention or I find that I shot up 30-40 points without even realizing it.  I've even gone one whole major quest without talking to Alistair- my pc was pretty mad about being made a Grey Warden and didn't even want to talk to anyone who was related to the whole thing. She was just running around getting stuff done.  But once she calms down, then things progress- slowly.....or not:whistle:

[Sandtigress]

ejoslin wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
I guess what I meant is that she doesn't seem to indicate that it helps Alistair's claim any if you're HNF (which is something I thought someone else had said she does) but does claim that the noble blood of an HNM would help her claim.  So Alistair doesn't need a wife's help in getting the throne unless its Anora, but Anora's claim is shored up by marrying someone of noble blood, implying her claim in some ways is the weaker one.

I suspect that for Anora, its more the idea of two powerful families come together, while Alistair's claim can stand on Theirin descent alone.  That says to me that Theirin blood has the stronger claim than either Mac Tir or Cousland.

I can agree with that, that Theirin has the stronger claim, but it's the Cousland blood that gives her claim what is needed.  I still don't get why no one looks at the HNF as a contender to the throne until she pulls her own little coup.  

I suppose its stuff like "she's a Warden and therefore has no titles" with Alistair as a special case because he's the only heir to the Theirin line - especially as she's the visible leader of the two Wardens left.  Eamon presents Alistair as the heir, otherwise, I don't think it occurred to Anora, for instance, to think of him as a possibility.  Maybe if someone had pushed you forward as a potential candidate someone might have paid attention, but I really think its more the idea that Alistair is a special case because of his blood, while HNF falls more comfortably into the title-less Warden idea.

Plus, Eamon knows you would never let him control you through the throne so he wouldn't use you as a candidate, if you're the type to see Eamon as a bit of a behind-the-scenes power-monger.  Among the other nobles, perhaps they think that the Couslands by and large are dead and don't realize that the youngest daughter survived.  Its not in Howe's interests, for instance, to let that little tidbit be known, and almost everyone else who knew died at Ostagar.  So to the rest of the nobility, you're dead along with your possibly traitorous family until just before Landsmeet, and by then, you've already got two strong contenders for the throne with two immensely influential backers opposing each other - who wants to throw a third wrench into that mix?

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...
I can agree with that, that Theirin has the stronger claim, but it's the Cousland blood that gives her claim what is needed.  I still don't get why no one looks at the HNF as a contender to the throne until she pulls her own little coup.  

Well, first, I still think that Alistair and Anora have the strongest claims. Alistair's by blood and Anora's by marriage. And while I think Eamon does want to pull strings behind the throne, I do think he's sincere in his desire to make sure a Theirin is sitting on it. He is a royalist, no doubt about that. The entire Landsmeet is his doing after all. Not to mention that the PC is a Grey Warden, and Wardens "shouldn't" involve themselves in politics. I don't think Eamon sees the PC as a factor at all, and actually sees her as a Grey Warden and not a Cousland. You do hear throughout the game that Wardens leave their old lives behind them once they go through the Joining.

[kbach36]

Sandtigress wrote...

I suppose its stuff like "she's a Warden and therefore has no titles" with Alistair as a special case because he's the only heir to the Theirin line - especially as she's the visible leader of the two Wardens left.  Eamon presents Alistair as the heir, otherwise, I don't think it occurred to Anora, for instance, to think of him as a possibility.  Maybe if someone had pushed you forward as a potential candidate someone might have paid attention, but I really think its more the idea that Alistair is a special case because of his blood, while HNF falls more comfortably into the title-less Warden idea.

Plus, Eamon knows you would never let him control you through the throne so he wouldn't use you as a candidate, if you're the type to see Eamon as a bit of a behind-the-scenes power-monger.  Among the other nobles, perhaps they think that the Couslands by and large are dead and don't realize that the youngest daughter survived.  Its not in Howe's interests, for instance, to let that little tidbit be known, and almost everyone else who knew died at Ostagar.  So to the rest of the nobility, you're dead along with your possibly traitorous family until just before Landsmeet, and by then, you've already got two strong contenders for the throne with two immensely influential backers opposing each other - who wants to throw a third wrench into that mix?

That's the part that got me every time.  As a HNF all you hear is how now that you are a Grey Warden you can not have a title, but then it's all fine and dandy to throw Alistair up on the throne (which I fully supported).  I get that he is the last of the Theirins, but as far as we know (until the very end) she is the last of the Couslands. What happens to all her family lands and finances if she is not allowed to hold a title.  And can't you ask for lands and a title as a boon from the King or Queen.  I haven't actually done that.  I almost always choose to have the Grey Wardens remembered.