1287 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

kbach36 wrote...
That's the part that got me every time.  As a HNF all you hear is how now that you are a Grey Warden you can not have a title, but then it's all fine and dandy to throw Alistair up on the throne (which I fully supported).  I get that he is the last of the Theirins, but as far as we know (until the very end) she is the last of the Couslands. What happens to all her family lands and finances if she is not allowed to hold a title.  And can't you ask for lands and a title as a boon from the King or Queen.  I haven't actually done that.  I almost always choose to have the Grey Wardens remembered.

I don't think there's any law that says you have to give up your title if you have one, it's more for tradition's sake. Like the first Wardens, you can choose to renounce your claims because you're devoted to fighting the Blight. I think Duncan even gave up his last name. The conversation with Ser Gilmore indicates that once you become a Warden, you leave your old life behind, but there are still places in the game where you can choose what you are. Ser Perth asks you how to address you, and you can decide if you're a Warden or a teryn's daughter.

I can't remember the boon, but I think it's asking Howe and his family to pay for their crimes. Whoever you've chosen will strip the Howes of land and title, but according to someone else this is basically done anyway. Whether you ask for it or not, Amaranthine is taken from the Howes and Highever is given back to Fergus.

Modifié par Monica21, 18 février 2010 - 03:02 .

[ejoslin]

kbach36 wrote...

That's the part that got me every time.  As a HNF all you hear is how now that you are a Grey Warden you can not have a title, but then it's all fine and dandy to throw Alistair up on the throne (which I fully supported).  I get that he is the last of the Theirins, but as far as we know (until the very end) she is the last of the Couslands. What happens to all her family lands and finances if she is not allowed to hold a title.  And can't you ask for lands and a title as a boon from the King or Queen.  I haven't actually done that.  I almost always choose to have the Grey Wardens remembered.

Anora makes it very clear that Highever is going to be restored to the Warden -- and Alistair as king also restores Highever to the Couslands (though to Fergus).  Whether or not Grey Wardens are supposed to hold titles, obviously, Grey Wardens can and do hold them.  Ferelden law and Grey Warden rules are not the same, obviously.  It's a conflict, but one that can be overcome apparently.

[Sandtigress]

kbach36 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

I suppose its stuff like "she's a Warden and therefore has no titles" with Alistair as a special case because he's the only heir to the Theirin line - especially as she's the visible leader of the two Wardens left.  Eamon presents Alistair as the heir, otherwise, I don't think it occurred to Anora, for instance, to think of him as a possibility.  Maybe if someone had pushed you forward as a potential candidate someone might have paid attention, but I really think its more the idea that Alistair is a special case because of his blood, while HNF falls more comfortably into the title-less Warden idea.

Plus, Eamon knows you would never let him control you through the throne so he wouldn't use you as a candidate, if you're the type to see Eamon as a bit of a behind-the-scenes power-monger.  Among the other nobles, perhaps they think that the Couslands by and large are dead and don't realize that the youngest daughter survived.  Its not in Howe's interests, for instance, to let that little tidbit be known, and almost everyone else who knew died at Ostagar.  So to the rest of the nobility, you're dead along with your possibly traitorous family until just before Landsmeet, and by then, you've already got two strong contenders for the throne with two immensely influential backers opposing each other - who wants to throw a third wrench into that mix?

That's the part that got me every time.  As a HNF all you hear is how now that you are a Grey Warden you can not have a title, but then it's all fine and dandy to throw Alistair up on the throne (which I fully supported).  I get that he is the last of the Theirins, but as far as we know (until the very end) she is the last of the Couslands. What happens to all her family lands and finances if she is not allowed to hold a title.  And can't you ask for lands and a title as a boon from the King or Queen.  I haven't actually done that.  I almost always choose to have the Grey Wardens remembered.

Well, at first, Howe claims them all, which is why he's the Teyrn of Highever in the HN origin at Landsmeet - I don't remember him having that title with my Dalish or CE.  Afterwards, who knows.  Trying to get your support, Anora will promise it back to you, and you would assume that Alistair would promise you the same.  You can indeed become landed gentry no matter your origin, you can ask the King/Queen for land and titles and they make you Teyrn(a) of Gwaren, Loghain's former title.

Ferelden likes to play fast and loose with the Grey Warden rules, what can we say?  You do have to make exceptions when there are only two of them, and they're both potentially the last members of their bloodline, i suppose.

[galesong1234]

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

A Golden Dragon is right, but I'm trying to stay away from epilogue cards. I wish SOMEONE would correct me if I'm wrong on this, but Anora, I believe, does say that it's noble blood that she doesn't have, that it's the one thing that either a Theirin or a Cousland marriage would give her. Which strongly implies that Cousland blood has nearly as strong a claim to the throne as Theirin blood does.

I'm not distrusting that she really does say that, I just don't know why she would. She was born after Loghain became a teryn, so it doesn't make much sense for her to say she doesn't have noble blood.

When letting Loghain live and choosing Anora as queen. You can ask Anora about her father, in which she states, "He was a farmer." Thus Anora does not have noble blood, unless it is from her mother.

[galesong1234]

kbach36 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

I suppose its stuff like "she's a Warden and therefore has no titles" with Alistair as a special case because he's the only heir to the Theirin line - especially as she's the visible leader of the two Wardens left.  Eamon presents Alistair as the heir, otherwise, I don't think it occurred to Anora, for instance, to think of him as a possibility.  Maybe if someone had pushed you forward as a potential candidate someone might have paid attention, but I really think its more the idea that Alistair is a special case because of his blood, while HNF falls more comfortably into the title-less Warden idea.

Plus, Eamon knows you would never let him control you through the throne so he wouldn't use you as a candidate, if you're the type to see Eamon as a bit of a behind-the-scenes power-monger.  Among the other nobles, perhaps they think that the Couslands by and large are dead and don't realize that the youngest daughter survived.  Its not in Howe's interests, for instance, to let that little tidbit be known, and almost everyone else who knew died at Ostagar.  So to the rest of the nobility, you're dead along with your possibly traitorous family until just before Landsmeet, and by then, you've already got two strong contenders for the throne with two immensely influential backers opposing each other - who wants to throw a third wrench into that mix?

That's the part that got me every time.  As a HNF all you hear is how now that you are a Grey Warden you can not have a title, but then it's all fine and dandy to throw Alistair up on the throne (which I fully supported).  I get that he is the last of the Theirins, but as far as we know (until the very end) she is the last of the Couslands. What happens to all her family lands and finances if she is not allowed to hold a title.  And can't you ask for lands and a title as a boon from the King or Queen.  I haven't actually done that.  I almost always choose to have the Grey Wardens remembered.

If Grey Wardens should leave their old lives behind, then why put Alistair on throne as he would rather be a Grey Warden.  If it wasn't for the Eamon's manipulations, Anora would remain queen.  Which would be fine if it were just her, but then you get power-hungry dad taking over and making all the decisions. Therein lies the trouble. If it wasn't for the fact that Loghain murdered the king (left him to die) and was taking the power from Anora; Anora would had been a perfect ruler.

The Couslands are acknowledged throughout the game as nobility until you get to Landsmeet, that is kinda tiresome. Why make it a point to acknowledge her status throughout the game to forget about it during Landsmeet?

For me, I don't think I should have had to ask for my title back, especially after Howe's schemes and lies were revealed, as they were hers by right.  I have requested that Cousland's land's and estate be returned though. In which they fall back to Fergus.

I still believe tht HNF has a stronger claim to the throne than Anora through noble bloodline. Loghain was a farmer (you can find that out if you let Loghain live). So, unless Anora's mother was of noble blood, then her only claim would be that she was Cailan's widow. 

I think the game should have suggested making the Cousland girl queen instead of us having to persuade it.  The only thing in question would be to provide an heir. And if we really wanted to claim an heir, we should claim Alistair's bastard child with Morrigan for that matter.

[master-fluff]

galesong1234 wrote...

I still believe tht HNF has a stronger claim to the throne than Anora through noble bloodline. Loghain was a farmer (you can find that out if you let Loghain live). So, unless Anora's mother was of noble blood, then her only claim would be that she was Cailan's widow. 

Loghain may have been born a commoner but he was elevated to a noble by Maric.  He was made Teryn of Gwaren therefore his daughter is indeed a noble.  Anora would have inherited the terynir of Gwaren and is therefore of equal rank to whomever inherits the terynir of Highever.  That's irrespective of her current status as queen dowager.

[ejoslin]

If your NOT HN grey warden chose to become Teyrn(a) of Gwaren, if he or she actually managed to have a child, I'm not sure that child would be considered of noble blood. I have my doubts that any child of Shiani would be considered noble blood as well (City elf boon). They may have the rank, but blood seems to count for a lot in Ferelden.

[master-fluff]

Well, the Couslands weren't the original holders of Highever, they grabbed that after Flemeth killed Teryn Conobar Elstan and ended the Elstan bloodline. The first Cousland teryn was just a captain of the guard for Conobar. So it seems terynirs are hereditary once a family is in possession so Anora is of noble blood thanks to her father.

[ejoslin]

Yes, but a few hundred years have gone by. I think it's the fact that they've been noble for many generations that gives their bloodline the noble pedigree.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 février 2010 - 11:56 .

[master-fluff]

So how many generations does it take to be considered 'noble' ?

[nos_astra]

Good question. Maybe until you can inherit the 'noble blood' from both
sides of the family?

Was Loghain married to a noblewoman? And -
um - Alistair's mother was a commoner (but being a king's son probably
helps forgetting this part of his hertiage when convenient).

Modifié par klarabella, 18 février 2010 - 12:05 .

[master-fluff]

The answer is the newly elevated Teryn/Teryna is a noble. And his/her child is one too. Otherwise what right would a commoner (the first child) have to inherit that terynir ? A title is either hereditary from the very beginning or not. They don't evolve into one after x number of years/generations.

[ejoslin]

I have no clue. But the HNF is obviously considered a noblewoman by people when it's brought up, even though her Teyrnir and title has been stripped, whereas Loghain is often referred to as a commoner. The fact that Alistair's mother was a maid IS a point against him, but his having Theirin blood overrides that. It was also clear from a couple of discussions with the nobles that (Wulff and, gah, whatshername that offered bowmen) Highever still was considered the Cousland Teyrnir.



I'm not saying I think this is right, fair, makes sense, or whatever. I'm just going from what I see being said in game. Blood seems to count for a lot more than the actual title and Couslands are OLD blood; many would have supported Bryce for king.

[nos_astra]

master-fluff wrote...
The answer is the newly elevated Teryn/Teryna is a noble. And his/her child is one too. Otherwise what right would a commoner (the first child) have to inherit that terynir ? A title is either hereditary from the very beginning or not. They don't evolve into one after x number of years/generations.

Oh, you mean .. well, technically yes. But it may need some generations for the house to get rid of that commoner smell. As Sten would say, Loghain is a farmer-turned-noble and other nobles may not forget this too soon. Even when dealing with Anora who was the queen-consort and very capable pulling the strings behind the scenes, she can be perceived as the daughter of a farmer-turned-noble when it's convenient. Unfair.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 février 2010 - 06:21 .

[Bratt1204]

I was wondering if anyone playing as a HNF has tried this ending: In a romance with Alistair (+100 Love) choose to make him King & rule jointly as Queen. Do NOT do the DR, leave Alistair at the gates and do the US yourself. How does your Epilogue read? I have been wanting to try this ending but have not gotten to it yet. Please post Epi details if you have gone this route. Thanks.

[ejoslin]

Alistair as king is fine. Epilogue reads the same as any other ultimate sacrifice. In his eulogy, he says, "I thought we'd be together forever" and looks sad. It's if you don't make him king that he has a bad ending.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[Bratt1204]

galesong1234 wrote...

kbach36 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

I suppose its stuff like "she's a Warden and therefore has no titles" with Alistair as a special case because he's the only heir to the Theirin line - especially as she's the visible leader of the two Wardens left.  Eamon presents Alistair as the heir, otherwise, I don't think it occurred to Anora, for instance, to think of him as a possibility.  Maybe if someone had pushed you forward as a potential candidate someone might have paid attention, but I really think its more the idea that Alistair is a special case because of his blood, while HNF falls more comfortably into the title-less Warden idea.

Plus, Eamon knows you would never let him control you through the throne so he wouldn't use you as a candidate, if you're the type to see Eamon as a bit of a behind-the-scenes power-monger.  Among the other nobles, perhaps they think that the Couslands by and large are dead and don't realize that the youngest daughter survived.  Its not in Howe's interests, for instance, to let that little tidbit be known, and almost everyone else who knew died at Ostagar.  So to the rest of the nobility, you're dead along with your possibly traitorous family until just before Landsmeet, and by then, you've already got two strong contenders for the throne with two immensely influential backers opposing each other - who wants to throw a third wrench into that mix?

That's the part that got me every time.  As a HNF all you hear is how now that you are a Grey Warden you can not have a title, but then it's all fine and dandy to throw Alistair up on the throne (which I fully supported).  I get that he is the last of the Theirins, but as far as we know (until the very end) she is the last of the Couslands. What happens to all her family lands and finances if she is not allowed to hold a title.  And can't you ask for lands and a title as a boon from the King or Queen.  I haven't actually done that.  I almost always choose to have the Grey Wardens remembered.

If Grey Wardens should leave their old lives behind, then why put Alistair on throne as he would rather be a Grey Warden.  If it wasn't for the Eamon's manipulations, Anora would remain queen.  Which would be fine if it were just her, but then you get power-hungry dad taking over and making all the decisions. Therein lies the trouble. If it wasn't for the fact that Loghain murdered the king (left him to die) and was taking the power from Anora; Anora would had been a perfect ruler.

The Couslands are acknowledged throughout the game as nobility until you get to Landsmeet, that is kinda tiresome. Why make it a point to acknowledge her status throughout the game to forget about it during Landsmeet?

For me, I don't think I should have had to ask for my title back, especially after Howe's schemes and lies were revealed, as they were hers by right.  I have requested that Cousland's land's and estate be returned though. In which they fall back to Fergus.

I still believe tht HNF has a stronger claim to the throne than Anora through noble bloodline. Loghain was a farmer (you can find that out if you let Loghain live). So, unless Anora's mother was of noble blood, then her only claim would be that she was Cailan's widow. 

I think the game should have suggested making the Cousland girl queen instead of us having to persuade it.  The only thing in question would be to provide an heir. And if we really wanted to claim an heir, we should claim Alistair's bastard child with Morrigan for that matter.

I would never allow Anora to remain as Queen of Ferelden, she in not of noble blood, Loghain being a commoner and only recently granted a title of nobility makes her a weak candidate. She is a master manipulator and would run Ferelden into the ground. I do not recall anywhere in history a widowed Princess-Consort being allowed to rule a nation alone, without marrying again.  A Queen perhaps but a Princess-Consort? In my opinion the strongest ruling option is Alistair as King (being a Theirin) and having a female Cousland as Queen, ruling jointly. You have the proper combination of true Royal blood joining with proper Nobility. I still do not think that the case is as strong for a male Cousland to marry Anora and rule jointly with her, due to Anora not being of proper Nobility.  The best option for a male Cousland would be to initially marry Anora, then later have her executed for treason, accusing her of conspiring with her father to have King Cailin killed. Then rule Ferelden alone.

[galesong1234]

Bratt1204 wrote...

galesong1234 wrote...

kbach36 wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

I suppose its stuff like "she's a Warden and therefore has no titles" with Alistair as a special case because he's the only heir to the Theirin line - especially as she's the visible leader of the two Wardens left.  Eamon presents Alistair as the heir, otherwise, I don't think it occurred to Anora, for instance, to think of him as a possibility.  Maybe if someone had pushed you forward as a potential candidate someone might have paid attention, but I really think its more the idea that Alistair is a special case because of his blood, while HNF falls more comfortably into the title-less Warden idea.

Plus, Eamon knows you would never let him control you through the throne so he wouldn't use you as a candidate, if you're the type to see Eamon as a bit of a behind-the-scenes power-monger.  Among the other nobles, perhaps they think that the Couslands by and large are dead and don't realize that the youngest daughter survived.  Its not in Howe's interests, for instance, to let that little tidbit be known, and almost everyone else who knew died at Ostagar.  So to the rest of the nobility, you're dead along with your possibly traitorous family until just before Landsmeet, and by then, you've already got two strong contenders for the throne with two immensely influential backers opposing each other - who wants to throw a third wrench into that mix?

That's the part that got me every time.  As a HNF all you hear is how now that you are a Grey Warden you can not have a title, but then it's all fine and dandy to throw Alistair up on the throne (which I fully supported).  I get that he is the last of the Theirins, but as far as we know (until the very end) she is the last of the Couslands. What happens to all her family lands and finances if she is not allowed to hold a title.  And can't you ask for lands and a title as a boon from the King or Queen.  I haven't actually done that.  I almost always choose to have the Grey Wardens remembered.

If Grey Wardens should leave their old lives behind, then why put Alistair on throne as he would rather be a Grey Warden.  If it wasn't for the Eamon's manipulations, Anora would remain queen.  Which would be fine if it were just her, but then you get power-hungry dad taking over and making all the decisions. Therein lies the trouble. If it wasn't for the fact that Loghain murdered the king (left him to die) and was taking the power from Anora; Anora would had been a perfect ruler.

The Couslands are acknowledged throughout the game as nobility until you get to Landsmeet, that is kinda tiresome. Why make it a point to acknowledge her status throughout the game to forget about it during Landsmeet?

For me, I don't think I should have had to ask for my title back, especially after Howe's schemes and lies were revealed, as they were hers by right.  I have requested that Cousland's land's and estate be returned though. In which they fall back to Fergus.

I still believe tht HNF has a stronger claim to the throne than Anora through noble bloodline. Loghain was a farmer (you can find that out if you let Loghain live). So, unless Anora's mother was of noble blood, then her only claim would be that she was Cailan's widow. 

I think the game should have suggested making the Cousland girl queen instead of us having to persuade it.  The only thing in question would be to provide an heir. And if we really wanted to claim an heir, we should claim Alistair's bastard child with Morrigan for that matter.

I would never allow Anora to remain as Queen of Ferelden, she in not of noble blood, Loghain being a commoner and only recently granted a title of nobility makes her a weak candidate. She is a master manipulator and would run Ferelden into the ground. I do not recall anywhere in history a widowed Princess-Consort being allowed to rule a nation alone, without marrying again.  A Queen perhaps but a Princess-Consort? In my opinion the strongest ruling option is Alistair as King (being a Theirin) and having a female Cousland as Queen, ruling jointly. You have the proper combination of true Royal blood joining with proper Nobility. I still do not think that the case is as strong for a male Cousland to marry Anora and rule jointly with her, due to Anora not being of proper Nobility.  The best option for a male Cousland would be to initially marry Anora, then later have her executed for treason, accusing her of conspiring with her father to have King Cailin killed. Then rule Ferelden alone.

Bingo! She is completey power hungry and I can't stand her. At least Loghian has the excuse of his obcession and utter hate for Orlay (sp?) for his actions. 

Reordan makes a perfect argument in suggesting that Loghain become a Grey Warden.  Make Loghain the one thing that he hates most, a Grey Warden.  He would could die at the joining or his final execution would happen upon the death of the archedemon. If it weren't for Alistair leaving, I would have picked that choice.

[CalJones]

She's a good queen, adept at politics and popular. I see no reason to remove her. I see marrying her to Alistair as the best way to unite Fereldan (and yes I did this when I romanced Alistair, sacrificing that relationship for the good of Fereldan much like Loghain did with Rowan).



Re: Anora's parentage, her mother was a cabinet maker's daughter - Loghain tells you that if you recruit him. So no, she's not old nobility. The fact Loghain was elevated to Teyrn makes the match with Cailan feasible, though.

[Monica21]

CalJones wrote...

She's a good queen, adept at politics and popular. I see no reason to remove her. I see marrying her to Alistair as the best way to unite Fereldan (and yes I did this when I romanced Alistair, sacrificing that relationship for the good of Fereldan much like Loghain did with Rowan).

Re: Anora's parentage, her mother was a cabinet maker's daughter - Loghain tells you that if you recruit him. So no, she's not old nobility. The fact Loghain was elevated to Teyrn makes the match with Cailan feasible, though.

And also makes her nobility. The whole "she's not noble" idea is rubbish, imo. She's certainly not old nobility like the Couslands, but she was born into the nobility.

[maxernst]

Yes, if she weren't considered noble, she would never have been married to Callan. The reason Loghain's elevation to teyrn makes her eligible to marry Callan is that it makes her noble.

[Nillaith]

Yet there are still people who don't consider Anora as 'fully' noble. For example, IIRC, at the tavern in Lothering I spent a while getting all the information I could from the owner and at one point he mentioned there were rumours about Anora's inability to beget a child (I just played RTO yesterday and there were more hints about this) which had been considered by some as some sort of curse for her being a plebeian.

Modifié par Nillaith, 19 février 2010 - 07:09 .

[Bratt1204]

master-fluff wrote...

Well, the Couslands weren't the original holders of Highever, they grabbed that after Flemeth killed Teryn Conobar Elstan and ended the Elstan bloodline. The first Cousland teryn was just a captain of the guard for Conobar. So it seems terynirs are hereditary once a family is in possession so Anora is of noble blood thanks to her father.

Her child would be; well a true Noble.

Modifié par Bratt1204, 19 février 2010 - 09:30 .

[Bratt1204]

Monica21 wrote...

CalJones wrote...

She's a good queen, adept at politics and popular. I see no reason to remove her. I see marrying her to Alistair as the best way to unite Fereldan (and yes I did this when I romanced Alistair, sacrificing that relationship for the good of Fereldan much like Loghain did with Rowan).

Re: Anora's parentage, her mother was a cabinet maker's daughter - Loghain tells you that if you recruit him. So no, she's not old nobility. The fact Loghain was elevated to Teyrn makes the match with Cailan feasible, though.

And also makes her nobility. The whole "she's not noble" idea is rubbish, imo. She's certainly not old nobility like the Couslands, but she was born into the nobility.

Was Loghain given a Noble title before or after Anora's birth? I believe it was after.

[Bratt1204]

CalJones wrote...

She's a good queen, adept at politics and popular. I see no reason to remove her. I see marrying her to Alistair as the best way to unite Fereldan (and yes I did this when I romanced Alistair, sacrificing that relationship for the good of Fereldan much like Loghain did with Rowan).

You did this RPing as a Cousland Female? You feel that having Alistair marry Anora would be better for Ferelden then if he married a Cousland Female? I strongly disagree. Based on the amount of times I have played this game, Anora is a deceitful manipulator. I would execute her immediately if given the option.