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[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight, you have more faith in Fereldans' view of elves than I do. At the very least it would make the succession always in question, which it is anyway.

Re. the ending slides, I have gotten two different ones that have Alistair leaving the throne at some point. One, an HNF marries him ending where he is called to Weisshaupt, the other a marry-Anora-warden-rebuilds-GWs where he leaves to join her.

Re. how it gets out:  How does anything get out, especially when you are in power and thus have enemies?  Someone knows the truth, unless you think Maric set it all up by himself.  If they're called out on it publicly, do you see Alistair denying it?  Obviously it's all a hypothetical exercise.  I am hoping it is one we get to think about more, though.  

Oh, Fiona is/was an elf? Well, they probably wouldn't want to spread that around. In any case, there aren't a whole bunch of Therin's waiting around to rule, so i still don't think it would matter.

[galesong1234]

Okay...so been playing around with various choices in the game that I normally wouldn't have played. I completely flirted with Teagan and asked him if he had a family. Teagan asked if I had one and I replied that I was a mage, which he replies mages can be married. hmmmm.

But that's not was surprising. Did anyone know that if you leave Redcliffe town and go to another destination, when you come back everyone in town will be killed except Teagan?

I found this out completely by mistake. When Ser Perth said I had time to do whatever before nightfall, I went to camp and then decided to go to Denerim for whatever reason. When I came back the town of Redcliffe was completely empty without any barricades. Thought it completey strange. So went to chantry and there was a body on the ground. Walked up to it and Teagan wakes up. None too happy.

I guess when you tell him that you don't have time to help him, you really can refuse to save the town.

Modifié par galesong1234, 03 mars 2010 - 08:03 .

[galesong1234]

Here's another strange thing. Has anybody ran into this glitch?



After being betrayed by Anora during her rescue, I refused to support her. Went to Landsmeet, made my arguments, and Anora comes out and says it's all lies and Loghain's the big hero. No big surpise there.



Here's the glitch. Nobles make final vote. Four favor the Wardens and two favor Loghain; yet, Loghain call for Warden's arest and then we fight.



I've play this twice and the vote is the same. Four to two in favor of the Wardens. Why is Loghain calling for my arest? Just wondering because I really dispise Anora.

[SurelyForth]

galesong1234 wrote...

Here's another strange thing. Has anybody ran into this glitch?

After being betrayed by Anora during her rescue, I refused to support her. Went to Landsmeet, made my arguments, and Anora comes out and says it's all lies and Loghain's the big hero. No big surpise there.

Here's the glitch. Nobles make final vote. Four favor the Wardens and two favor Loghain; yet, Loghain call for Warden's arest and then we fight.

I've play this twice and the vote is the same. Four to two in favor of the Wardens. Why is Loghain calling for my arest? Just wondering because I really dispise Anora.

Anora's vote counts as three votes. To beat her you have to get 5/6 of the spoken votes. There's also some wierdness with whether or not you kill or free Vaughan from Howe's prison- if I don't free him I still lose despite having as much non-Anora support as I can at the Landsmeet.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight, you have more faith in Fereldans' view of elves than I do. At the very least it would make the succession always in question, which it is anyway.

Re. the ending slides, I have gotten two different ones that have Alistair leaving the throne at some point. One, an HNF marries him ending where he is called to Weisshaupt, the other a marry-Anora-warden-rebuilds-GWs where he leaves to join her.

Re. how it gets out:  How does anything get out, especially when you are in power and thus have enemies?  Someone knows the truth, unless you think Maric set it all up by himself.  If they're called out on it publicly, do you see Alistair denying it?  Obviously it's all a hypothetical exercise.  I am hoping it is one we get to think about more, though.  

The reason I have issues with the slides is because they're the same if he's king alone or with Anora- I can't see him leaving the throne to rebuild the Wardens if he's the sole ruler or even if he marries someone besides Anora.

Spoiler!

Speaking of Anora, as I was playing around with my Spare Loghain ending last night, I had to think how SHE would react to Fiona being Alistair's mother. I can't imagine she would take it very well.

/Spoiler!

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't see Fereldans accepting a king of elven blood, even if technically the offspring is considered human.

Er, technically speaking Alistair is human. Elves + humans = humans. That's how it works. There are no half-races in Thedas. And like someone else said, it's not like there are a lot of Theirins waiting around to rule. I don't think Eamon was the only noble to feel the way he does about making sure a Theirin stays on the throne.

[Sandtigress]

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't see Fereldans accepting a king of elven blood, even if technically the offspring is considered human.

Er, technically speaking Alistair is human. Elves + humans = humans. That's how it works. There are no half-races in Thedas. And like someone else said, it's not like there are a lot of Theirins waiting around to rule. I don't think Eamon was the only noble to feel the way he does about making sure a Theirin stays on the throne.

There are half-dwarves, just not half-elfs.  Elves are supremely adaptable, which is why they quickened when they came into contact with humans and lost their immortality.

Elf+human = human
Elf+dwarf = dwarf
but human + dwarf = half-dwarf and one who is intermediate in height between both parents.  So a short human, or a tall dwarf, essentially.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't see Fereldans accepting a king of elven blood, even if technically the offspring is considered human.

Er, technically speaking Alistair is human. Elves + humans = humans. That's how it works. There are no half-races in Thedas. And like someone else said, it's not like there are a lot of Theirins waiting around to rule. I don't think Eamon was the only noble to feel the way he does about making sure a Theirin stays on the throne.

I know this.  Just don't see this "technicality" as being a balm in the minds of people who think elves are animals.  Even if Alistair keeps his throne, it would be an issue for the succession for any of his heirs.  Edit:  If his being a commoner is an issue for him taking the throne, you don't think that his being the son of a commoner elf mage would?

Modifié par Addai67, 03 mars 2010 - 04:03 .

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

The reason I have issues with the slides is because they're the same if he's king alone or with Anora- I can't see him leaving the throne to rebuild the Wardens if he's the sole ruler or even if he marries someone besides Anora.

He would have to have some impetus to leave the throne.  Before I had always assumed it was because there was an heir, so he felt justified in turning it over.  But it's certainly conceivable that some crisis could precipitate it. 

[Maria13]

I find the whole Fiona back story extremely interesting.



It makes Alistair a triple outcast/illegitimate mage elf

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't see Fereldans accepting a king of elven blood, even if technically the offspring is considered human.

Er, technically speaking Alistair is human. Elves + humans = humans. That's how it works. There are no half-races in Thedas. And like someone else said, it's not like there are a lot of Theirins waiting around to rule. I don't think Eamon was the only noble to feel the way he does about making sure a Theirin stays on the throne.

I know this.  Just don't see this "technicality" as being a balm in the minds of people who think elves are animals.  Even if Alistair keeps his throne, it would be an issue for the succession for any of his heirs.  Edit:  If his being a commoner is an issue for him taking the throne, you don't think that his being the son of a commoner elf mage would?

There are also a few indications that "some" would follow him because of his Theirin blood, but that it wouldn't be enough to win over the Landsmeet. Add that to the information you can get from the HN origin that Teryn Bryce had support to be Maric's successor over Cailan, and you can get an idea that blood alone isn't enough to secure and keep the throne.

I still think it's something that could be kept under wraps and between Fiona/Alistair/PC with minimal problems- as long as no one writes out a manifesto/confession, there's really no one alive who can connect her to Maric much less say that she had his child.

[Sandtigress]

I think anyone who knows has a vested interest in keeping it hidden. I mean, anyone who knows has known this entire time - the most likely person is Eamon. And since Eamon put Alistair on the throne, I don't think its possible for him to suddenly reveal information about his mother being an elf. If Eamon knew the whole time, then he should never have put Alistair on the throne - he'd lose the support of what nobles that he has right now.



It seems to me to be very possible to keep the information on a need to know basis. Would Alistair lie about it? I think he would, if he were convinced that the kingdom would be much worse off for knowing i.e. a civil war to determine who holds the crown should he think he were going to lose it.

[Addai]

Sandtigress wrote...

I think anyone who knows has a vested interest in keeping it hidden. I mean, anyone who knows has known this entire time - the most likely person is Eamon. And since Eamon put Alistair on the throne, I don't think its possible for him to suddenly reveal information about his mother being an elf. If Eamon knew the whole time, then he should never have put Alistair on the throne - he'd lose the support of what nobles that he has right now.

It gives a different feel to Eamon and Teagan's "are you sure" interaction when Eamon is first putting him forward. 

It seems to me to be very possible to keep the information on a need to know basis. Would Alistair lie about it? I think he would, if he were convinced that the kingdom would be much worse off for knowing i.e. a civil war to determine who holds the crown should he think he were going to lose it.

Wanting to prevent a war is why I think Alistair would, in this situation, try to make a discreet and orderly hand-over rather than risk having it come out and becoming a huge scandal.  They could use their Grey Warden duty as a pretext.  If there wasn't a good candidate to hand the throne over to, that would make it more difficult to do, of course.

And naturally, this is all very hypothetical and the writers may make it a moot discussion!

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...
 

It seems to me to be very possible to keep the information on a need to know basis. Would Alistair lie about it? I think he would, if he were convinced that the kingdom would be much worse off for knowing i.e. a civil war to determine who holds the crown should he think he were going to lose it.

Wanting to prevent a war is why I think Alistair would, in this situation, try to make a discreet and orderly hand-over rather than risk having it come out and becoming a huge scandal.  They could use their Grey Warden duty as a pretext.  If there wasn't a good candidate to hand the throne over to, that would make it more difficult to do, of course.

Maybe this is why there's no definite answer on what happens with Anora if you make Alistair king without her?

[jpdipity]

I don't think that it would be that big a deal if it was discovered that Alistair's mother is an elf.

Although elves are treated as second-hand citizens with little respect, having sex with elves appears to be customary and even expected among nobles as evidenced both in the noble orgin, the city elf orgin, Katriel's story & Fiona's own background.  It seems to me that quite logically, and probably quite frequently, a bastard in Fereldan has an elven mother. 

Alistair has already been accepted as the "bastard" son with no questions posed about his mother.   If it had been a concern, it would have been one before winning support to crown him.

Maric had to be pressed by Fiona to do things this way.  He must have believed at some point that his son could rule despite his lineage.  Sending him to Eamon provided the child some distance from it all, but still kept him close enough to return as king if necessary.  Alistair potentially needing to step into this role was clearly a plan laid out either to or by Eamon long before it was realized.

I believe that the love for a strong king and the legacy of his family's name will keep him on the throne despite the possible scandal.  On the other hand, Alistair will likely be subjected to snickering behind closed doors by those who already oppose him and it could be used to overthrow him if he is seen as a poor king for other reasons.

Modifié par jpdipity, 03 mars 2010 - 08:34 .

[Sandtigress]

I would suspect Maric's decision had very little to do with a king thinking of future heirs and more just a good man wanting to look out for his son. I would suspect the idea probably didn't even occur to him before Fiona brought it up that the boy would be potentially considered an heir to the throne - not that he wouldn't have thought of it soon, but it wasn't the first thing on his mind.



I still think the fact that Eamon told Alistair of his heritage was either part of a scheme to plan for the possibility of putting forth a weak heir to the throne (undermine the boy's confidence so that should the chance arrive Eamon would be the only logical choice for advisor and through Alistair Eamon essentially rules Ferelden) or just bad circumstance and the boy decides he wants to know who his father really is after being teased one too many times, and Eamon caves. Whew, try to say all that in one breath!

[SurelyForth]

jpdipity wrote...

I don't think that it would be that big a deal if it was discovered that Alistair's mother is an elf.

Although elves are treated as second-hand citizens with little respect, having sex with elves appears to be customary and even expected among nobles as evidenced both in the noble orgin, the city elf orgin, Katriel's story & Fiona's own background.  It seems to me that quite logically, and probably quite frequently, a bastard in Fereldan has an elven mother. 

Alistair has already been accepted as the "bastard" son with no questions posed about his mother.   If it had been a concern, it would have been one before winning support to crown him.

I think you're being very optimistic. Humans have had a long history of this sort of double standard- objectifying oppressed people yet steadfastly maintaining the state of oppression. The allure of elves is physical, but part of it is also the power differential that exists between most humans and all but the highest class elves. Even a commoner can look down on an elf, even if they're in pretty much the same economic boat. Once you acknowledge a known elf-blooded person in a position of power, that gap between races closes just a little bit and those who are comfortable with and flourishing under the status quo get nervous. 

Here is a quote from David Gaider that indicates elf-bloodedness is an issue:

 David Gaider wrote...

Many elves resist having human children for cultural reasons, and many elf-blooded children will live amongst humans as full humans simply because they can get away with it and hiding their heritage means not having to suffer for it -- from humans as well as elves.

This doesn't even address the whole mage can of worms.

I still think the fact that Eamon told Alistair of his heritage was either part of a scheme to plan for the possibility of putting forth a weak heir to the throne (undermine the boy's confidence so that should the chance arrive Eamon would be the only logical choice for advisor and through Alistair Eamon essentially rules Ferelden) or just bad circumstance and the boy decides he wants to know who his father really is after being teased one too many times, and Eamon caves. Whew, try to say all that in one breath!

I agree. I think Eamon had plans for Alistair. errant_knight mentioned something Alistair says when he tells you about Maric being his father, how he had been told that there was no room for him "raising rebellions". Since I'm pretty sure the Chantry wouldn't be telling him things like that, I can only imagine Eamon indoctrining him as a child. His treating Alistair like a human grey area- potentially important enough to protect but not currently important enough to really care about, was be a good way to create the perfect political puppet (and he succeeds if you don't harden him or become his Chancellor).

Modifié par SurelyForth, 03 mars 2010 - 09:48 .

[Monica21]

The only person in-game that we know knows that Alistair has an elven mother (if she is his mother) is Loghain. Maybe it would have added too much to the story, but he's also the only person who has a vested interest in Alistair's parentage if it was an issue. The fact that Loghain never mentions when it may or may not have caused issue among the nobles and he was not only trying to save the throne for his daughter but his own neck as well speaks to two things: either it didn't matter or Fiona isn't his mother. (Or they left it out due to game length reasons, but that's not as interesting.)

[Addai]

Do we know that Loghain knew? I remember Maric says "Loghain won't like this," but I also seem to remember (don't have the books handy) that Fiona cut that off by saying she wanted to protect their son from both their legacies. Implying that Loghain might never have known about it. It does seem, however, that at least Eamon would have had to know, if he helped arrange a cover story about a serving girl in his castle.

[Sandtigress]

No, I don't believe Loghain knew. The book specifically mentions him being at Gwaren at the time, and Maric hiding Fiona and Duncan's visit from his knowledge, even forbidding the chamberlain from mentioning it.



My suspicion is that Loghain had no idea about the bastard child until some time later, and that Maric covered Fiona's involvement by either allowing Loghain to believe that the child was conceived while Rowan was alive with a servant girl, or he actively created the story to protect Fiona.

[Monica21]

I don't have the books handy either, but I thought Maric and Loghain talked about it. Maybe not though, and I'm only inserting Loghain into another conversation.

edit: Okay then. Just letting my imagination get the better of me. Not the first time!

Modifié par Monica21, 03 mars 2010 - 11:21 .

[Nonvita]

My question about that (and I haven't read the books, only lots of spoilers, so bear with me) is that Alistair's age would have been a couple years different depending on whether he was the servant's child or Fiona's, correct? If that's true, then at what age did Loghain first meet Alistair? A 2 year old and 4 year old are drastically different developmentally, so it seems like it would have been obvious if he were a different age... If Loghain didn't know who his mother was, then how was he fooled?

[SurelyForth]

Nonvita wrote...

My question about that (and I haven't read the books, only lots of spoilers, so bear with me) is that Alistair's age would have been a couple years different depending on whether he was the servant's child or Fiona's, correct? If that's true, then at what age did Loghain first meet Alistair? A 2 year old and 4 year old are drastically different developmentally, so it seems like it would have been obvious if he were a different age... If Loghain didn't know who his mother was, then how was he fooled?

There would have been a 2 year minimum for the age discrepancy. Once he was with Eamon, it's entirely possible that Loghain would have never seen him. Redcliffe and Gwaren aren't close and Loghain doesn't strike me as the sort to be social. The biggest issue would be when Eamon brought Alistair to Denerim. 

It's also possible that Maric used Rowan as an excuse even after her death. I got the impression that Loghain would be the sort who would feel even two or three years is too soon for someone to move on after the loss of a spouse.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 03 mars 2010 - 11:32 .

[Sandtigress]

DG has said that Loghain never really bothered to talk much to Alistair, and while that comment was made in a slightly different context (I marvelled that Loghain never noticed how much like Maric Alistair is) I think it does go to show that Loghain never knew enough about him for a few years age difference to really matter.





Loghain tells you that Maric never acknowledged Alistair because it would a) have muddled Cailan's claim to the throne and out of respect for Rowan, who would have been seen as a mere concubine. I believe Alistair's codex states that he was hidden with Eamon to protect him from Rowan's wrath should she find out (though given her sorrowful acceptance of his relationship with Katriel, I'm not sure how valid an excuse that would be - of course, they were neither married nor had they had a child with the whole Katriel thing, which does change how a person would react).

[jpdipity]

Sandtigress wrote...

I would suspect Maric's decision had very little to do with a king thinking of future heirs and more just a good man wanting to look out for his son. I would suspect the idea probably didn't even occur to him before Fiona brought it up that the boy would be potentially considered an heir to the throne - not that he wouldn't have thought of it soon, but it wasn't the first thing on his mind.

You may be right.  On the other hand,  I think Maric was a very dutiful king.  He did what he thought his mother would do which meant always putting Fereldan first and often at the expense of his own happiness.   If the elven mother issue was insurmountable, I don't think Maric would have welcomed the child as an heir or not.  The fact that he was not instantly angered or upset that she had a child makes me think that it simply was not an issue of great concern.  I think he struggled with the decision not to have the child in his life and ultimately does it for Fiona.  He even states "was being of elven blood truly so terrible?" as if he doesn't even understand why Fiona would not want the son to know of his elven heritage.