1287 réponses à ce sujet

[Nonvita]

SurelyForth wrote...

There would have been a 2 year
minimum for the age discrepancy. Once he was with Eamon, it's entirely
possible that Loghain would have never seen him. Redcliffe and Gwaren
aren't close and Loghain doesn't strike me as the sort to be social.
The biggest issue would be when Eamon brought Alistair to Denerim. 

Sandtigress wrote...

DG has said that Loghain never really bothered to talk much to Alistair, and while that comment was made in a slightly different context (I marvelled that Loghain never noticed how much like Maric Alistair is) I think it does go to show that Loghain never knew enough about him for a few years age difference to really matter.

Ahh, I see. Mind you, I do like to think Alistair is Fiona's son, that one aspect just seemed a little weird to me. But that makes sense if there was little contact between them.

You know, they're doing an awfully good job at keeping us confused on this issue!

[galesong1234]

Sandtigress wrote...

I think anyone who knows has a vested interest in keeping it hidden. I mean, anyone who knows has known this entire time - the most likely person is Eamon. And since Eamon put Alistair on the throne, I don't think its possible for him to suddenly reveal information about his mother being an elf. If Eamon knew the whole time, then he should never have put Alistair on the throne - he'd lose the support of what nobles that he has right now.

It seems to me to be very possible to keep the information on a need to know basis. Would Alistair lie about it? I think he would, if he were convinced that the kingdom would be much worse off for knowing i.e. a civil war to determine who holds the crown should he think he were going to lose it.

I really can't see Alistair lying even for the sake of the kingdom.  It's not in his nature. However, I could see him step down and relinquish his crown though.

[Sandtigress]

He lies to the Orlesian Wardens about how he and the other Warden survive. ;-)

[SurelyForth]

galesong1234 wrote...

I really can't see Alistair lying even for the sake of the kingdom.  It's not in his nature. However, I could see him step down and relinquish his crown though.

Hmm, he's not a liar, but he's not above obfuscation (prime example- his avoidance of a straight answer when you ask him if he knows who his father is). 

Ha! Good point, Sandtigress! 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 02:38 .

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

galesong1234 wrote...

I really can't see Alistair lying even for the sake of the kingdom.  It's not in his nature. However, I could see him step down and relinquish his crown though.

Hmm, he's not a liar, but he's not above obfuscation (prime example- his avoidance of a straight answer when you ask him if he knows who his father is). 

Ha! Good point, Sandtigress! 

To Anora? I don't think so. Not hardened Alistair anyway.

Side note: I just got some very charming dialogue between Alistair and Wynne that I hadn't heard before...
'What would you do if someone told you that they loved you, Wynne?'
Then there's some back and forth before Wynne says 'It depends, does this person love you too? I need some context, Alistair.'
"Well, I don't know...maybe. They spend a lot of time together....'

It goes on from there and is very cute.

[SurelyForth]

errant_knight wrote...

To Anora? I don't think so. Not hardened Alistair anyway.

Side note: I just got some very charming dialogue between Alistair and Wynne that I hadn't heard before...
'What would you do if someone told you that they loved you, Wynne?'
Then there's some back and forth before Wynne says 'It depends, does this person love you too? I need some context, Alistair.'
"Well, I don't know...maybe. They spend a lot of time together....'

It goes on from there and is very cute.

He does name her his heir, and he doesn't think she's a terrible ruler. It's unlikely, but not out of the question.

I think he's lean more towards Eamon (boo hiss). I would push for Fergus (although, awesome as he is, I can't see Fergus as king).

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 02:52 .

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

To Anora? I don't think so. Not hardened Alistair anyway.

Side note: I just got some very charming dialogue between Alistair and Wynne that I hadn't heard before...
'What would you do if someone told you that they loved you, Wynne?'
Then there's some back and forth before Wynne says 'It depends, does this person love you too? I need some context, Alistair.'
"Well, I don't know...maybe. They spend a lot of time together....'

It goes on from there and is very cute.

He does name her his heir, and he doesn't think she's a terrible ruler. It's unlikely, but not out of the question.

I think he's lean more towards Eamon (boo hiss). I would push for Fergus (although, awesome as he is, I can't see Fergus as king).

No, I still don't think so. He's a Therin. He's accepted the responsibility as his. I don't see him giving it up to anyone at this point, especially someone who isn't a blood heir.

[Sandtigress]

Hehe I love that banter. And the one he has with Leliana about wooing the PC.



I would say that hardened Alistair thinks he would be a better ruler than Anora, but that he doesn't fail to acknowledge that Anora is a good ruler. Pre-Landsmeet, he says that Anora is a good ruler, but that her problem - and Loghain's - is that they think they're the only ones who can solve all the world's problems. And hardened Alistair also names her his heir should he fall in battle, as SurelyForth says.



Now, whether Alistair would pass the throne to her just because of his parentage...I still don't think he would. If he had no other choice, perhaps.

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

To Anora? I don't think so. Not hardened Alistair anyway.

Side note: I just got some very charming dialogue between Alistair and Wynne that I hadn't heard before...
'What would you do if someone told you that they loved you, Wynne?'
Then there's some back and forth before Wynne says 'It depends, does this person love you too? I need some context, Alistair.'
"Well, I don't know...maybe. They spend a lot of time together....'

It goes on from there and is very cute.

He does name her his heir, and he doesn't think she's a terrible ruler. It's unlikely, but not out of the question.

I think he's lean more towards Eamon (boo hiss). I would push for Fergus (although, awesome as he is, I can't see Fergus as king).

Even hardened, he will say if he's sacrificing himself that she is a better ruler than he would be.  Unhardened, he's a bit harder on himself there.

[SurelyForth]

errant_knight wrote...

No, I still don't think so. He's a Therin. He's accepted the responsibility as his. I don't see him giving it up to anyone at this point, especially someone who isn't a blood heir.

He's accepted it but I don't think he's embraced it. I think he'll do as good a job as he can but always rather be doing something else. I honestly believe if he was Fiona's son and were it to get out and cause more fighting amongst the nobility, he would put his country first and step down.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 03:03 .

[errant_knight]

He also says that Anora isn't an option during the landsmeet, although he reconsiders enough to keep her around in case he dies, as an alternative to civil war. I think him being dead is the only set of circumstances that would cause him to pass the throne to her--or anyone else, for that matter. Once Alistair make a decision, he doesn't waffle.

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

No, I still don't think so. He's a Therin. He's accepted the responsibility as his. I don't see him giving it up to anyone at this point, especially someone who isn't a blood heir.

He's accepted it but I don't think he's embraced it. I think he'll do as good a job as he can but always rather be doing something else. I honestly believe if he was Fiona's son and were it to get out and cause more fighting amongst the nobility, he would put his country first and step down.

Sorry for the double post, but copy/paste has stopped working on my keyboard....

Once he's hardened, I think he has embraced it. He rejects the possibility of Anora outright, unless he dies. I think he sees it as his duty to Fereldan, and I don't see him stepping aside. If hereditary monarchs do that for people not of the bloodline, pretty soon you don't have hereditary monarchs. He'd open the door to a civil war every time someone has a gripe.

[SurelyForth]

errant_knight wrote...

Sorry for the double post, but copy/paste has stopped working on my keyboard....

Once he's hardened, I think he has embraced it. He rejects the possibility of Anora outright, unless he dies. I think he sees it as his duty to Fereldan, and I don't see him stepping aside. If hereditary monarchs do that for people not of the bloodline, pretty soon you don't have hereditary monarchs. He'd open the door to a civil war every time someone has a gripe.

But do you think he would risk civil war to keep himself on the throne? If he was that concerned about the Theirin bloodline
then I don't think he would marry the Warden, knowing what he knows about the incredibly slim chances they'll have of conceiving.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 03:34 .

[pudi0072000]

errant_knight wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

No, I still don't think so. He's a Therin. He's accepted the responsibility as his. I don't see him giving it up to anyone at this point, especially someone who isn't a blood heir.

He's accepted it but I don't think he's embraced it. I think he'll do as good a job as he can but always rather be doing something else. I honestly believe if he was Fiona's son and were it to get out and cause more fighting amongst the nobility, he would put his country first and step down.

Sorry for the double post, but copy/paste has stopped working on my keyboard....

Once he's hardened, I think he has embraced it. He rejects the possibility of Anora outright, unless he dies. I think he sees it as his duty to Fereldan, and I don't see him stepping aside. If hereditary monarchs do that for people not of the bloodline, pretty soon you don't have hereditary monarchs. He'd open the door to a civil war every time someone has a gripe.

On my last game, I hardened Alistair and had planned on making him King (told Anora I wouldn't support her), but  ultimately didn't go through with it. He went through his whole "Make ME King!!" thing and pouted when Anora told him to give up his claim to the throne. I was sure I'd get yelled out when I went back to camp, but when I talked to him he actually thanked me for not making him King. I asked what he thought about Anora being Queen and he said he was barely all right with it, but it was "better her than me." I thought that was a little odd, so I went back to the Landsmeet and tried all of the dialogue options I could, and eventually got him to say that it's his duty as a Grey Warden to become King and ensure that someone finally takes the Blight seriously.

Duty is a big thing for him, and it seems to me that he tries to incorporate his love of the Grey Wardens into his duties as a King.

I also don't see him just stepping down if he were King and hardened, and he's sure not going to let anyone push him around (his vehemence that Anora's got another thing coming if she thinks he's going to roll over, if you choose to have them marry are a good indication of that). BUT, I also agree that he'd much rather be off fighting darkspawn than ruling.


As to whether he'd name Anora his heir: He does say Anora was a good ruler, but he doesn't trust her any more than Loghain... I'm thinking he only named her temporary heir should he fall in battle, but once the immediate threat was over, he'd revoke that and get to work on having a legitimate heir, or at least someone more trustworthy in his eyes.

Stepping down if there was an uproar over his possible heritage... Not so sure on that one. I guess it would depend on the circumstances and how much support he thought he had and just how badly he really wanted to keep ruling.

Modifié par pudi0072000, 04 mars 2010 - 03:36 .

[Sandtigress]

I think if he thought there was someone capable of taking over and doing a good job, he'd turn the throne over if necessary, maybe even gladly. But seeing as how the only person he would trust enough right now is probably the Warden, and its not all that likely that anyone else is going to come along in the next few years who is suitable, I don't see it as all that likely.

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Sorry for the double post, but copy/paste has stopped working on my keyboard....

Once he's hardened, I think he has embraced it. He rejects the possibility of Anora outright, unless he dies. I think he sees it as his duty to Fereldan, and I don't see him stepping aside. If hereditary monarchs do that for people not of the bloodline, pretty soon you don't have hereditary monarchs. He'd open the door to a civil war every time someone has a gripe.

But do you think he would risk civil war to keep himself on the throne? If he was that concerned about the Theirin bloodline
then I don't think he would marry the Warden, knowing what he knows about the incredibly slim chances they'll have of conceiving.

And he won't, unless you convince him to by suggesting it in front of the Landsmeet, for exactly that reason.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 mars 2010 - 04:11 .

[nos_astra]

But do you think he would risk civil war to keep himself on the throne?

The Landsmeet during the Blight is a unique thing, I suppose. I don't think it is actually that easy to abdicate and leave the throne to someone else. If it was Alistair wouldn't be so concerned about the whole heir thing. Obviously naming someone your heir is a cause for unrest in itselfs because high ranking nobles want their own candidates on or near the throne.

If Fiona is confirmed to be Alistair's mother it'll have to be a secret. A secret that is not difficult to keep since only Fiona and Alistair (maybe the PC) will know. Eamon may know that the maid was not Alistair's mother but he needn't know who his true mother is. And Alistair certainly won't tell Anora (when married).

Alistair may be ok with not being king or even prefer it, he will sacrifice himself in order to save his love and leave the throne to Anora, but I think after his coronation he will do what he has to do. He will lie to avert civil war.

I love to think that after some years (hardened) Alistair will realize that things are not black and white but grey. Maybe he'll even wonder if he was to hard judging Loghain and Anora.

Unhardened he will probably run to Eamon or the PC and let them decide to keep it a secret.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 mars 2010 - 10:25 .

[Sabriana]

Not to change the subject, but I have a quick question. My PC hardens Alistair all the time, and marries him off to Anora (because her on the throne alone is shudder-worthy imo). Now, in my play-throughs, I get the epilogue that Eamon leaves, but I've read other posts where it is said he remains in Denerim to help Alistair.

Is my game glitched? I always thought Eamon leaves because Anora sticks in his craw.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Not to change the subject, but I have a quick question. My PC hardens Alistair all the time, and marries him off to Anora (because her on the throne alone is shudder-worthy imo). Now, in my play-throughs, I get the epilogue that Eamon leaves, but I've read other posts where it is said he remains in Denerim to help Alistair.
Is my game glitched? I always thought Eamon leaves because Anora sticks in his craw.

No, that's not a glitch.  Eamon goes back when Anora and Alistair marry OR when the Warden becomes chancellor.  Alistair needs a strong chancellor, and that will either be Anora, Eamon, or the Warden.  And Eamon will stay in Denerim with a Cousland marriage unless the princess consort asks to serve the crown as well and becomes his Chancellor.  This has nothing to do with romance status or hardening.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mars 2010 - 12:29 .

[SurelyForth]

Last night I finished one of the games that I am going to carry over into Awakening and I realized something about Alistair that he really doesn't get a lot of credit for (especially from those who prefer Zevran). If you end the game in a relationship with him, he is so very up front with his affection for the Warden and you can get a pretty solid commit without solicitation. With Zev and Leliana, you sort of have to lead them to you while he'll come out and say, when asked what his plans are, that he'll be where you are, as long as you'll have him. It's the same sort of resolution that he has if you ask him where he sees your relationship going after he's been made king (and he's hardened), but it still sheds a lot of light on how much the Blght and everything else weighed on him.

I also discovered last night that, when he's breaking up with you, once he says "Don't you think that would be unfair..." you lose more approval if you agree with him* versus telling him he should do what he wants.

*This yields the biggest falter I think he has the entire game- I was half expecting him to interrupt himself and say "Screw it, I'm keeping you, whether you want me to or not."

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 03:04 .

[Monica21]

SurelyForth wrote...

Last night I finished one of the games that I am going to carry over into Awakening and I realized something about Alistair that he really doesn't get a lot of credit for (especially from those who prefer Zevran). If you end the game in a relationship with him, he is so very up front with his affection for the Warden and you can get a pretty solid commit without solicitation. With Zev and Leliana, you sort of have to lead them to you while he'll come out and say, when asked what his plans are, that he'll be where you are, as long as you'll have him. It's the same sort of resolution that he has if you ask him where he sees your relationship going after he's been made king (and he's hardened), but it still sheds a lot of light on how much the Blght and everything else weighed on him.

I'm glad you brought this up. There seems to be some general feeling that the Alistair romance (or Alistair himself) is very shallow since he is so easy to romance and because he'll break up with the Warden and that's just not what I get out of it at all. He's been burdened by his father his entire life and dismissed by people around him. If anything, I think he's written to be much more shallow than he actually is. The process by which you harden one of the most important NPCs shouldn't be a single line of poorly written dialogue.

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

Last night I finished one of the games that I am going to carry over into Awakening and I realized something about Alistair that he really doesn't get a lot of credit for (especially from those who prefer Zevran). If you end the game in a relationship with him, he is so very up front with his affection for the Warden and you can get a pretty solid commit without solicitation. With Zev and Leliana, you sort of have to lead them to you while he'll come out and say, when asked what his plans are, that he'll be where you are, as long as you'll have him. It's the same sort of resolution that he has if you ask him where he sees your relationship going after he's been made king (and he's hardened), but it still sheds a lot of light on how much the Blght and everything else weighed on him.

SurelyForth, I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but it's interesting.  Where does Alistair commit to the warden, though?  I always got the opposite impression, to be honest.  He's very upfront with his feelings, but I've never actually seen a commitment.  I've seen more from Alistair saying he can't know WHAT'S going to happen, and in fact, have had him offer to break up with my Warden because he doesn't really see them able to stay together in the future (that is, if you ask him where its going AFTER Eamon says he's going to put Alistair forward as king).

Leliana is also very upfront with her feelings.  She declares them to the Warden, in fact, and gets a bit upset in a very cute way that she had to say it first.  Zevran doesn't fall in love until later in the game, but in many ways he expresses deeper feelings by sharing some pretty horrific stuff with a warden he's in a romance with.

I'm not trying to take away from the Alistair romance.  I think it's beautiful and sweet and very heady and innocent.  I hope you don't mind me asking for clarification. Because that is one of the few things I've never gotten from the Alistair romance at all.

Alistair does court the warden.  He asks if he can, basically, then does so.  I wouldn't expect that same dynamic from either Leliana or Zevran, though.  Leliana, because, well, I get the feeling she would like to be the one who is courted, and Zevran, because, well, that is not really what that romance is about.  He's fighting falling in love, not trying to build a love relationship.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mars 2010 - 03:11 .

[ejoslin]

I hope I've never given the impression that I think the Alistair romance is shallow. It most definitely is not. It's ill-fated for sure. It's very heartbreaking. I do say that Alistair is living for the moment at the beginning of the relationship, and when he falls in love (and he DOES fall, and falls hard) is when reality hits him. Even then, when he knows the relationship cannot work, he cannot bring himself to break up with the warden (with a few exceptions) because he loves her that much.



His willingness to stay with the warden, even when married to someone else, shows the absolute depth of his feelings as it goes against EVERYTHING he thinks is right. His refusal when not hardened also shows the same thing, really, but from a different point of view.

[SurelyForth]

I'm talking strictly post-coronation Alistair vs. Leliana and Zevran- it's how he is after the Blight and the throne is settled. When you talk to him, after you go through the Morrigan conversation and he says that he can't wait to be alone with you, you can ask what his plans are. He'll say (paraphrase) "I'll be wherever you are, as long as you'll have me." He has variations based on whether he's king or not, but the gist is the same- that he is very much looking forward to being with the PC for the long-term.

I think, as I sort of alluded to in my post above, that it comes up in how he views his decision to break-up with the Warden after the Landsmeet. There's no immediate reason for him to end the relationship (unless he's engaged to Anora), but he doesn't want to continue the relationship if he knows he can't commit to it. If you get him to see that he can commit in another way, he latches on to that (and it's still a long-term thing for him- there's no "Well, we can be a couple until I get married." it's "If I exit this conversation we're having and we're still together, I'm never going to end it.").

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 03:32 .

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

I'm talking strictly post-coronation Alistair vs. Leliana and Zevran- it's how he is after the Blight and the throne is settled. When you talk to him, after you go through the Morrigan conversation and he says that he can't wait to be alone with you, you can ask what his plans are. He'll say (paraphrase) "I'll be wherever you are, as long as you'll have me." He has variations based on whether he's king or not, but the gist is the same- that he is very much looking forward to being with the PC for the long-term.

I think, as I sort of alluded to in my post above, that it comes up in how he views his decision to break-up with the Warden after the Landsmeet. There's no immediate reason for him to end the relationship (unless he's engaged to Anora), but he doesn't want to continue the relationship if he knows he can't commit to it. If you get him to see that he can commit in another way, he latches on to that (and it's still a long-term thing for him- there's no "Well, we can be a couple until I get married." it's "If I exit this conversation we're having and we're still together, I'm never going to end it.").

Ah, then you're taking away a bit from the Zevran romance, because he also commits to the warden.  Not only with (if you go this way) a proposal, but with him asking the warden if he can accompany him/her.  Of course, he asks whether friend or lover, but he gives his reasons, with a romance partner, as being his feelings for him/her. Leliana does as well, actually.  All three of the romances that I've done end up feeling very real, very true.  Zevran to me comes across as deeper, but you have to keep in mind he's the only one who has the real luxury of having no focus except the warden after he falls in love.  Alistair and also Leliana (depending on a lot of things) do not have that.  

The only issue I have with the Alistair breakup, really, is that it's done in a crowded room.  Everything else about it I understand, and again, it goes to how much he loves the warden.  Like most things about the romance, he leads with his heart, not with his head, obviously.