1287 réponses à ce sujet

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

Ah, then you're taking away a bit from the Zevran romance, because he also commits to the warden.  Not only with (if you go this way) a proposal, but with him asking the warden if he can accompany him/her.  Of course, he asks whether friend or lover, but he gives his reasons, with a romance partner, as being his feelings for him/her. Leliana does as well, actually.  All three of the romances that I've done end up feeling very real, very true.  Zevran to me comes across as deeper, but you have to keep in mind he's the only one who has the real luxury of having no focus except the warden after he falls in love.  Alistair and also Leliana (depending on a lot of things) do not have that.  

The only issue I have with the Alistair breakup, really, is that it's done in a crowded room.  Everything else about it I understand, and again, it goes to how much he loves the warden.  Like most things about the romance, he leads with his heart, not with his head, obviously.

I know Zevran commits to the Warden with a proposal and by following him/her. I'm not taking away from him or Leliana, really.  I'm just saying that, in the end, if you are in a relationship with Alistair, he stays with you without any prodding or asking. It's just going to happen. Leliana and Zev both have to be confirmed/reassured and, given that many people think Alistair fails on the committment front, it's interesting.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 03:58 .

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ah, then you're taking away a bit from the Zevran romance, because he also commits to the warden.  Not only with (if you go this way) a proposal, but with him asking the warden if he can accompany him/her.  Of course, he asks whether friend or lover, but he gives his reasons, with a romance partner, as being his feelings for him/her. Leliana does as well, actually.  All three of the romances that I've done end up feeling very real, very true.  Zevran to me comes across as deeper, but you have to keep in mind he's the only one who has the real luxury of having no focus except the warden after he falls in love.  Alistair and also Leliana (depending on a lot of things) do not have that.  

The only issue I have with the Alistair breakup, really, is that it's done in a crowded room.  Everything else about it I understand, and again, it goes to how much he loves the warden.  Like most things about the romance, he leads with his heart, not with his head, obviously.

I know Zevran commits to the Warden with a proposal and by following him/her. I'm not taking away from him or Leliana, really.  I'm just saying that, in the end, if you are in a relationship with Alistair, he stays with you without any prodding or asking. It's just going to happen. Leliana and Zev both have to be confirmed/reassured and, given that many people think Alistair fails on the committment front, it's interesting.

Ah, but the difference is, of course, that was already established immediately following the Landsmeet if he's made king, whether the relationship will continue.  With Zevran and Leliana, it isn't until the post-coronation ceremony.

[errant_knight]

Not here, guys, okay? Take it to the Alistair vs Zevran thread.

[ejoslin]

That thread died awhile ago, unfortunately. I don't know, though. I THOUGHT I said nice things about the Alistair romance. It does have a lot of beauty to it.

Edit: but ok.  /waves white flag.  I'll stay out unless I convert to Alistair fandom!  There IS a lot to squee about him as well 

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mars 2010 - 04:25 .

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I'm talking strictly post-coronation Alistair vs. Leliana and Zevran- it's how he is after the Blight and the throne is settled. When you talk to him, after you go through the Morrigan conversation and he says that he can't wait to be alone with you, you can ask what his plans are. He'll say (paraphrase) "I'll be wherever you are, as long as you'll have me." He has variations based on whether he's king or not, but the gist is the same- that he is very much looking forward to being with the PC for the long-term.

I think, as I sort of alluded to in my post above, that it comes up in how he views his decision to break-up with the Warden after the Landsmeet. There's no immediate reason for him to end the relationship (unless he's engaged to Anora), but he doesn't want to continue the relationship if he knows he can't commit to it. If you get him to see that he can commit in another way, he latches on to that (and it's still a long-term thing for him- there's no "Well, we can be a couple until I get married." it's "If I exit this conversation we're having and we're still together, I'm never going to end it.").

Ah, then you're taking away a bit from the Zevran romance, because he also commits to the warden.  Not only with (if you go this way) a proposal, but with him asking the warden if he can accompany him/her.  Of course, he asks whether friend or lover, but he gives his reasons, with a romance partner, as being his feelings for him/her. Leliana does as well, actually.  All three of the romances that I've done end up feeling very real, very true.  Zevran to me comes across as deeper, but you have to keep in mind he's the only one who has the real luxury of having no focus except the warden after he falls in love.  Alistair and also Leliana (depending on a lot of things) do not have that.  

The only issue I have with the Alistair breakup, really, is that it's done in a crowded room.  Everything else about it I understand, and again, it goes to how much he loves the warden.  Like most things about the romance, he leads with his heart, not with his head, obviously.

Just two things here: I know the public breakup is difficult, but how else could it really be done? The country is in the middle of a civil war and an elf/mage/dwarf stating that they will "rule beside" the King isn't going to sit well with anyone. Yeah, it sucks finding out the hard way, but it may be just enough for the nobles to withdraw support from Alistair. They won't accept anyone who isn't a human noble on the throne. It's just the way it is.

As for Alistair's commitment level, he doesn't lie to you. He hedges if you think things are going to work out better than they are and his honesty if you say you don't know where things will go is refreshing. An important thing to keep in mind is that Zevran has far more freedom to act as he wishes than Alistair does. I think you pretty much said that, but I wanted to restate it.

edit: Sorry, errant, you're right. Last post about that in this thread.

Modifié par Monica21, 04 mars 2010 - 04:29 .

[ejoslin]

Monica21, your points are EXACTLY what I said (well, except the breakup). Please, no one yell at me any more. It makes me sad Even when I say nice things about Alistair, no one believes me!

Edit: I like Alistair.  I like the romance, believe it or not!  And now, I think I will go and reopen the Ali Vs. Zev thread.  Hopefully it gets activity because I love the comparisons!

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mars 2010 - 04:35 .

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

I'm talking strictly post-coronation Alistair vs. Leliana and Zevran- it's how he is after the Blight and the throne is settled. When you talk to him, after you go through the Morrigan conversation and he says that he can't wait to be alone with you, you can ask what his plans are. He'll say (paraphrase) "I'll be wherever you are, as long as you'll have me." He has variations based on whether he's king or not, but the gist is the same- that he is very much looking forward to being with the PC for the long-term.

He does?  I missed that line somehow!  Must replay! 

[Freckles04]

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I'm talking strictly post-coronation Alistair vs. Leliana and Zevran- it's how he is after the Blight and the throne is settled. When you talk to him, after you go through the Morrigan conversation and he says that he can't wait to be alone with you, you can ask what his plans are. He'll say (paraphrase) "I'll be wherever you are, as long as you'll have me." He has variations based on whether he's king or not, but the gist is the same- that he is very much looking forward to being with the PC for the long-term.

He does?  I missed that line somehow!  Must replay! 

I've only gotten it on the one playthrough that I didn't make him King. It was quite sweet.

[Monica21]

My current playthrough is my "selfish" playthrough. Not going to harden Alistair and going to run off with him at the end. Anora can have her throne. I haven't played that ending since the first one, so it'll be interesting to see it again.

[Addai]

Freckles04 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I'm talking strictly post-coronation Alistair vs. Leliana and Zevran- it's how he is after the Blight and the throne is settled. When you talk to him, after you go through the Morrigan conversation and he says that he can't wait to be alone with you, you can ask what his plans are. He'll say (paraphrase) "I'll be wherever you are, as long as you'll have me." He has variations based on whether he's king or not, but the gist is the same- that he is very much looking forward to being with the PC for the long-term.

He does?  I missed that line somehow!  Must replay! 

I've only gotten it on the one playthrough that I didn't make him King. It was quite sweet.

Aha.  I really should do another playthrough where I don't harden him and don't make him king.  I haven't had the stomach to do it since my very first, ridiculously awful character.  But...


book spoiler...


...if he really is Fiona and Maric's son, it is actually more what they had in mind for him.  Then again, they couldn't have anticipated Cailan dying so young and without an heir (and with Loghain's help no less... it really is a good thing Maric didn't live to see these things).  I just can't stomach Alistair disclaiming the throne after all that.  Oh well, squee is not everything.  *she tells herself little lies*  LOL

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

Freckles04 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I'm talking strictly post-coronation Alistair vs. Leliana and Zevran- it's how he is after the Blight and the throne is settled. When you talk to him, after you go through the Morrigan conversation and he says that he can't wait to be alone with you, you can ask what his plans are. He'll say (paraphrase) "I'll be wherever you are, as long as you'll have me." He has variations based on whether he's king or not, but the gist is the same- that he is very much looking forward to being with the PC for the long-term.

He does?  I missed that line somehow!  Must replay! 

I've only gotten it on the one playthrough that I didn't make him King. It was quite sweet.

Aha.  I really should do another playthrough where I don't harden him and don't make him king.  I haven't had the stomach to do it since my very first, ridiculously awful character.  But...


book spoiler...


...if he really is Fiona and Maric's son, it is actually more what they had in mind for him.  Then again, they couldn't have anticipated Cailan dying so young and without an heir (and with Loghain's help no less... it really is a good thing Maric didn't live to see these things).  I just can't stomach Alistair disclaiming the throne after all that.  Oh well, squee is not everything.  *she tells herself little lies*  LOL

You don't have to leave him unchanged to get that kind of response, as I recall.
As to what Fiona or Maric may have wanted for Alistair (not that I think Fiona has much to do with Alistair as I don't think she's his mother , all bets were off when Alistair became the only known heir. Maric wouldn't want Mac Tir's on the throne after Loghain abandoned his son on the field, and I doubt that Fiona wanted her son to be a warden and die in the deep roads, either, so.....

[SurelyForth]

Book spoiler! Becoming a Grey Warden was an escape for Fiona. Not to get to deep into it, but she was very unhappy in the Orlesian Circle of Magi (like Alistair was unhappy in the Chantry) and becoming a Warden meant more freedom than she had ever known. If it was between Alistair having a long, miserable life or a short, marginally happier one, I think she'd want him to have the latter. /Book Spoiler!

I actually had two squee moments when I was playing- that line at his coronation and during the "not really a break-up" post-Landsmeet. It went something like this:

PC: Do what makes you happy.
Alistair: How novel. I think I will! Can you ever forgive me for almost breaking your heart?
PC: I don't know.
Alistair: Ah. I see how it is something something [hot] I'll take my punishment like a man. [/hot]
Me: Wow.
PC: *sigh* What would Mother say if she knew what I just agreed to?
Me: Don't care, I'm reloading to hear that again.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 05:56 .

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

Book spoiler! Becoming a Grey Warden was an escape for Fiona. Not to get to deep into it, but she was very unhappy in the Orlesian Circle of Magi (like Alistair was unhappy in the Chantry) and becoming a Warden meant more freedom than she had ever known. If it was between Alistair having a long, miserable life or a short, marginally happier one, I think she'd want him to have the latter. /Book Spoiler!

I actually had two squee moments when I was playing- that line at his coronation and during the "not really a break-up" post-Landsmeet. It went something like this:

PC: Do what makes you happy.
Alistair: How novel. I think I will! Can you ever forgive me for almost breaking your heart?
PC: I don't know.
Alistair: Ah. I see how it is something something [hot] I'll take my punishment like a man. [/hot]
Me: Wow.
PC: *sigh* What would Mother say if she knew what I just agreed to?
Me: Don't care, I'm reloading to hear that again.

LOL! I didn't think I'd be playing the mistress ending, but now I can see that I'm going to have to give it a try.
(Just to confirm--can't be HNF, right?)

A while ago, someone had a thread wondering if Alistair would have sent Goldana money if she survived endgame, by way of looking after his nieces and nephews. At the time, I said that I had no real opinion on it, that he might or he might not, but I got some dialogue last night that I hadn't seen before that made me think he wouldn't.

My party spend most of the game poor as church mice. There are sidequests and portions of main quests that we don't do for roleplaying reasons, and we only take some of the rewards. Because of that, we rarely have much gold at any one time, and it usually gets spent on poultice ingredients.

This time, it just so happened that we had much more gold than usual when we got to Goldana's house, and Alistair asked if I'd mind if he gave her 15 gold for his nieces and nephews. I said sure (difficult from a metagaming point of view, since I was sure we were throwing it away . It was interesting in that I got slightly different dialogue after that, but not worth 15 gold, not unless it pops up as a game mechanic in the future.

Anyway, when we left, Alistair called her not only a harpy, but a gold digging harpy, and said that he was sorry he's given her any money, so I'm now thinking no, Alistair definitely won'd be sending her money, or contacting her, after he takes the throne.

Just out of curiosity, I've never taken the option where the PC can mentions that Alistair is going to be king. How do Alistair and Goldana react to that?

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 mars 2010 - 06:01 .

[Sandtigress]

Alistair says "Right...thanks for reminding me" and I think things go back to the usual path after that. Goldanna just harps at him for being a prince blah blah blah like normal.

[SurelyForth]

Just out of curiosity, I've never taken the option where the PC can mentions that Alistair is going to be king. How do Alistair and Goldana react to that?

He's not too happy. He says something along the lines of "Yes, thanks for bringing *that* up." Doing his quest after the Landsmeet yields some different dialogue if he's king, but nothing too spectacular. He still has to ask you for money, though, which makes me laugh.

It's funny you should mention questionable side-quests. Since Alistair is usually my moral compass on these matters, I have a strict "if he doesn't disapprove, then I don't care" policy. I do have 9 companions and four armies to feed/supply and, if I end the Blight, no one will remember how I dumped those bodies down the Chantry Well, right? Right?

I might very well be starting Awakening under house arrest.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 06:12 .

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

Just out of curiosity, I've never taken the option where the PC can mentions that Alistair is going to be king. How do Alistair and Goldana react to that?

He's not too happy. He says something along the lines of "Yes, thanks for bringing *that* up." Doing his quest after the Landsmeet yields some different dialogue if he's king, but nothing too spectacular. He still has to ask you for money, though, which makes me laugh.

It's funny you should mention questionable side-quests. Since Alistair is usually my moral compass on these matters, I have a strict "if he doesn't disapprove, then I don't care" policy. I do have 9 companions and four armies to feed/supply and, if I end the Blight, no one will remember how I dumped those bodies down the Chantry Well, right? Right?

I might very well be starting Awakening under house arrest.

Lol! You just might.  I do look to Alistair for moral backup, but I also know that he can be surprisingly reticent. I figure that having given you permission to lead, he doesn't want to backseat unless he feels very strongly about it. And maybe he wants to see what you'll do....

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 mars 2010 - 06:19 .

[SurelyForth]

errant_knight wrote...

Lol! You just might.  I do look to Alistair for moral backup, but I also know that he can be surprisingly reticent. I figure that having given you permission to lead, he doesn't want to backseat unless he feels very strongly about it. And maybe he wants to see what you'll do....

I pretend like it's his allowance to us being Grey Wardens and, thus, doing whatever it takes to end the Blight. Or keep my companions rolling in grandmaster runes, as is actually the case.

Oh, and you can be his mistress as an HN. I imagine Morrigan would gladly smack you upside the head for not taking power when you can, but I'm ok with it.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 06:26 .

[goofygoff]

errant_knight wrote...

LOL! I didn't think I'd be playing the mistress ending, but now I can see that I'm going to have to give it a try.
(Just to confirm--can't be HNF, right?)

Actually, it might be possible.  My first HNF was dumped by an unhardened Alistair after I made him king but did not choose the "...and I will rule beside him" option.  So I'd assume you'd get the same opportunity to talk him into the mistress thing if you harden him, even as a HNF.



edit:  ninja'd!

Modifié par goofygoff, 04 mars 2010 - 06:29 .

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Lol! You just might.  I do look to Alistair for moral backup, but I also know that he can be surprisingly reticent. I figure that having given you permission to lead, he doesn't want to backseat unless he feels very strongly about it. And maybe he wants to see what you'll do....

I pretend like it's his allowance to us being Grey Wardens and, thus, doing whatever it takes to end the Blight. Or keep my companions rolling in grandmaster runes, as is actually the case.

Oh, and you can be his mistress as an HN. I imagine Morrigan would gladly smack you upside the head for not taking power when you can, but I'm ok with it.

Really? I got soundly dumped on the playthrough where I didn't make myself queen, and didn't seem to be able to avoid it. It was very heartrending. My PC eventually decided Alistair was right, but that didn't make it feel any better for either of them.

[SurelyForth]

errant_knight wrote...

Really? I got soundly dumped on the playthrough where I didn't make myself queen, and didn't seem to be able to avoid it. It was very heartrending. My PC eventually decided Alistair was right, but that didn't make it feel any better for either of them.

It's tricky. I usually take this route, even though it gets -8 approval (I make Duncan's shield work for for me):

Alistair: I have to face what this means. I can't run away from it any more.
PC: Who said we ever had a future?
Alistair: Maybe we didn't...(it's sad)...am I being too presumptuous?
PC: Why can't we continue this then? (paraphrase, it's the 2nd dialogue choice)
Alistair: You mean marry who I want, carry on with whomever I want?
PC: Do what makes you happy (or the persuade option, which I avoid)
Alistair: You're right! Can you ever forgive me?

And then you're in. I do the "Who said we ever had a future" route because I think, were I in that position, I would say something like that to deflect. The response is worth it, because you can get a sense that he's thought a lot about the relationship and it breaks his heart that you might not have.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 06:53 .

[nos_astra]

You can keep the relationship going without a persuasion check?

[errant_knight]

Huh. I didn't know that was possible. Pretty sketchy, though isn't it? Like all the endings. I can:

-let Alistair do the sacrifice, knowing that will put a Mac Tir on the throne,

-do the sacrifice myself, leaving Alistair alone and bereft,

-marry him, knowing I'm putting our happiness ahead of the Therin bloodline, risking civil war,

-become his mistress, knowing that while I'm allowing for the possibility of an heir, I'm convincing Alistair to do something he finds morally questionable for the sake of our happiness. (I know I do that with the ritual, too, but this seems different. I guess it isn't, really. With one, I'm putting our lives ahead of Fereldan, in the other, I'm putting our happiness ahead of his future queen's and Alistair's ethics....)



Hmm.... Choices, choices....

I'll definitely try this one though. I want to have several endings to take through Awakening. I'm glad you can do it with the HNF, though. The implications of not being able to do so weren't pretty.

[SurelyForth]

klarabella wrote...

You can keep the relationship going without a persuasion check?

Yep!

I actually do not have a problem with the mistress ending because (if you go through the conversation the way I usually do) there's a point at which you can agree with him after he suggests that staying with you would be unfair for you and his future wife and you lose more approval (and it ends the relationship, so...reload!).  It's clear from his reaction that, once the idea is in his head, he struggles mightily with ending the relationship, moreso than he does before.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 04 mars 2010 - 07:24 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...
LOL! I didn't think I'd be playing the mistress ending, but now I can see that I'm going to have to give it a try.
(Just to confirm--can't be HNF, right?)

I remember thinking that my Dalish elf mistress ending was perhaps the most romantic Alistair playthrough I had had.  It was partly because, oddly enough, I felt like she was most compatible with him of any of my characters.  HNF grew up a pampered noble.  DE grew up the daughter of a keeper but living rough, and after she got over the initial prejudices, saw Alistair as a true peer and companion.  Especially because she came to accept that she couldn't ever return to clan life, and that the Grey Wardens were her new "clan."  Oh, the scene I thought out in my head when Tamlen re-appeared... I wish there were a bit more dialogue with Alistair there, but I'm glad you at least get something.

A while ago, someone had a thread wondering if Alistair would have sent Goldana money if she survived endgame, by way of looking after his nieces and nephews. At the time, I said that I had no real opinion on it, that he might or he might not, but I got some dialogue last night that I hadn't seen before that made me think he wouldn't.

I have thought about this.  I believe that my HNF and Alistair would quietly help Goldanna, for her children's sake.  There would be limits, it would be more like providing opportunities rather than just dropping gold sovereigns on the doorstep, but family is too important to both of them not to do anything.  Even if Goldanna didn't deserve it.

On a recent playthrough, I did Alistair's quest much later than usual and thus my PC had higher Coercion.  On the Persuade check where you say "Goldanna, Alistair came here to find his family," she actually softened a smidge!!  I was floored.  There was also a more moving response from Alistair.  Goldanna falters a bit, says "alright, but I can't think about things like that when I have 5 mouths to feed," and Alistair gives a very sincere vow that he will help her when he can.

Just out of curiosity, I've never taken the option where the PC can mentions that Alistair is going to be king. How do Alistair and Goldana react to that?

That doesn't impress Goldanna at all.  As others said, Alistair just says (sarcastically) "thanks for reminding me" and promises to help her in the future.

[errant_knight]

Addai67 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
LOL! I didn't think I'd be playing the mistress ending, but now I can see that I'm going to have to give it a try.
(Just to confirm--can't be HNF, right?)

I remember thinking that my Dalish elf mistress ending was perhaps the most romantic Alistair playthrough I had had.  It was partly because, oddly enough, I felt like she was most compatible with him of any of my characters.  HNF grew up a pampered noble.  DE grew up the daughter of a keeper but living rough, and after she got over the initial prejudices, saw Alistair as a true peer and companion.  Especially because she came to accept that she couldn't ever return to clan life, and that the Grey Wardens were her new "clan."  Oh, the scene I thought out in my head when Tamlen re-appeared... I wish there were a bit more dialogue with Alistair there, but I'm glad you at least get something.

A while ago, someone had a thread wondering if Alistair would have sent Goldana money if she survived endgame, by way of looking after his nieces and nephews. At the time, I said that I had no real opinion on it, that he might or he might not, but I got some dialogue last night that I hadn't seen before that made me think he wouldn't.

I have thought about this.  I believe that my HNF and Alistair would quietly help Goldanna, for her children's sake.  There would be limits, it would be more like providing opportunities rather than just dropping gold sovereigns on the doorstep, but family is too important to both of them not to do anything.  Even if Goldanna didn't deserve it.

On a recent playthrough, I did Alistair's quest much later than usual and thus my PC had higher Coercion.  On the Persuade check where you say "Goldanna, Alistair came here to find his family," she actually softened a smidge!!  I was floored.  There was also a more moving response from Alistair.  Goldanna falters a bit, says "alright, but I can't think about things like that when I have 5 mouths to feed," and Alistair gives a very sincere vow that he will help her when he can.

Just out of curiosity, I've never taken the option where the PC can mentions that Alistair is going to be king. How do Alistair and Goldana react to that?

That doesn't impress Goldanna at all.  As others said, Alistair just says (sarcastically) "thanks for reminding me" and promises to help her in the future.

Really? Goldana softened? On my last playthrough, I had all my coercion and had cunning at around 43 or 46, can't remember which, and I got none of that on the same persuade. Do you remember what your cunning level was?

SurelyForth wrote...
I actually do not have a problem with the mistress ending because (if you go through the conversation the way I usually do) there's a point at which you can agree with him after he suggests that staying with you would be unfair for you and his future wife and you lose more approval (and it ends the relationship, so...reload!).  It's clear from his reaction that, once the idea is in his head, he struggles mightily with ending the relationship, moreso than he does before.

That's interesting, maybe Alistair's feelings about this aren't quite as black and white as I thought. Hmm.... *requires thought*

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 mars 2010 - 07:42 .